Here's one excerpt from the Cato Institute site, a longitudinal study of immigrantion since the 1940s, including "illegals:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-imtax.html

Net Balance for Undocumented Aliens

In the previous chapter, the expenditures on illegal aliens
were estimated to be about $1,390 per capita, which is
considerably less than for legal immigrants and about 38 percent
of the level for natives. This means that, if, on average,
illegal immigrants pay at least 38 percent as much taxes as
natives, they will be paying their own way.

Clark et al. (Table 6.2) estimate that the 2.8 percent of
the undocumented population in the seven states pays 1.3 percent
of the total of sales, income, and property taxes, or 1.3/2.8 =
46 percent as much taxes as natives. If--and there seems little
reason to estimate a higher or lower figure--the same proportion
holds for total taxes, then taxes paid by illegals more than
offset the costs of the services that they use. That is, the 46
percent of the average natives' inflow that immigrants pay in
taxes is a greater amount than the 38 percent of the average
natives' outlays on the illegals. And assuming that total U.S.
inflows balance total outlays, and that other public outlays on
account of illegals are not greater than for natives (indeed,
they surely are much less), illegals are more than paying their
own way and are contributing to the public coffers. If one were
to make any reasonable accounting for the low marginal
expenditures on public goods such as defense and foreign
activities in connection with illegals, the accounting would look
even more favorable for illegals.

EDIT: I see Donger just cited the same study.....I'll have to examine it more closely to see the distinction between immigrants and illegals they are making....

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscal.html

I've just had a few minutes to glance through it, and here are some things I noticed:
1. The raw data does not identify which households were illegal and which weren't. The researchers used probabilities to estimate which households were illegal and which weren't. I'm no statistician, but I don't think this technique is totally off the wall. On the other hand, this report didn't appear in a peer-reviewed journal,* so there weren't other stats guys looking at it and approving of their methods.

2. The report attributes costs of citizen children to their illegal parents. This one's kind of a toss-up. Their costs are arguably the costs of illegal immigration, even if they're not the costs of illegal immigrants. Still, seems kinda weird to identify costs that citizens are entitled to as "illegal immigrant costs."

3. The report reaches its ultimate result by attributing the "overhead" portion of the federal budget (defense, highway funds, etc.) equally to all households. This is pretty weak, as at best, we're dealing with marginal costs here, not average costs. All 10 million or whatever illegals could disappear tomorrow and it wouldn't make our defense budget any smaller, and our highway expenditures wouldn't need to be lessened by 3%.

4. The report doesn't even try to determine secondary benefits of illegals on the federal budget. Higher profitability and therefore taxes on employers is the most obvious example.

5. Not so much a problem with the report, but some people use its figures to say "Illegals are a drain on the economy." No, supposing the report is accurate, they're a drain on the federal budget, not the economy. The relationship of the two is a little more complex than "budget deficit up, economy go down" that politicians (on either side of the aisle, when convenient) like to throw around.

It looks like the report basically takes the noncontroversial position that poor households are a net drain on the federal budget, and because we know X percent of poor households are illegal, we know that illegal households are a net drain on the federal budget.

*At least, I don't see any indication of that on the website.

One more point:
The study used many upward adjustments to increase immigrant costs. Again, these could be valid statistical methods, but I don't think you can automatically assume that when it's produced by an interest group, rather than an independent researcher publishing in a peer reviewed journal.

Those I've read and heard are adamant about the fact it's a net gain. I'll have to scrutinize their numbers more closely here as I dig into this...

I agree this isn't the solution to SS either--not even close. But I also wonder about a system that devalues wages in jobs the illegals are working, by ignoring the law, winking, and looking the other way....is that the way to go? At a minimum, wouldn't that suggest a major reform of guest worker programs? I just think we gotta come up with a long-term solution to this worsening problem.

That's pretty much what I was trying to say when I doubted they were a net gain. Especially in the case of illegal hispanics, who are made up of mostly low income households.

Regardless, I don't see how people not paying taxes could possibly be better than people paying taxes.

Also, I don't know how recent those studies are, but I wonder if they take into account the amount of tax dollars that are now being spent on making everything bilingual. I know that schools in my area didn't have ESL teachers 10 years ago. I also know that things like the IRS publishing their forms in a second language has to have been an added expense for the government.

There's a lot of fiscal conservatives that would beg to differ. ;)

Heh. Different kind of "not paying taxes".

Amen to that....

I posed this the other day to friends on the other side of this topic from me.....

When is it "ok" to be upset about people committing felonies and being inside America ILLEGALLY?

What if we found out besides the 100's of mexicans entering our country illegally on a daily basis......that 100 Iranians were entering our country illegally daily...would you be upset then? What if 100 known Al-Qaida were entering our country illegally each day....would that upset you?

The point here, albeit a bit extreme, is that we cant be "ok" with people breaking our immigration laws.....and we cant grant people who willingly break these laws, willingly create tax burdens on all of us (citizens), and willingly contribute to the degeneration of our school systems in cities such as Los Angeles and San Diego....it's not ok.

I understand the implications and cheap labor....but it's time to tackle this problem at it's source....the businesses who hire (illegally) illegal aliens to do work. On top of that, crack-downs at the border (although expensive) must be in place.

I realize it will cost way too much to round everyone up and send them back....but no one should be granted amnesty....they should have a 60 or 90 day time frame where they have to register....pay a tax fine (which can be deducted over a course of a year to two years), etc.

If, after the 90 days, someone is found to be unregistered, they're deported. Period.

I also pose this....the businesses taking advantage of this situation arent patriots in my opinion and are no better than the illegals immigrants. Harsh penalties for that should be enforced as well.

I work in the Education industry.....and watch as hundreds of kids try to apply for a study visa (legally) and are turned down. 9/11 has changed a lot of things (and changed the way I think as well about these sort of things)....but it's not fair to the people who try to become citizens, or study in the USA legally (and are turned down), to sit back and watch criminals be granted amnesty for their actions.

I havent even touched on the crime, education, and medical costs to this situation....

The education situation in California would make you sick to your stomach....and illegal immigrants have a huge part in that.

I usually read the Cato Institute but it is Libertarian ( I have a libertarian streak but I am not a pure libertarian). Libertarians do not believe in the idea of having borders at all. They'd just as soon do away with them. Sorry, but I don't go for that....I believe in nation states and national sovereignty.

Seems to me that there are contrary facts on these numbers. Must be each side is using them selectively.

So let's say the numbers back the amnesty folks up....I still think forgiving this problem with leniency just encourages it even more. It encourages a disrespect for another nation's laws.Globaloney! What I don't get with the libertarians, even the right-libertarians, is that they also claim to support the idea of "rule of law." That's not supporting "rule of law"...it's rewarding lawlessness. Never a good thing...imo.

The thing about illegals is....if you deport all illegals--you deport the ones who are a "drain," then you also deport the ones who are contributing (some of them, significantly) in terms of revenues into government coffers....that's where the "net gain" comes in.


I'll examine that a bit later, if I get time. But those are very good questions.

I'm not at all for easy or complete amnesty. And I agree, if they've broken the law....there should be consequences. But with 11-12 million already here, what do we do....? Deport them all? Wow; that seems expensive and harsh. Build a fence and guard it closely? Maybe; but that's gonna be very expensive to maintain, and it may not even really work. Drop the hammer on businesses who hire illegals? Lots of people seem opposed to that, and it would drive up inflation in some sectors in some areas....although the extent is really hard to predict?

So what do we do? :shrug:

I agree about rule of law....but maybe it's the law that needs to be looked at closely and changed to accomodate the reality of the situation? As for those who've already broken the law.....how about some kind of plea bargain of sorts? :hmmm:

I don't think deportation is anywhere close to the solution.

My point is, we need to get them all contributing, instead of just some of them.

uh, you aren't including the attorney fees necessary to fight deportation once your 'illegal' status becomes known to the INS. If you turn yourself in as overstaying your visa, and therefore illegal, you'd better have yourself a good attorney by your side. If the INS decides to play hardball it could cost you thousands of dollars.

I don't know about California, but in the midwest that simply isn't true. They don't play hardball, and they rarely if ever deport anyone that is making the effort to regain legal status.

They wouldn't need attorney fees to fight deportation if they hadn't immigrated illegally, now would they?

I say we deport all the lazy americans that are on welfare and keep the latinos.

I agree completely.

But that would require some sort of amnesty, some sort of expedited naturalization and/or guest worker program, and some sort of increased enforcement, penalties, and prosecution of business that, within a revamped immigration system, continue to hire illegals. All three of those things are pretty controversial...

And THAT is where it will be difficult to get legislation..... :banghead:

Yep. Regardless of how much we want to punish the law breakers, it's just not practical.

I would say that businesses need to be given a grace period that essentially accounts for the amount of time that it takes their illegal employees to become legal. Otherwise, you're expecting them to just get rid of what could be a major part of their workforce. Given the choice of losing your business due to an exodus of labor, or taking your chances at getting caught, a lot of employers will take their chances.

But more importantly, before we do any of that, I feel that we have to insure that more won't be able to enter illegally. Otherwise we're setting ourselves up for a repeat of the situation, just like we did in the 80s.

One problem here is that there are something like 11 million illegals IIRC, and probably 10 million of them are working jobs that 99.9% of Americans can't do or don't want. Also, 99.99% of illegals want nothing more than to make an "honest" (except for their illegal immigratn status) wage for their work.

If that's reality, and my understanding is that it is, then we need to adjust our laws to be realistic.

I don't really care what we do, or don't do, but what I'd like to see are ENFORCEABLE and REALISTIC laws that consider:

1. the needs of the American economy;

2. the fact that poor workers in other countries will inevitably want to come here;

3. the fact that just shipping them back isn't effective.

So I'd be in favor of a large-scale amnesty, a broadened immigration permitting system, and harsher penalties for those who are illegally entering.

Yup.

And that brings us back to the fence, increased surveillance and border control, and possible military involvement (short of dramatic increases in the Border Patrol forces), UNLESS we can decrease the incentive for them to come in the first place. And that is a much more elusive problem....

Uh, perhaps you missed the part where I said that nearly HALF of the 'illegal immigrants' WERE HERE LEGALLY at least initially...

the point is if it were possible and uncomplicated for THEM to make themselves legal before they fell into illegal status then you would eliminate at least half of the problem. In addition, these people would have legal status and thus would qualify for jobs and paying taxes and would not ever be a drain on the system.

No, I didn't miss it. It's just irrelevant. If you overstay your visa, you're illegal and are responsible for any fees that you might incur. I know as a liberal you're inclined to forgive laziness and stupidity, but let's reward it, shall we?

I don't believe that. Not even close to half.

I'm not normally the type to demand links, but in this case I have to call BS unless you have something that supports the statement. And I seriously doubt something like that exists.

There are estimated millions that come to this country illegally each year. For your "half" stayement to be true, that would mean that we allow millions of non-citizens into this country each year too, and that an equal number of them actually stay illegally. I don't think so.

ROFL

Don't know if this is true, but the following was apparently being handed out in Dallas during the recent 'protests.'

.

Every employer who pays an illegal under the table, is hurting our economy and increasing my tax burden.

Its already Illegal to be an illegal boarder jumper.

Americans don't want the hard jobs? true. Make welfare that much harder to get and MAKE the capable, worthless leaches get a job and keep one.

Why work when you can live fine without it?

America is the only nation I know of, with FAT poor people.

Besides the tax burden of illegals, It pisses me off that immigrants won't learn the language, and some schools CAN'T fly an American Flag because its "offensive" to some new residents. Eff them.


There is a legal way, for a productive new citizen to enter our country, be productive and live a good life here.

The sign on Ellis Island should be changed to "give us your engineers, doctors and physics professors".

Some Points to Ponder...
 

Here are some points that are relevant to some of the posts I've read...

By definition, no one knows how many illegal aliens we have in this country. Some respectable sources say 11 to 12 million, others say 40 million. I suspect the higher number is closer to being accurate.

Most illegals have papers. Many of the arguments here are based on the idea that illegals are not paying taxes, etc. How do you think they get jobs at Wal-Mart, restaurants, etc? The underground I referred to in previous posts easily supplies SS cards, birth certificates, etc. Although since 9/11 they can no longer get Drivers Licenses, almost all of them currently have them.

It's not as simple as filling out a form. INS currently has 'lotteries' in each country for immigration and limits the amount of tourist visas. So it's pot luck whether one can be had ~ assuming the odds aren't stacked against you because of corruption (that never happens - right? ROFL ).

I can't remember ever agreeing with memyselfandi... but she was on the right track in an earlier post. If people want to move here and be a productive part of our society, screen them, give them work permits, and let them. This eliminates the need for an underground, encourages the immigrants to learn our language, take pride in our country, and assimilate. No one I know would come here illegally if they could legally. Combine this with tighter laws for illegals (such as some of our friends here are advocating) and you eliminate the need to build a wall.

Bilingual Education and ESL do not work. In Texas, the schools get more money based on the number of students they have in these programs. IMO and in my experience, these programs encourage secularism and slow down the assimilation and English language learning process.

The greatest explosion of inventivness, creativity, and industry in the history of our country came during a period of 'open' immigration. Protectionism and sealing our borders from immigrants only hurts and stifles our country. If we allow the honest desirable element easy access to us, it will be much easier to keep the undesireables out ~ and our society will be better off for it.

Luz
random thoughts...

Employers salivate at the thought of hiring these worthless leaches. They usually turn out to be hard workers.

I wasn't talking about your beloved immigrant labor pool. I'm talking about the douchebag Americans who choose to sit home in thier HUD paid house, in their Govt Asst electric paid AC, eating Food Stamp Doritos on a 70 degree wednesday afternoon, instead of working.

Every employee that is paid under the table saves the employer money, true....but it adds to the tax burden of himself and every other taxpayer, as the same guy paid under the table has kids in school, medical needs and probably is getting foodstamps, because the records don't show them with a job.


I think one of the reason, guys like you can't find and keep desireable American employees, is that anyone with half a brain, some ambition and skill sees that instead of working and giving you the profit, they can go on their own.

I've worked my share of physical and undesirable jobs, including construction of homes with Mexican labor. It always thrilled me when I was shoveling gravel while they took their 2hr nap.

Wow. A ton of support in this poll for "Deport ALL, or nearly all, who entered the country illegally". Encouraging to see.

I wasn't either. I was being sarcastic.

Why the fuck would I want to hire some American welfare deadbeat that's only applying for a job at the government's gunpoint? Nobody wants the pond scum that makes up a large percentage unemployed Americans. They are unemployed because they are losers to begin with and they don't want a job bad enough to work hard and keep it.

I don't want illegal labor, I want good labor. I don't want cheap labor, I want good labor. It's not about keeping illegals around. It's about leaglizing them and keeping hard workers around.

Your solution of shipping off 10 million workers and replacing them with the Quicksurfers of the world simply is not viable. You can stomp your feet with the rest of the uninformed xenophobes all you want, but the fact remains this country needs those workers.

It looks like your obvious sollution is meth-heads. They always say they have too much energy and don't sleep for 4 days at a time anyway. A couple of flood lights and you can really run up the hours.

I understand why you do what you do, and that loafers aren't the answer.....I'd like to find a way to "encourage" loafers to get a damn job and keep it.

Its nice to see that everyone with a different viewpoint, and no monetary gain via illegal labor is an uninformed xenophobe.

Sorry, but after the "ship them all out and give the jobs to Americans posts", that shoe seems to fit like it was custom made.

All good points. Your posts here, and the thread in general, is causing me to seriously re-evaluate my stance on this issue. I mean, everything you've said makes a lot of sense in my view. You mind if I ask, what do you do? You seem very "tuned in" to the whole situation.

In my Planet experience, with all the political "talk" I've had (probably about half of my 26K posts), I've only had one other issue where I've really felt I learned something that changed my mind on an issue (decriminalization/legalization of MJ.) This is the second.

As much as that is an understandable reaction, IMO it is based on emotion and a lack of understanding the complex issues involved here. There are times I think, "screw it, just send them home!" too.

However, I just don't think it's realistic, economically or practically. And I'm also of the opinion it runs counter to everything this country stands for. I know times have changed, but it's a good thing for many of us.....Americans didn't feel the same way when our families first came to America.

Of course you don't want to believe it...

50 year old college professors from Ireland don't make the same kind of impact as a poster child as do 'person of Hispanic heritages' who swim rivers and climb walls...

but it's true.

The problem is you were restating my point as being half of all illegal people NOW entering the country are doing so while legal. That is not what I said. My point was that there are people here who've been here anywhere from 1 month to 40 years who were initally legal and never left when their visa expired. That is an enormous time span impacting literally millions of people.

Of course to know this you have to accept that not all illegal aliens are criminals to start with...something that some people don't want to admit. They'd rather lump everyone into one category and feel like they've fairly addressed the problem.

As far as Mr. Kotter's poll, there is a fundamental problem with having to prove your employment status. Many people are not working legally because it's illegal to do so. And which of their employers are going to step up and vouge for them and say 'yes, I've employed Jose for 15 years, where do I send the check for my fine?' :hmmm: :shake:

Before you start painting me with such broad strokes, I suggest you read my posts and get an understanding of where I fall on the issue.

And I know you're talking about people that have been here since whenever. But when they are coming into the country illegally at the rate of 3 million per year, that means 3 million of your "here on expired visas" have to be here too. Your claim that half the illegals here fall in that category basically means there are 10s of millions of those people, and considering we only let 800k of those type of people in per year, you'd be implying that every single one of them stayed for the last 15-20 years. It's just highly unlikely. The numbers don't add up. Your statement of "half" is significant hypebole.

I'd like to know where you are getting your '3 million illegal immigrants per year' statistic. Here is a website that indicates 3 million immigrants might come here but that is the TOTAL. The actual number of illegals is less. Of course, these are Census numbers so what do they know. :hmmm:


http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1405.html

Wow...
 

Thank you for your kind words...

It's ironic, but I just finished a post in the 'What Do You Do' thread. I won't repeat it here.

I don't claim any special certification but because of circumstances, I do feel closer to the issue than most.

My viewpoints come from a combination of:

Traveling extensively in Latin American countries.
Speaking Spanish as a second language.
Studying history.
Being married to a woman I met in South America, and now having family there.
Having owned a business (restaurant) that hires lower paying positions.
Being on the 'inside' of the Latin American culture here in Texas.
Being a student of politics.
etc.

Luz
no credentials...

Invade Mexico and annex it!

Seriously, I posted earlier we need to raise quotas to help labor shortages which will make it possible for them to come in legally....but to immigrate, not be here temporarily for the most part anyway. Businesses should be taxed to pay for the gov't labor involved including checking for subversion and criminals.

Really, though there is a price-tag with any solution.
I don't think long-term we can afford to try and be as cheap as we can about it.

Question: I have to wonder how many Ameicans would donate to pay to round 'em up and deport them since we are so generous. I mean if we could raise more than 5x the amount for the Sumatran tsunami victims voluntarily, well beyond what the Europeans were coerced to give thru taxation that tells me a lot....because the majority of Americans do not like this.

Additionally, fines on the business that hire them should help to offset enforcement.

The thing is middle-road or full amnesty....they're gonna just keep comin' until we have another middle-of-the-road solution or another amnesty, and so on and on and on....if we're never going to put our foot down and mean business. That sends a message imo.

And again, I see this invasion as an act of war...the real one we should have been fighting, as opposed to restructuring power and regimes in the ME, that are NO THREAT to us.

Just for arguments sake, how would you react when you got fined for hiring someone that had a valid drivers licence, SS#, and Green Card?

All of you that are claiming all this hiring is being done for greed do not, imo, appreciate the problem.

Luz
BTW, if you don't hire them because they 'might' be illegal, you're setting yourself up for a discrimination suit...

I would think that should be deal with as any fraud....the victim is innocent and the person committing fraud prosecuted for it.

Well I don't necessarily agree with a lot of those discrimination suits anyway.

Actually those, are among the best credentials. :)

BucEyedPea,

With all respect, I don't think you realize how many illegal aliens have papers. Fining employers doesn't work.

Luz
i don't agree with immigration laws or many discrimination suits either. but it doesn't change the reality...

Y'er right I don't. I don't care how many do either. I was speaking more on principle. You may or may not have a point. I'm just discussing anyway and have NOT done a real lot of reading on this issue from that angle anyway.JMO.

I actually prefer deportion and land mines the most anyway.

Luz

Glad to hear it.

BTW...this issue seems to come down to "choose your poison."

Si, Se puede!

This is a subject I have been passionate about for the last 5+ years and having been involved in hiring illegal or supposed illegal immigrants I feel I have a pretty good insight on the subject.

I worked as a Restaurant Manager in Overland Park, KS for 3 years and let me tell you it was EXTREMELY hard to hire American workers. Johnson County is one of the wealthiest counties in the US and the kids that restaurants depend on to work during the summer aren't available because their parents are rich and so they don't have to work. So we started hiring Hispanics for these jobs and at one time 80% of my crew was Hispanic. Now alot of them had papers and SSN cards and we had a process to verify their numbers but most them admitted in private they were illegal but after a while I didn't care because I needed the help.

With that being said I believe we need to get this huge problem under control. Here is my proposal:

1. Build a high-tech fence and defend with the military. This is a National Security issue first and foremost. I like Donger's idea of 2 warning shots and then a kill shot. We needed to stop the bleeding 5 years ago.

2. STOP ALL LEGAL Immigration for 5-7 years while we get this under control.

3. DO NOT actively pursue any illegal immigrants in the US right now unless they have committed crimes other than just being illegal. If the INS or the police stumble upon illegal immigrants we will deport them.

4. Start a National ID card program.

5. Stop all government services to illegals and if they can't produce legal documents then they will be deported.

Those are excellent solutions Diggler....all except the National ID Card...they could probably fake those too. Anyhow, the NIDcard opens up other horrors for Americans.

This is what I've been trying to tell people, and they simply refuse to believe it. Anyone that's had to deal with hiring at low wage levels understands. People look at unemployment rates and think there are lines of unemployed Americans that simply can't get jobs, when the reality is 75% of those people are unemployable or simply don't want a job, and the other 25% are selective about which job they'll work. And it's reached a point where it's no longer about cheap labor in most states. Employers are paying good wages to anyone.

Not including the consumer greed factor was only telling 1/2 the story.

But again, we're talking greed.

Do I really need to subjugate someone else to save 45% on oranges?

And I'm not really "redass" over the people just the lack anyone trying to implement a reasonable solution. It's either "shoot 'em dead" or "let everyone in."

It's not going to work.

And by look of millions marching I don't think they're eactly happy with the existing arrangement either...

Having read 210 posts on this issue it seems to me that the biggest issue most people have with illegal aliens has to do with the amount of tax generated money that is spent to "support" them whether it be schools, welfare, food stamps, medical costs, etc.

Is this a fair statement?

That problem is also regional. In faster growing states (Arizona, Nevada) the lack of workers is obvious. In central Mo. it's not as much of a problem. Even here though it's hard to find someone reliable for a part time position (20 hrs and under a week) that starts at $7.50 an hour.

The problem is raising children in a welfare state that shows them they don't HAVE to work. The entire working class culture has changed and that's the problem...

For most of the BB it appears that way. It isn't to me, but it's definitely a big factor.

My problem isn't neccessarily the tax burden itself, but that there are a lot of them that don't pay taxes to help offset that burden.

And on a much simpler scale, it's a matter of them playing by a different set of rules than we have to. I think it's a natural reaction to be upset by that.

And again, what happens when the whole latino immigrant (legal or illegal) culture gets tired of doing our bidge work? Unlike most of white America they're actually willing to get up off their asses and do something about it...

I actually said earlier in this thread that rotating work visas might be the answer. Only let them enjoy the spoils of American wages for so many years before they have to take a few years off. Remind them that lousy American wages are still ten times Mexican wages.

I know that may sound a little harsh, but I look at it from the perspective that we are providing each other with a service. I get workers for cheaper than I normally would, and you get a job paying more than you would otherwise make in mexico.

The whole tax issue is a different discussion, IMO as our current set up sucks in many, many ways.

Then there is the point I was heading towards with my first question. We need to get rid of the entitlement society we are burdened with already. It is not just illegals who get these entitlements (which blows my mind as to how they can qualify but that is another matter also) but those "lazy S.O.B.s who won't work" in the first place. There are enough helping organizations out there now from the local chuches to the Salvation Army that can and will help the less fortunate without needing to get the Feds involved in supporting them or taking the money from my wallet to fund it.

Sorry, got sidetracked. I am of the feeling that this is not as big an issue as it appears right now. In answer to someone's question at the beginning of this thread, yes this is today's Gay Marriage. I honestly think the Repiblicans are upping the media hype on immigration to take the focus for the upcoming election off issues like the Iraq situation or whether we have a competent president or not. If you can get people to focus on an issue you can control the talk about you can more easily hit the talking points and get the votes. In the meantime the real issues that people actually worry about everyday get ignored just like every other election.

To me the problem is we really aren't providing them with the persuit of happiness, just survival. The 2nd generation (born in America) will have a much better shot but we aren't doing much to help. By allowing them to come/stay as illegals we're also limiting them to mostly low paying jobs. You aren't getting into management or an ownership role while being illegal.

And what happens once all these low paying jobs are filled, but more illegals keep coming?

What happens if this nation finds out what a real depression is?

I'd love to see us adopt the fair tax but there's no way D.C. lawmakers would ever allow it...

I am reading a book about the Fair Tax by Neil Boortz (not one of my favorite talk show people). It is an interesting read and I intend to put up a post in the DC forum to get some discussion on the idea.

If enacted, I think this shift in how taxes are collected changes some of the points of the immigration issue.

I say, build the fence. The government can construct it with people standing on the Mexican side of the line, so the labor won't cost much.

I appreciate your passion for the subject, and I must say, my intial reactions and thoughts on the subject fall not to far from yours. I just don't know that your approach will work, UNLESS we also target those businesses hiring illegal aliens with fines and punishment for future violations. Cleaning up the mess, without addressing the cause would only ensure it would happen again down the road. And that leads us back to who's gonna fill those jobs, that you, jsp, and others seem convinced that Americans apparently do not want. Because I don't know if it would fly, or even if it's wise:

1. Fence sounds good, but will it really work? Or will illegals just find a way around our very expensive "band-aid" as some suggest?

2. Stopping legal immigration for 5-7 years sounds a bit harsh....and it punishes people who've been waiting in the "legal" line for the actions of illegals. It just strikes me as, almost Anti-American....

3. Deport those illegals "found," but don't look for them? I don't understand that one, I guess...

4. National ID? I'd be for it, but that's one that will be tough to sell to many libertarian types for fear they would be misused.

5. I don't support government programs for illegals, but deportation of those who've lived here for many years and held productive jobs seems harsh.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences. I'd support fines, payment of taxes they've neglected, and a rigorous naturalization process. Economically and realistically, deporting 11-12 million illegals seems unneccesary, expensive, and unwise given the potential economic fall-out that you yourself allude to.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe that I differ from both of you on this matter.

Digler's compaint is that "all of us in Johnson County are too rich to find anybody to do our minimum wage work :crybaby:"?

I understand that in some industries there might be a valid problem finding available labor, but not this case. Here's a novel idea: since you are so f***ing rich, why don't you pay enough for workers in less fortunate areas of KC to commute into your area of town?

Oh I know why.

unmitigated $$$GREED$$$.

Someone tell me how building a wall to prevent people from illegally entering the country is racist.

jspchiefs and a number of others, who own businesses and have posted in the thread suggest otherwise. They maintain, based on their experiences, that many Americans refuse to work in those jobs even at wages considerably ABOVE minimum wage...

But, if you had bothered to read the thread, of course you'd know that. :rolleyes:

i don't know why these mexicans are working so hard. All i would do is try to get raped by a lacross team. Boom Retirement

This is my take:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racist
Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

Although I do not consider it, racist, in the abstract, or necessarily racist....certainly, one can make the argument, that since the wall would be targeting Mexicans, the motivation for building such a wall is inherently racist. Unless of course, you would build a wall on the Canadian border as well....or at a minimum take comparable measures to stop ALL illegal immigration, and not just Latino immigration.

Where did you ancestors come from (mostly)?

But Canadians aren't illegally crossing the border in droves on a daily basis. I guess it all comes down to whether you want the US to enforce immigration law or not. It's not really fair to immigrants trying to get in from other countries to allow Mexicans to come over and stay simply because of the geographic advantage they have.

My ancestors came from Russia/France in the 1900's.

I understand what you are saying, and agree to a point. If we block off the Mexican boder though.....the resourceful and determined ones will find away around an expensive investment by the U.S. And I'd be very surprised if illegal crossings didn't increase at the Canadian border as a result. What then? :shrug:

Russian/French.....cool. I was just curious because, for example, as a Irish-German I'm aware of many racist sorts policies and actions my ancestors faced. Unfortunately, it was part of the price they paid; but I just don't think it was right, obviously.

No, but Pakistanis and other middle easterners are crossing the Canadian border.

Just this week, a Canadian border crossing ring was busted. They dealt mostly in smuggling people from the ME.

It's not just about illegal workers. It's about secure borders. It does us no good to screen flights when someone can pay $1k to sneak across the border from another country.

I don't believe it's the slightest bit racist. People that charge as much are just trying to take advantage of the emotion that comes with those accusations. It's no more racist than putting a speed limit in a black neighborhood... sure it mostly affects blacks, but that's a by product of the law, not the intent.

we need to annex mexico.

Rob I will explain a little better but my positions are all National Security related and IMO that trumps most everything else.

1. Building a high tech fence and the US Military guarding the border will instantly stop 98% of illegal crossings and drug trafficking IMO. We need to stop the real problem which is the illegal crossings. IMO this should be the first priority because without it then the problem will always exist.

2. I believe we should stop all legal immigration because we can't handle the load we have now and we have no idea who is in this country or not. Until we have a better grasp shut down any immigration.

3. Basically what I am saying here is not actively have a policy to pursue and round up illegal immigrants unless they are wanted for crimes committed in the US. What I don't want and which is impossible is to go round up 12 million illegals and deport them. IMO that would wreck the economy. But at the same time if INS or police come across illegals then they need to deport them. IMO punishing small businesses is not the answer.

4. I agree with you and I am not totally sold on it but it could be a start.

5. This one really pisses me off. Not only do you and I and the rest of the country have to support dead beat losers who can't get a job but now we have to support Non-****ing Americans with my tax dollars. **** that shit. These illegals get better medical care than most Americans do and that is not right. Also from what I understand in CA if an illegal wants to go to college they can and don't have to pay out of state tuition but if I wanted to send my kid to college in CA then I would. Have ****ing messed up is that?

Draft all aliens and ship their asses to Iraq-solve two problems at once.

Give this some serious thought...
 

Gentlemen (and ladies)...

Banyon I started out paying new hires $8.50-$10 an hour to work but I had no takers from JoCo kids but the Hispanics loved what I payed which was alot more than some of the other restaurants in that area were starting out at.

I also had a couple of Hispanics that lived in KCK drive in and worked at the restaurant too.

IMO I feel that was reasonable pay rate.

I'll take 12,000 legal Mexicans before 1 legal frog.


Wow.

Dude, I am so sorry...

It is a different world after 9/11 so to say we need opened borders is borderline treason.

I guess the 'Think it through' part of my post escaped you...

'Open Immigration' as practiced in the 1900s does not equate to 'open borders.' It is not my job to educate you ~ go look it up yourself.

It is posts like this that make me realize that the terrorists are winning. People are so scared that they will sacrifice the things that made our country great on the alter of security.

Luz
it's too bad our founding fathers weren't faced with the issues of safety over liberty and enterprise... Oh, wait a minute...

Luzap,

I think the difference here is that we're discussing illegal immigration and you're comparing it to legal immigration... The big key being that we have control over legal immigrants, i.e. background checks, etc. whereas with illegal immigration we really don't know who is in the country.

Exactly.

But he agrees...

ChiefsLV,

Our current immigration policies are the cause of the illegal immigration problem.

Luz
isn't there an ancient chineese symbol of a serpent eating it's tail???...