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Saccopoo 10-21-2009 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman (Post 6192258)
You make really sound, solid points.

I got into a "debate" with another poster on another thread about this same subject, but the debate centered on Trent Williams.

I purposely called Trent Williams a "RT in a spread offense" numerous time, and he never once corrected me.


I tell you this, cause I think it's far more enjoyable to debate this with someone who actually brings some knowledge and intelligience ot the debate.

But I digress.

To the question at hand, it is my contention that a playmaker in the secondary at safety is now a premium in this league with the rules so slanted to offense, especially in teh passing game.

Guys like troy Polamaulu, Reed, and Sanders, neuatralize that advantage, to some extent.

With that in mind, I'm taking Taylor Mays.

he's a guy that hits like a LB in run support, and who has the speed and physical presense to take away the middle, including the deep middle, in pass defense.
A ball hawking Eric Berry would be my second choice.

I'd like to address the O-Line with Kris O'Dowd in the second round.
If we could land George Selvie in the early second and O'Dowd later, with the Falcon pick, followed by Jason Fox (RT) or Dan Williams (NT), in the fourth, those pisks would go along way to addressing our needs.

The thing is, I think that you can get a ball hawking safety and a big hitting safety later on in the draft, whereas you won't find the true, elite level LT beyond Okung. I think he's it. I love Beadles to death and think that he'd be a guy like Tait, who will be one of the best RT's in the game and can play LT very effectively, but still a guy you want at RT in the end because of his strength and nasty attitude.

Mays just doesn't show the ball skills (at least what I've seen) you want in the NFL. He'd be a guy I would pick if I had Darren Sharper or Ed Reed on my team. A guy that you could let freelance and make plays from sideline to sideline and from the box and back. However, the Chiefs don't have a guy like that. I understand that it's easy to get caught up in the physical skills potential of a guy like that, but he's going to be caught up in a lot of zone busters offensively in the NFL that will take advantage of his aggressiveness.

Mays is a guy to fall in love with draft wise because he has these physical measurables that are so far off the chart that you have to believe that he's going to be the best thing ever at his position. Problem is, there is a guy like that almost every single draft. This year there are two with Mays and Dunlap (if he come out). Think Gholston, Vernon Davis, Mike Mamula, and I'll even do a recent Chiefs reference with Kawika Mitchell.

I think that a solid ILB would do more for this team than a run oriented free safety would, and you could get one cheaper than what Mays will cost. And if you wanted ball hawks at safety, there's Stuckey at KU at the SS position that could be had in the 2nd round (and I don't want to sound like a Big 12 homer or anything, but Stuckey at SS has shown a lot of game time speed and read/react skills that I haven't seen from Mays, though admittedly I have only seen two USC games this season and three from last season) and Robert Johnson at Utah (whose had 4 interceptions and a TD in the past two weeks alone, plus a couple of huge end zone pass breakups) at the FS spot that will be available from about the 4th and below.

If I was picking on my Chiefs need scenario that I outlined earlier, it would be like this positionally (And these are guys that the Chiefs have a chance at with their picks at the positions of need/value so the "best" guy isn't always the first guy):

OL (potential first round pick, but if not, needs to be addressed a couple of times in the draft):
1. Russ Okung, LT; OSU (6'5", 305 lb.)
2. Kris O'Dowd, C; USC (6'5", 295 lb.) (Underclassman)
3. Zane Beadles, LT; Utah (6'4", 315 lb.)
4. Ciron Black, LT; LSU (6'4", 330 lb.)
5. Matt Tenant, C; Boston College (6'4", 290 lb.)
6. Jason Fox, LT; Miami (6'6", 300 lb.)
7. Mike Johnson, G; Alabama (6'6", 305 lb.)
8. John Estes, C; Hawaii (6'2", 295 lb.)
9. Mike Iupati, G; Idaho (6'5", 330 lb.)
10. Eric Olsen, C; Notre Dame (6'3", 295 lb.)

TE (Could be a high second or nothing at all considering that they traded up for O'Connell. It is a position of need though):
1. Jermaine Gresham, OU; 6'6", 260 lb.
2. Dennis Pitta, BYU; 6'5", 250 lb.
2. Ed Dickson, Oregon; 6'4", 240 lb.
4. Anthony McCoy, USC; 6'5", 250 lb.
5. Richard Dickson, LSU; 6'3", 245 lb.

S (Potential first rounder, second, third, whathaveyou - they need safeties, and there is a lot of good ones in this draft considering that guys like Robert Johnson won't get looked at until the 4/5 point and down):
1. Eric Berry, SS, Tenn; 5'10", 200 lb. (Underclassman)
2. Darrell Stuckey, SS, KU; 6'0", 205 lb.
3. Taylor Mays, FS, USC; 6'4", 235 lb.
4. Myron Rolle, SS; FSU; 6'2", 220 lb.
5. Major Wright, FS; Florida; 6'0", 200 lb. (Underclassman)

ILB (Please, please, please pick us a decent inside guy):
1. Brandon Spikes, Florida; 6'3", 255 lb.
2. Rolando McCain, Alabama; 6'4", 250 lb. (Underclassman)
3. Joe Pawelek, Baylor; 6'2", 240 lb.
4. Daryl Washington, TCU; 6'3", 230 lb.
5. Sean Lee, Penn State; 6'2", 235 lb.

OLB (for the Chiefs 3-4 alignment they need an outside guy and a strong side guy to groom under Vrabel):
1. Eric Norwood, South Carolina; 6'0", 255 lb.
2. Jerry Hughes, TCU; 6'2", 260 lb.
3. George Selvie, South Florida; 6'4", 250 lb.
4. AJ Edds (Sam), Iowa; 6'4", 245 lb.
5. Rodderick Muckleroy (Sam), Texas; 6'2", 235 lb.

- There seem to be a lot of good potential rush ends in this draft. A guy like Von Miller of Texas A&M is just obliterating people this year. Sergio Kindle of Texas is picking it up. Ricky Sapp is a beast at Clemson, Lindsey Witten at UConn started the season on a tear, etc. Edds and Muckleroy are really good strong side LB prospects.

PR/KR (Dante anyone?)
1. Brandon James, RB/WR, Florida; 5'7", 185 lb.
2. Brandon Banks, WR, KSU; 5'7", 160 lb.
3. Noel Devine, RB, West Virgina; 5'8", 175 lb.
4. LeRoy Vann, CB; Central Florida; 5'9", 185 lb.
5. AJ Jefferson, CB; Fresno State; 6'0", 190 lb.

WR (considering Bowe as the #1 guy):
1. Arrileous Benn, Illinois, 6'2", 215 lb. (Underclassman)
2. Eric Decker, Minnesota; 6'3", 215 lb.
3. Brandon LaFell, LSU; 6'3", 210 lb.
4. Mike Williams, Syracuse; 6'2", 205 lb. (Underclassman)
5. Dez Briscoe, KU; 6'3", 200 lb.

CB (As bad as Maurice Leggett has been this year, this could be a first rounder or anything after):
1. Ras-I Dowling, Virginia; 6'2", 200 lb. (Underclassman)
2. Joe Hayden, Florida; 5'11", 185 lb. (Underclassman)
3. Brandon Ghee, Wake Forest; 6'0", 190 lb.
4. Pat Robinson, FSU; 5'11", 190 lb.
5. Kyle Wilson, Boise State; 5'10", 185 lb.

DT (with the trade of Tank this would move up about four slots in terms of need):
1. Boo Robinson, Wake Forest; 6'2", 325 lb.
2. Terrance Cody, Alabama; 6'5", 365 lb.
3. Dan Williams, Tennesee; 6'3", 315 lb.
4. Demarcus Granger, OU; 6'3", 310 lb.
5. Torrell Troup, Central Florida; 6'3", 320 lb.

FB (Not so much a position of need as the Chiefs are running a lot of single back sets):
1. Garrett Graham, Wisconsin; 6'3", 245 lb.
2. Rashawn Jackson, Virginia; 6'1", 255 lb.
3. Dorrin Dickson, Pitt; 6'2", 235 lb.
4. Matt Clapp, Oklahoma; 6'3", 235 lb.
5. Cory Jackson, Maryland; 6'1", 245 lb.

RB (If healthy, the Chiefs are pretty solid at RB, but a jettisoned LJ after this season could mean that they might be looking for a new bruiser type back):
1. Jon Dwyer, Georgia Tech; 6'0", 225 lb. (Underclassman)
2. Evan Royster, Penn State; 6'1", 215 lb. (Underclassman)
3. Charles Scott, LSU; 5'11", 235 lb.
4. Toby Gerhart, Stanford; 6'1", 235 lb.
5. Montario Hardesty, Tennessee; 6'0", 215 lb.

Direckshun 10-28-2009 07:49 PM

1. S Eric Berry, Tennessee

Goes without saying.

2. C Kris O'Dowd, USC

The middle of this offensive line is the most of our troubles this upcoming season, at both guard positions and at center. Waters can hold the fort for another season, but the Chiefs might want to consider youngsters Darryl Harris and Colin Brown a shot. Nonetheless, this team has no prospects at center. I would still take Boo Robinson with this pick if it were up to me (Robinson may fall out of the first day...), but O'Dowd is so clearly the superior center in this draft that it would be treason to pass him up.

2. OT Anthony Davis, Rutgers

As much as I'd like to see an upgrade at guard, this team has a couple guard prospects that it can try out -- Harris, Brown, or even Ndukwe or Alleman deserve a shot. Maybe even Niswanger. This team has some options. What it doesn't have is any depth at the tackle positions. I'm not giving up on Albert on the left hand side just yet, but a talented blocker on the left side is necessary.

Davis can play any position along the offensive line. He was stellar as a guard, he was good as a left tackle. He is a 330 pounder who moves well, but he's not LT material. He would be perfectly suited for the right side. He also provides the OL with versatility.

3. NT Boo Robinson, Wake Forest

I would take Boo with our first 2nd rounder if we had the shot. However! I've read a recent mock saying that Boo would be close to a bottom 2nd, top 3rd type talent. I disagree. I think he is a big body that can penetrate into the backfield. He has a proven track record, and is as athletic and as active as any big nose available this year.

4. OLB Dexter Davis, Arizona State

This is a pretty good draft for pass rushing value. Top-end talent is weak, but there will still be a bevy of talented guys by the 4th and 5th. Davis may be among them, as his production has been very consistent and very solid. I'm going to take a shot on a pure pass rusher any day of the week. Davis is a double-digit sack guy waiting to happen in the 4th.

5. OLB Jason Worilds, Virginia Tech

This is a selection based on measurables. I like Worilds a lot, but I think he has some upside.

5. WR/KR Brandon Banks, Kansas State

Teeny tiny speed demon, but K-State can churn these guys out from time to time. I love him as a kick returner -- 4.2 speed with a freaking 30+ yard return average. Love it.

5. CB Kurt Coleman, Ohio State

I like corners from Ohio State, and we need better depth there. Washington needs to come around, dammit.

Direckshun 10-28-2009 07:56 PM

QB: Cassel, Croyle, Gutierrez
RB: Johnson, Charles, Williams
FB: Cox

WR: Bowe, Bradley, Wade, Long, Lawrence
TE: Ryan, O'Connell, Cottam

LT: Albert, Ndukwe
LG: Waters, Smith
C: O'Dowd, Smith
RG: Brown, Harris
RT: Davis, Richardson

DE: Dorsey, Magee
NT: Robinson, Edwards
DE: Jackson, Gilberry

OLB: Hali, Davis
ILB: Johnson, Mays
ILB: Williams, Belcher
OLB: Vrabel, Worilds

CB: Flowers, Carr, Leggett, Coleman, Washington
S: Berry, Brown, McGraw, Morgan

K: Succup
P: Colquitt
LS: Gafford
KR: Banks
PR: Wade

Assuming this anchors down the trenches on both sides, I would then beginning emphasizing WR and pass rushers in the next two drafts...

Buehler445 10-28-2009 08:00 PM

I like that draft. With the transition to 3-4s, I really doubt Robinson will last to the 3rd. If we could get him there, it would be fantastical.

Direckshun 10-29-2009 04:40 PM

At this point, after tinkering with a bunch of drafts in this thread, here is my October 2009 ideal mock right now.

My goals:
  • I largely throw out best player available because I honestly have no ****ing clue who will be the best player available anywhere. The Draft turns into a mad scramble halfway into the second round. So I projected players to a likely round and made my selection.
  • This draft is intended to be a meat-and-potatoes draft, designed to make our trenches that much better. Pioli has eight picks -- five of them go to the trenches, both in offensive line (2) and in pass rushers (2).
  • All defensive players were selected primarily by their ability to get into the backfield. I believe you can teach defensive players to play the run -- pass-rushing is much harder to learn.
  • Even though the biggest holes on this team may be WR and CB following this draft, I know Pioli will be in the FA market for both.
  • This draft is pretty solid in the midrounds with passrushers, so I used that to my advantage.
  • This draft also has about three players that are insanely fast but incredibly little. They all are prime targets as kick returners, and will likely be available in the 5th.
  • As long as this draft is not a massive bust, I will spend the next two drafts focusing on primo WRs and pass rushers.
  • I want four immediate starters, at least one additional eventual starter, and a couple consistent contributors. Of these starters, at least a couple have All Pro potential.

1. S Eric Berry, Tennessee

I prefer Berry over Mays. Mays is a gifted talent much like LaRon Landry is. But like Landry, I worry that he's just a scheme-changer, rather than a team-changer, if that makes any sense. The Chiefs defense can operate more freely thanks to Mays, but there wouldn't be a complete attitude overhaul like there would be with Berry who I view as an Ed Reed, Brian Dawkins leadership type. Great safeties make phenomenal defensive captains, and I see Berry gripping that mantle as aggressively as possible.

2. C Kris O'Dowd, USC

O'Dowd is just made to succeed in the NFL. Of all my picks, this is pie-in-the-sky material, because there's a good chance a team with fewer needs will go with O'Dowd. I think O'Dowd fixes the biggest problem on our OL: the center. Niswanger was smart, but not football smart. O'Dowd is a smart blocker that anchors well, and won't consistently get shoved back into Cassel's face. If O'Dowd is available at the top of the first, I'd put the Chiefs top priority at obtaining him.

I put considerable effort into upgrading the center and tackle positions because we have zero depth there. The guard position is weak too, currently; Waters has had a rough year and our right guard position has been pathetic with Goff struggling and Alleman not doing much better. However the Chiefs have a lot more options at guard than they do at either center or tackle. Colin Brown and Darryl Harris are both players that have potential. Wade Smith can play either position well enough. Ndukwe hasn't even gotten his chance just yet. So the Chiefs have the tools to tinker there.

2. NT Boo Robinson, Wake Forest

I do not believe the Chiefs would benefit too much from a two-down NT. The best NTs in this league are able to go three downs and are athletic enough to make noise in the backfield, not just anchor well. Robinson is an unusual talent, in that he's nearly 330 lbs and still athletic enough to get into the backfield -- really, he reminds me a bit of BJ Raji. Raji is not going to be a block of granite type, but he will definitely occupy blockers.

3. OT Gabe Carimi, Wisconsin

Carimi is just a beast of a man (6'8", 320+) and is a renouned run blocker who is swift enough to protect against speedier rushers. I'm not saying he's swift -- he's swift enough. Carimi would start today at right tackle.

4. OLB Dexter Davis, Arizona State

Davis is a pure passrusher, that seems to be all he does. And the Chiefs are shopping for pin-your-ears back types in the midrounds. Davis would be the best of the bunch. A decorated history in the Pac 10 of beating really good offensive lines for double-digit sacks every year. Davis is a lunchpail guy.

5. OLB Daniel Te'o-Nesheim, Washington

Te'o-Nesheim's production has also be consistently good in the very tough Pac 10. I think he's less likely than Davis to breakout, but this is another guy who does nothing else well other than get into the backfield. Could be a pure sack specialist?

5. WR/KR Brandon Banks, Kansas State

Banks is the speed demon I think this team should invest in in the 5th round. The Chiefs need a great kick returner, and the tiny Banks sports 4.2 speed with a 30+ yard kick return average. The rules changing on kick returns means pure athleticism and speed is more important than ever. Banks will pay for himself after a few years of solid returning.

5. RB Anthony Dixon, Mississippi State

A player like Dixon will be a must once LJ is released. Free agency always has a couple guys who can fill in, but if the athletic, 240 lb. Dixon survives this far, the Chiefs would be doing themselves a favor by grabbing him. Charles and Williams will be leading the rushing attack next year, and the Chiefs could use a big guy with a fullback's body who can plow through short-yardage situations.

Direckshun 10-29-2009 04:42 PM

QB: Cassel, Croyle, Gutierrez
RB: Charles, Williams, Dixon
FB: Cox

WR: Bowe, Bradley, Wade, Long, Lawrence
TE: Ryan, O'Connell, Cottam

LT: Albert, Ndukwe
LG: Waters, Smith
C: O'Dowd, Smith
RG: Brown, Harris
RT: Carimi, Richardson

DE: Dorsey, Magee
NT: Robinson, Edwards
DE: Jackson, Gilberry

OLB: Hali, Davis
ILB: Johnson, Mays
ILB: Williams, Belcher
OLB: Vrabel, Te'o-Nesheim

CB: Flowers, Carr, Leggett, Washington
S: Berry, Brown, McGraw, Morgan

K: Succup
P: Colquitt
LS: Gafford
KR: Banks
PR: Wade

Saccopoo 10-29-2009 07:31 PM

I like the latest one, other than the two OLB's in back to back picks in the fourth and fifth rounds. I'd like to see some help at the ILB spot or a guy to play the Sam versus two rush ends.

Ralphy Boy 11-03-2009 10:30 PM

Okay, I typed a rather long reply that got jacked up for some reason.
Here's the short version.
I like your mock, just don't see us going safety with as high of a 1st as we'll have. I'm trying to view everything thru their (Haley/Pioli) eyes. Big investment in Cassel & Haley was hired because of his offensive background. Combine that with horrible o-line play and I think we go LT with Okung and move Albert to guard.
I think we'll make some moves in FA to give us some options in the draft and we'll be focused on the lines and pass rusher.
FA's = Mike Gandy, LT of Arizona, moved to RT in KC. Was with Haley for 5 years both in Chicago & Arizona. Not likely to command much in FA.
Gabe Watson, NT also of Arizona, played for Clancy and could be signed cheaply.
Ray Edwards, DE of Minnesota, basically a pass rusher who is benefiting from playing opposite of Jared Allen but heading into FA, Minnesota isn't going to pay him after they just paid JA. Would be asked to rush the passer from the OLB spot here.
Ryan Pickett, NT of Green Bay. They drafted Raji to replace him and won't spend to keep him. He starts with Watson & Edwards fighting it out for the backup spot.
1st = Okung, LT, Oklahoma State. Adding him totally transforms our line, moving Albert to RG, or LG and moving Waters to RG.
2a = Eric Norwood, DE/OLB, South Carolina. Pass rusher that may not fall this far.
2b = Matt Tennant, C, Boston College. Something tells me there'll be a run on Centers. O'Dowd doesn't fall this far and I don't think Wisniewski will either. I think O'Dowd goes late 1st and since he's not there, they think they'll get Wisniewski with this pick, but he's gone too.
3 = Arrelious Benn, WR, Illinois, Crappy QB play in a bad offense has killed his stock and I think he'll continue to fall even though he's probably worthy of a 2nd.
4 = Dennis Pitta, TE, BYU or if he's gone Garrett Graham TE, Wisconsin.
Don't care to guess beyond here. Our O-line would be much improved rather quickly and with improved NT play and the maturing of TJ/Dorsey our whole D would be vastly improved.


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