i give buck a slight edge because i really appreciate a catcher that can call a good game, and he's vastly better than olivo at that... he's pretty handy behind the plate when it comes to smothering balls in the dirt, too. we all know how terrible his arm is, there's no defending that... but he has shown a few glimpses at the plate of being a competent hitter. so i'll say buck.

You can't consider that a more important stat than the team winning more games and the pitching staff having a better ERA with Buck in the game.

When they both have less than 10, "almost twice as many" is kinda misleading. Olivo has 4 more.

Olivo does have a better batting average, but his OBP is .291. Buck's is .322.

The only stats in Olivo's favor are thrown-out base runners and the fact he has 4 more HRs and 1 more RBI. Absolutely everything else, including rather important ones like wins and ERA, point to Buck.

If the "stats don't lie", you're backing the wrong horse.

outfielders are not important?

sorry, i was unaware that someone recently decided that only one of the nine players on a baseball field is important. when did this change take place?

When they began using the DH.

Buck is the better catcher, Olivio is a MUCH better hitter. Buck ****ing sucks at hitting. every once in a while he'll get hot but not for long.

John Buck's rookie card's value is HUGE.

Wow, excellent job taking the statement that catchers are more important than utility outfielders and crafting it into a claim that outfielders are not important at all. I was going to ask why you havent bothered to refute any of the statistics that prove Buck, while not that great himself, is clearly better than Olivo. But obviously you were too busy creating that strawman.

The only thing that anyone here can score for Olivo is that he is a better hitter, but even that is hardly true. Olivo has a career batting average of .241. Buck has a career average of .239. Wow, look at the amazing difference.

Olivo has a career OBP of .276, which is dreadful. Buck has an OBP of .300 for his career. So even if his career batting average is a whopping .002 less than Olivo, he still gets on base far more often. And that has continued to hold true this season. Olivo has a career OPS (on-base plus slugging) of .688. Buck is .704.

Anyone who is claiming that Olvio is a much better hitter than Buck, at the end of the day your argument boils down to this: in this half season so far, Olivo has a higher BA by .009 points, he has 4 more HRs, and has 1 more run batted in. My, what a landslide. Oh, and dont forget, Buck actually gets on base more.

The only reasonable argument for giving Olivo more time over Buck is that Olivo is clearly better at throwing out base runners. Get a stopwatch, tell a baseball manager that he needs to make a switch at catcher for that reason, and let us know how long he laughs.

I want to hear tk13's take on this.

Miguel Olivo's VORP is 7.8
John Buck's VORP is 1.8

Buck's OPS+ is 87
Olivio's OPS+ is 100

Olivo's career OBP is below .300

That is horrendous. He had a hot stretch this year, and hits lefties pretty well, but Buck has a higher career OBP, OPS, has hit more homeruns in a single year than any of Olivo's years, and our pitchers have a full run lower ERA with Buck behind the plate. Plus the fact that the Royals win at a much higher clip with Buck behind the plate than Olivo, and I think this is pretty simple. Buck is not good, but Olivo really isn't good. The only argument against Buck is this year's % of runners thrown out, which is horrible. He has been decent at that in years past. Plus, for all the runners Olivo has thrown out, he has allowed 5x that many to advance by simply not catching the ball, so the runner takes an extra base. Seriously, watch how many balls Olivo drops.

Not really defending Olivo, as I've maintained that both he and Buck aren't the best, but...

From the All-Star break in '07 until now, Buck has hit 8 HRs. His first half of '07 seems to be anomaly.

Also, to claim that Buck blocks well is laughable. Like most ML catchers, he usually stabs at the ball and when he does try to get his body in front, which isn't often, the five hole is almost always open, and this is where many of his pitchers' "wild pitches" end up. Olivo generally does a better job of squaring up the ball.

why are we talking about career statistics now? i don't care what either one of them has done in the past. if you watch the games, you can just tell that miguel olivo is better at everything. john buck can't hit a pitch faster than 90 mph. all you have to do to strike him out is throw 3 straight fastballs. he can't hit, he can't run, he can't throw, he can't even catch all that well, and his job description is CATCHER. i can't think of any reason why anybody would like him at all. he is such a terrible, terrible baseball player, and i can't believe that anybody is defending him.

update: john buck goes 0-4 with 2 more strikeouts tonight. batting average is now down to .247.

Feel free to keep us all updated on his batting average, but...