Originally Posted by Herzig

Don't forget the current war in Iraq. No weapons of mass destruction...the premise or "excuse" for the war in the first place. Saddam was a real big threat to us...yeah right...that's why we took over and dismantled the whole country's millitary in less than 3 weeks. What huge collosal mistake/mess that place is now. I don't really see democracy working there for long time if ever. We gave the entire world a real good reason to hate us about 2 years ago IMO.

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

I can't believe all the anti-Catholic vitriol on the internet. Every forum I come to it eventually rears it's ugly head. I mean, people REVEL in their hatred of the Church, and most of those people don't really understand what the Church really believes and teaches. They simply gobble up whatever some Fundy tells them about the evils of the Church. The fact that the Church has done herself some bad damage in the past of course does not help it. But what I find interesting is that we (Yup, evil Catholic checking in) have had bad bishops, priests and ayuh, even Popes, yet the Church herself survives. Why? Because the Church as an institution is right. It's some of the people who run it who are fallible. Quit crapping on the Church. Her history is recognized and acknowleged by her and her members. The wrongs of the past will never go away, but neither will the righteousness of the Church itself. Again, hate it all you want, but if the church falls, back up and run...

Originally Posted by C-Mac

First off the issues are with the institution and its leaders...not lay people. Just because your church and leaders are corrupt, no one is saying that you are a "evil Catholic", only you are. The problem I see is that you have not lived long enough, researched enough, expierenced enough to get a good feel of what the Catholic church has been about thru out its history. Just for the record, in all the industrailized nations, church attendance is steadily decreasing and many churches are being closed.

Originally Posted by Jenson71

Today I listened to a talk about the Catholic religion and part of it dealed with the Pope - John Paul II. Isn't he amazing? The Pope is one of my heroes. He's so unbelievably good. This thread is a tribute thread to the living saint.

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

To say that the issue is not with the lay people makes no logical sense. If the church is corrupt, than it's members must be imbiciles, or condone the behavior. This is why Catholics take it personally. We ain't happy about the failures of our leadership, but that is not what is being attacked. What is being attacked is the institution itself, as you just stated. We believe in the institution. If you attack something that someone believes in, they will rise to defend it. The intsitution. Not the actions....

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

How the heck old do you think I am? Please don't lecture me on history...I'm not some bright eyed Catholic high school kid. I can't for the life of me figure out where you got that I am. BTW, the "evil Catholic" bit was tounge and cheek. Sorry 'bout that.......

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

Not at all. Nobody is justifying it. Name me one person who has said that these things are justifyable. You can't cuz people don't. People grasp at statistics about other denominations having the same if not more trouble with it because the attacks make it sound like the Catholic Church is the ONLY church out there that has these problems. But nobody is justifying it at all...

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

I can't believe all the anti-Catholic vitriol on the internet. Every forum I come to it eventually rears it's ugly head. I mean, people REVEL in their hatred of the Church, and most of those people don't really understand what the Church really believes and teaches. They simply gobble up whatever some Fundy tells them about the evils of the Church. The fact that the Church has done herself some bad damage in the past of course does not help it. But what I find interesting is that we (Yup, evil Catholic checking in) have had bad bishops, priests and ayuh, even Popes, yet the Church herself survives. Why? Because the Church as an institution is right. It's some of the people who run it who are fallible.

I am sick and tired of hearing about the priest and alter boy scandal. People love to make fun of it, but a simple google search will illustrate that the problem is actually MORE pervasive in Protestant churches. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a total mess, I can't even begin to go there. Does that make it right? Of COURSE not. But to sit there and gleefully crap all over the Catholic church for it's problems while totally ignoring the problems of other Christian denominations is intelectually dishonest at best. Sadly, it is also typical.

What people don't understand is that there is a ferverant NEED for the anti-God crowd in the world to take out the Catholic Church. Why? Because if you can take down the Catholics, the rest of Christianity will crumble as well. This is why Catholicism is a huge target. Satan needs to kill it. Sadly, Christ himself stated that the gates of Hell itself will not prevail against His Church, and try as he might for 2000 years, Satan still cannot prevail.

Quit crapping on the Church. Her history is recognized and acknowleged by her and her members. The wrongs of the past will never go away, but neither will the righteousness of the Church itself. Again, hate it all you want, but if the church falls, back up and run...

Originally Posted by C-Mac

Just because your church and leaders are corrupt, no one is saying that you are a "evil Catholic", only you are.

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

I can't believe all the anti-Catholic vitriol on the internet. Every forum I come to it eventually rears it's ugly head. I mean, people REVEL in their hatred of the Church, and most of those people don't really understand what the Church really believes and teaches

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

I They simply gobble up whatever some Fundy tells them about the evils of the Church.

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

But what I find interesting is that we (Yup, evil Catholic checking in) have had bad bishops, priests and ayuh, even Popes, yet the Church herself survives. Why? Because the Church as an institution is right. It's some of the people who run it who are fallible.

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

I am sick and tired of hearing about the priest and alter boy scandal. People love to make fun of it, but a simple google search will illustrate that the problem is actually MORE pervasive in Protestant churches. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a total mess, I can't even begin to go there. Does that make it right? Of COURSE not. But to sit there and gleefully crap all over the Catholic church for it's problems while totally ignoring the problems of other Christian denominations is intelectually dishonest at best. Sadly, it is also typical.

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

What people don't understand is that there is a ferverant NEED for the anti-God crowd in the world to take out the Catholic Church. Why? Because if you can take down the Catholics, the rest of Christianity will crumble as well.

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

Satan needs to kill it. Sadly, Christ himself stated that the gates of Hell itself will not prevail against His Church, and try as he might for 2000 years, Satan still cannot prevail.

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

Quit crapping on the Church. Her history is recognized and acknowleged by her and her members. The wrongs of the past will never go away, but neither will the righteousness of the Church itself. Again, hate it all you want, but if the church falls, back up and run...

Originally Posted by Boise_Chief

Yeah I figured you knew about it...... have you thought of the number of lives lost and just think in two or three years blood will be fine. Btw those disfellowshiped for blood will still be DF'd

Originally Posted by Over-Head

As an ex- witness myself, I chose to harbor no ill feelings towards them. I, after almost 25 years just felt that it was not right for me.
That and the fact my congregation overseer was about the biggest hypocrite on the face of the earth.
But still I didn’t let the actions of one man or body of elders decide my choice for leaving them, I did it after carefully weighing all options, and thoughts I had developed as a child then on through my adult life.
My biggest obstacle was the fact they keep you very close-minded to ANYTHING BUT THEIR TEACHINGS.
-DO NOT suggest post secondary education (they figure the bible will teach you everything you need to know, so you can go “pioneering”)
-and basically want you to live “within” today’s society but be completely separate from it.
Sure I went “out in service”..(the knock on the door you get when one of them offers you a Watchtower and Awake), did bible readings, heck at one time I was even a “Ministerial Servant”…(liken it to a Deacon in the Catholic faith, 1 step away from being a priest)
But then reality set in, and I just found I could not maintain “their” expectations, so I left.
I was never DF’d mind you, but something tells me if they knew I converted to Catholicism last year I’d be ear marked as an apostate.
I left about 10 years ago, so I felt no need to bother letting them know, I figure if they ain’t got the hint by now, why bother.

The blood issue is based on a passage from (you’ll have to excuse me here it’s been a long time years) Ezekiel (if I remember correctly) where it says in part
…”And if you should keep the command of abstaining from blood, good health to you”
Like any religion they have faith based on interoperation of the Holy Scriptures this being one of them.
.
The JW’s started in Up state NY when Charles Taze Russell after listening outside a basement window joined a “study groupie of the bible”, found he could “interrupt it” and thus the whole JW structure was built.
(This BTW can be backed up in the “History of the Jehovah’s Witness” a publication that came out about 10-12 years ago during their 100 anniversary)

But I think more than anything what got to me about them was the fact that they honestly believe EVERY OTHER RELIGION out there is WRONG, and they ain’t to slow in tell you either.

Originally Posted by gochiefs

Yep, great post.

I left because I'm a lazy bastard and wanted to watch football on Sundays, mostly. :)

Originally Posted by Over-Head

No you left due to the fact you’re a misguided hateful little turd who even once started a thread which contained a phrase that went something like this

…”Since O-H, and a few others are survivors of this hatful religion”…


And trust me ass wipe, if the search function were working I’d make you eat your last post.

Originally Posted by Slayer Diablo

Show me in the bible where it says the Christians' god wanted there to be a Pope or Bishops....and after you do that, take your findings and place them on Martin Luther's grave.

Even if I were still religious at all, I would have to agree with Martin Luther...there shouldn't be a Pope, bishops, etc. Also, he had a pretty good point when he said that the antichrist is the one who puts himself in an ivory tower surrounded by luxury after Jesus said that the way to get into heaven was to be poor. As I recall, M.L. directly called the pope the antichrist many times because of this conclusion.

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

I can't believe all the anti-Catholic vitriol on the internet. Every forum I come to it eventually rears it's ugly head. I mean, people REVEL in their hatred of the Church, and most of those people don't really understand what the Church really believes and teaches. They simply gobble up whatever some Fundy tells them about the evils of the Church. The fact that the Church has done herself some bad damage in the past of course does not help it. But what I find interesting is that we (Yup, evil Catholic checking in) have had bad bishops, priests and ayuh, even Popes, yet the Church herself survives. Why? Because the Church as an institution is right. It's some of the people who run it who are fallible.

I am sick and tired of hearing about the priest and alter boy scandal. People love to make fun of it, but a simple google search will illustrate that the problem is actually MORE pervasive in Protestant churches. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a total mess, I can't even begin to go there. Does that make it right? Of COURSE not. But to sit there and gleefully crap all over the Catholic church for it's problems while totally ignoring the problems of other Christian denominations is intelectually dishonest at best. Sadly, it is also typical.

What people don't understand is that there is a ferverant NEED for the anti-God crowd in the world to take out the Catholic Church. Why? Because if you can take down the Catholics, the rest of Christianity will crumble as well. This is why Catholicism is a huge target. Satan needs to kill it. Sadly, Christ himself stated that the gates of Hell itself will not prevail against His Church, and try as he might for 2000 years, Satan still cannot prevail.

Quit crapping on the Church. Her history is recognized and acknowleged by her and her members. The wrongs of the past will never go away, but neither will the righteousness of the Church itself. Again, hate it all you want, but if the church falls, back up and run...

Originally Posted by Clint in Wichita

A saint? He backs a bunch of child-fuggers. An angry parent should pitch his feeble arse into the Meditteranean.

Originally Posted by Jenson71

Really? I did a google search on "Pope supports child molesters", and this is what I found:

http://www.the-tidings.com/2002/0503/trip.htm

Maybe you could give me some info on how he backs up a bunch of child-fuggers.

Originally Posted by Oxford

C-Mac,
I will take you at your word that you are not, HOWEVER your statement dovetails very nicely with those that call Catholicism a cult. As a practicing catholic I take offense when someone calls the church corrupt because I see that as an attack on GOD's church.

If someone wants to attack someone within the church on the basis of that persons actions then that is right and proper. And if the allegations are proved to be true, then they should be punished. It is apparent throughout recorded history that corrupt people have used the church as an excuse for their actions, and there have been corrupt people leading the church, yet through all that she still stands.

It is encumbent on us, the laity, to demand accountability and not to abandon the church when ugly and despicable things come to light. I see that as my responsibility to those generations yet to come, .. if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

Originally Posted by C-Mac

I have been on both sides of the fence. I was raised Catholic went to Catholic school, but once I actually read the Bible and did some historical research, I found stark contrasts to the churches teachings and actions. Yes thru out the years the Church has had much corruption and abuses of human rights. Sadly it still goes on down to today, and her attendance and unwaivering faithful is declining. I personally felt enough was enough and chose to follow the Bible teachings not the Church teachings, because I couldnt do both.

Originally Posted by Fairplay

Hey Jenson, you being a huge Godfather fan.
After seeing The Godfather part 3. Should see the church is crooked.

Originally Posted by Jenson71

How factual is The Godfather Part III anyway?

Originally Posted by C-Mac

Let me ask you this, if it were fact and continues today, would it truthfully matter to you?

Originally Posted by Jenson71

I dunno. Forget I asked.

Originally Posted by C-Mac

You think it was easy for me to make the decision I made? But at some point and time I had to come to grips with realities that I would rather not know about. The pope is the leader of this church that is full of corruption, that is why these things are being mentioned among his thread. Usually you hear of past popes and their corruptions. Its just to big of a problem to keep under the rug.

Originally Posted by Jenson71

I haven't changed my mind on anything. You haven't given me anything. You've just said "it's corrupt. Uh....see?" See what?

Originally Posted by DanT

The Pope inspires people like me to become full members in the Catholic Church.

Originally Posted by C-Mac

Historical fact:The American government killed many innocent humans starting two centuries ago, over greed and power. It has had corruption to some degree thru-out its history.
Historical fact:The Catholic church killed countless innocent humans over many centuries and has had corruption thru-out its history.
Historical fact: Both are corrupt.

I can appreciate what your try to say here, but you shouldnt put it at such a personal level. My issues are with the religions teachings and its leaders, not the lay people. I believe that is the issue with all who post here. What I dont understand is that the Catholic churches historical and current atrocities are justified by many its followers by comparing it something else corrupt. Why? Government and Religion are completely two different things, well there supposed to be anyway. Government is a set up of agreed laws to control and guide a society and then enforces it. Religion is supposed to educate you on how to guide your personal life according to the Bible, no matter what goverment you live in. God will not judge a person based on the goverment your a citizen of, but he will judge a person based on the religion your a member of. The Jews during Jesus time are a glaring example. All the Christian religions claim the Bible is the basis of there belief, but its interesting that none teach the same thing. There can only be one truth and it is the responsibilty of the individual to disern what is truth. I feel I have been able to disern that the Catholic Church, even though it has done great things with all its money and power, has been corrupt thru out its history and is blood guilty to the max. Most importantly though, the teachings of the church, I believe, are contrary to the bible teachings. So much so that my conscience couldnt agree anymore to be involved with the church and I have personally chosen to follow the Bible(teachings) and not the Church(teachings). I guess what I'm trying to present to you with all these words, is that I have no personal beef with you what-so-ever, and if you choose to be associated with the Catholic church it doesnt bother me at all. But I would respect your stance more if you wouldnt be so defensive and just agree (as you have stated yourself) that the Catholic Church has been corrupt thru out its history......and then just leave it at that. I will give you an "E" for effort though, because I finally got wore out trying to defend something that just cant be defended.

:Peace:

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

Then you misunderstood my post. Yes, obvioiusly the Church and those committed to leading the Church have committed atrocities. My point, if you look at metrolike's answer below is simple - He states he admits both are corrupt and he has nothing to do with religion because of their corruption - yet he continues to qualify and make excuses why he is still a citizen while his government is just as guilty.

People like gochiefs aren't worth discussing the topic and I stay away from speaking with them on it. Note his determined animosity and deliberate jibes at others core beliefs merely to get a rise out of them. Those are the kind of people it is not worth defending against. They hate with so much vigor, they have no reason in their thoughts.

However, I find many peoples' hypocrisy regarding their reasons for hating religion while they embrace their particular side of politics to be very interesting and I have always tried to understand why they tick.

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

Then you misunderstood my post. Yes, obvioiusly the Church and those committed to leading the Church have committed atrocities. My point, if you look at metrolike's answer below is simple - He states he admits both are corrupt and he has nothing to do with religion because of their corruption - yet he continues to qualify and make excuses why he is still a citizen while his government is just as guilty.

People like gochiefs aren't worth discussing the topic and I stay away from speaking with them on it. Note his determined animosity and deliberate jibes at others core beliefs merely to get a rise out of them. Those are the kind of people it is not worth defending against. They hate with so much vigor, they have no reason in their thoughts.

However, I find many peoples' hypocrisy regarding their reasons for hating religion while they embrace their particular side of politics to be very interesting and I have always tried to understand why they tick.

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

People like gochiefs aren't worth discussing the topic and I stay away from speaking with them on it. Note his determined animosity and deliberate jibes at others core beliefs merely to get a rise out of them. Those are the kind of people it is not worth defending against. They hate with so much vigor, they have no reason in their thoughts.
.

Originally Posted by Metrolike

Sorry, KCW. It's just that my linguistic skills aren't as good as C-Mac's. He expressed my thoughts exactly. It's just that your argument could be attacked from so many sides, I didn't know where to start, what to say so I just started rambling/ranting.

Originally Posted by gochiefs

You've completely missed the point. I don't really hate, I just don't care.

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

Sure, that would explain about 100 posts from you on a topic you don't care about.

Honestly, you aren't worth the effort.

Originally Posted by gochiefs

I don't care to PARTICIPATE in religion. I don't mind discussing it.

Honestly, you're a self-righteous asshole.

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

I understand both your points, I just disagree - especially with someone as politically motivated as yourself. Here you are condemning an entire branch of people motivated by faith in their group because of the actions of a few while you support the people motivated by faith in their group in spite of the actions of a few.

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

No, you mean you don't mind taunting others and attempting to humiliate them for their beliefs.

Originally Posted by Metrolike

Well, I just don't see how government can be compared to religion. Your argument is irrefutable the way you present it. That makes it invalid. Government simply cannot be compared to religion IMO.

Originally Posted by gochiefs

There are plenty of jokes to be made where religion is concerned. Especially regarding the Pope.

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

I disagree. Both work toward the betterment of mankind - that is the core for any free religion and free government. All else is fluff.

Originally Posted by Iowanian

I meant to contribute to this thread, but I was off contributing to the single largest private charity in the world.

Originally Posted by Demonpenz

first I don't fully believe that the bread actually turns into Jesus

Originally Posted by Metrolike

It's true they have the same purpose. It's how they get there is what's different. Government can always somehow justify the dirty shit they do, religion, on the other hand, cannot.

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

Only if the people allow the government to justify their actions. There is no difference in supporting one over the other.

What you are saying is that you hold a group you don't want to particpate with to a hgher standard than you hold your own groups.

Originally Posted by gochiefs

Why would you? It's a piece of freaking bread.

Originally Posted by CHIEF4EVER

The wine and the bread are MUCH more than that but I don't expect you to understand that at this point in your life (based upon what you have posted).

Originally Posted by Iowanian

Its not symbolism to Catholics.

Originally Posted by Metrolike

Huh? I thought it was. What is it then?

Originally Posted by CHIEF4EVER

Metro, I am a Lutheran. Not Catholic. I likewise take communion. We believe (as stated in the bible) that the communion is the true body and blood of the Christ expressed in the eating of the bread and drinking of the wine.

Originally Posted by Metrolike

Yeah, that's symbolsim. Unless you are insane and you actually think you are eating human flesh.

Originally Posted by gochiefs

Catholics are zombies?

Originally Posted by Iowanian

Need I restate my case from #222 any further?

Originally Posted by Metrolike

Yeah, that's symbolsim. Unless you are insane and you actually think you are eating human flesh.

Originally Posted by Metrolike

Yeah, that's symbolsim. Unless you are insane and you actually think you are eating human flesh.

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

No, it is not. And your lack of comprehension displays your ignorance like a spotlight.

If you are going to certify people as not clinically sane, be more informed on the topic you speak.

Originally Posted by Metrolike

Or cannibals. Take your pick. And Iowanian, it's hard to take a religion serious when the priest are raping little boys.

Originally Posted by gochiefs

Iowanian never could take a joke.

Originally Posted by Metrolike

Yeah, I see why you say that. I'd say the same thing, except it really is symbolism. The fact that it's stated in Bible doesn't change the fact. The bread symbolizes Jesus' flesh and the wine symbolizes His blood. A lot of things are stated in the Bible and they should be takes as symbolism, not facts.

Originally Posted by CHIEF4EVER

Sure, sure. And not committing murder, not stealing, honoring your father and mother, not desiring another mans property, loving your neighbor as yourself, etc........that is all just "SYMBOLIC" as well, right?

Originally Posted by CHIEF4EVER

Sure, sure. And not committing murder, not stealing, honoring your father and mother, not desiring another mans property, loving your neighbor as yourself, etc........that is all just "SYMBOLIC" as well, right?

Originally Posted by Iowanian

Gochiefs will wait in line 40 days to be the first to see the 8th star wars, but thinks its "silly" for some to believe a man could go 40 days in the desert.

Originally Posted by Iowanian

I don't believe so, but they Do allow their kids to have Birthdays, defend their country and have relations with women, while teaching their children that living in their mother's basement at 40 isn't cool.

Originally Posted by gochiefs

Now you're putting words in my mouth.

As far as Jews, do they chow down on Jesus Biscuits?