I had a similar incident with custom windows. Unfortunately, this happens quite a bit when you custom order things. If you can use stock items, it will prevent quite a bit of hair pulling. Has your chandelier arrived?

Dang, Rainman. What did you do to deserve this kind of karma? I hope the rest of the project goes more smoothly. Are you sleeping in the new bedroom now?

This part of the thread is worthless without pics...

Here's the letter that I just faxed to GRANITE DEPOT:

Granite Depot

To Management:

I am enclosing an authorization for additional charges to my credit card to obtain the backsplashes that have been part of my order for months, despite the fact that I disagree strongly with the additional charges. Please know that, due to the extremely poor service that I have experienced with your company, this authorization will be valid ONLY if the backsplashes are cut and installed to the specifications that I have given to both the installer and to Victor Marble. I have been told that the backsplashes were cut according to those specifications, and I will need to see it with my own eyes before I believe it, since I have become accustomed to having my work done improperly by Granite Depot.

As background, we initially purchased granite from your company for our countertops several months ago. At the time, we discussed the backsplashes with your sales staff, and we received a price for installation that was represented as including our complete order.
We then met with Victor Marble to handle the templating, and they said that they did not receive notice that a backsplash was included. I had to correct it on the spot, and detailed both verbally and in writing what we were expecting.

The measurement person then came out to template the countertops, and when we confirmed the backsplash with him, he said that he had not received any notice that a backsplash was included. We had to explain it again.

The countertops were installed yesterday, and no backsplash was included. Victor Marble once again informed us that they had no paperwork documenting the backsplash. Presumably they needed something from Granite Depot, since I had already spoken with them and sent a notice in writing.

I am now being told that you wish to charge me an additional $445 to install the backsplash, or to use the words of your salesperson, “slap it up”. I have spent quite a bit of time correcting your errors on this problem, and it will cost me even more money to have the contractor present to have the backsplashes installed. This is not merely Granite Depot’s error; it is your repeated error that I have repeatedly attempted to fix, apparently with no success. I recognize that mistakes happen sometimes, but good companies fix the problems.

I will offer you a choice on this matter. If you feel that you really deserve the $445 in payment to fix your own repeated errors, then you can charge my account. If you do so, I will also inform my contractor and my architect of my bad experience with Granite Depot, and I will recommend against any other people I know making a purchase from Granite Depot. I should note that I am a consultant and one of my clients is a homebuilding association and another is a developer, so I know quite a few contractors. Or if you prefer, you can do the fair thing and fix your error and install the backsplash at no charge. If you do that, I still cannot speak positively of my experience with Granite Depot, but I will pledge to not speak negatively of your company. It’s your choice.

At any rate, please be advised that I will ONLY authorize this additional $445 if the backsplash was indeed cut to my specifications and is installed correctly.

Rain Man

No. :sulk:

Great letter till this part. You needed to tell them you were not paying for it, see if they give in. Trust me they are going to bill your ass. They don't give a shit.

We are indeed in the bedroom now, and it's fabulous. There are just a couple of little finish-up items that we're waiting on: a door that hasn't come in yet, and hooking up the swamp cooler to a water supply. I'll post photos when the whole thing is done.

Overall, the project has gone pretty well. We're in about the 15th week of an 8-week schedule, but I've been around long enough to know that construction schedules are always underestimated. I can live with that. My big worry is getting the final invoice and seeing where we stand on price. The contractor has been good to work with, but has been very laissez-faire on the change orders. We've had very few, but when we would talk about something he would say, "Oh, the cost is trivial. We'll get it to you" and then we never get a price. I don't think they're dishonest at all, but rather they're just too busy right now and their finance person is way behind. (They've never even sent us the final contract to sign, so this whole project has been done without a contract. I think that's to our advantage, so I've let it ride.) He's also had to work around at least two major design flaws by our incompetent architect, and I don't know who's expected to absorb any extra costs there. If nothing weird happens with the pricing, I'd certainly recommend the contractor to others.

I find it a little odd to be so ticked off about the backsplash on a kitchen counter, but you get that way on these projects, especially toward the end. "WHITE? WE HAVE WHITE OUTLET COVERS!?!?! I SPECIFICALLY ASKED FOR BISCUIT!"

Yeah, I'd be willing to bet that you're right, but we'll see. However, my major concern right now is to get the backsplashes, because if trouble starts, there's no way we'll be able to match the granite, and they've got the possession arrow in their favor. Given the choice of getting the dang things or saving $445, I really need to get the dang things.

I don't blame you. We hate homeowners, too. But it's not your fault. It's a human nature thing. People are incredibly protective with the largest investment of their life - as it should be. They also expect to get a lot of work for a little bit of money. This is where bad blood comes in. People have no problem spending $79 for $1.25 worth of leather, plastic, and rubber with a Nike swoosh on it but they don't want to spend too much markup to the guy working on their largest investment. It's a strange phenomona. Don't ask me to explain it. I used to be you when I was on the other side of the fence.

Woo. Just got a nasty call from granite saleswoman. They're charging the $445 and they don't think it's their fault at all, and they don't like my tone.

While I don't think they should eat the entire $445, they should make some other concession. Obviously, they're not handling it well.

That sucks. Too bad you don't have documentation of the phone calls you made. That's why I love handling this sort of stuff via email.

Well, go back and look at your original order. If the backsplash is not listed there then it is your fault. Sorry, Rainman, but you have to be very specific when having work done based on your custom ideas. I piss off a lot of contractors when I ask them to itemize their estimates but I won't hire them without having their responsibilities 100% clear in writing. It takes more time and effort at the beginning but it is well worth it.

Yeah, she handled it very poorly. Her contention was that she had told us that the backsplashes would be extra yadda yadda yadda. I don't agree with that, but even if I did spot her that, they have repeatedly failed to get the order correct. I keep ending up being the one that tries to keep it from falling through the cracks, and they keep forgetting to add it to the order.

I can handle mistakes. What burns me is when people won't admit that it was a mistake.

This would be the point that I would tell her to stick her granite backsplash up her smelly twat.......sideways.

I don't mind paying, I just want a contractor to come when they say they will, and do what they are supposed to do.

I have found a couple great honest contractors that I use for my projects. I talk them up every chance I get.

People that are spending the money can say, I hate blah, blah, blah. It may not be right, but they're spending the money and they have a right to expect excellent service. If contactors hate home owners, that's a big problem with the industry as I assume, home owners are contractors bread and butter.

I gotta have that backsplash, and it can't have any feces on it when it's installed.

However, the owner of the business is going to get a politely rude letter from me stating that his salesperson valued $445 more than the reputation of the business, and that I'm reluctantly going to begin my "public information" campaign tomorrow.

I would never be a contractor for exactly this reason. People do tend to be hypersensitive about this stuff, even if they aren't paying a ton of money for it. We're talking about large expenditures, long-lasting effects, and lots of uncertainty and stress. That's a volatile combination.

If the contractor can't deliver a quality product to the customers satisfaction, he/she shouldn't be a contractor.

This whole ordeal makes me think I should have a video camera present during any meetings involving large purchases. I can't believe that they still don't think it's their fault after all that. Good luck getting things figured out!

That's very black and white. I wish I lived in that world.

I'll change what I said...

If the contractor can't deliver a quality product to Rain Man's satisfaction, he/she shouldn't be a contractor.

I know you guys have to deal with buttcracks.

I'm a home owner that has done numerous projects requiring contractors. When there was a problem (shit happens) we came to a conclusion that I was satisfied with. Rain Man's getting screwed by bullshit management. I know it's been said a million times but, if I ran my business like that, I'd be out of business.

so where are the pictures of this beautiful backsplash?

We're getting close to the great unveiling. I'm thinking second week in November. Unless of course the chandelier still hasn't arrived by then.

Heh. What you're missing is that some customers are never satisfied. On top of that, there are customers out there that will change their mind 10 times on a project and want you to stick to the initial bid, nevermind the extra 50 hours of labor their revisions caused.

Two brothers currently in construction and my own time as a framer taught me that construction is quite a bit different than other service/product based businesses.

So...they called to confirm that they would be there between 3:00 and 4:00 today. My wife and our contractor foreman went there to meet them, and they never showed up and never called. I just called them, and they said, "The installers didn't show up? We haven't been able to get hold of them."

It would be hard for me to figure out a way to handle this situation worse than they're handling it. Amazing.

I think the big difference is that people are spending their own money instead of company money, so they get more stressed about it. However, construction companies could cut a lot of the stress by simply providing pricing options. "Sure, we can move that light fixture. It's be an extra $150. Sign here and we'll do it." I would welcome that approach, because it's fair and no one's getting surprised or screwed.

The bigger issue is work quality. Too many people look solely at price, and the lowest price may also be the lowest quality. I think it's important to see the work of the contractor, and then ensure that you approve of the quality and that you're getting the same quality. We've been lucky with the contractors that we've hired for major projects, in that their work is good. I don't know what we would do if they were doing shoddy work, because quality is so subjective.

I do not envy you in any way. I went through that about 10 years ago(kitchen, 2 bathrooms and a basemnt). I`m going to re-do my basement soon. Actually doing a little here and there because I hate doing that stuff. Good luck. Looking forward to more pics of the finished product.

Good luck to you. I would advise against using Granite Depot of Commerce City, Colorado, for your granite.

no granite for me. Formica is cheap, easy to install and certainly easily replaceable once you get tired of it.

Very good, there are a lot of contractors who aren't thorough with their bids, or even worse just give verbal bids. I'd like to add that the customer also should NEVER "assume" something is included in the price. I try to be very clear when I present my proposals that if something is not specifically listed that they're expecting, they need to check with me about it.

I don't want to put down any contractors, I would like to be a contractor. Changes are part of consruction. It's difficult for home owners to make decisions from drawings. Homeowners need to be informed of the costs attached to changes. If a contractor is organized enough to get costs related to changes in writing, they should be covered. I know, I know, easier said than done.

Yeah. I've obsessed over this all afternoon because I'm so ragingly angrily furiously annoyed, and there were four screwups. The first was not giving me complete pricing in the first place. The second was acting like they didn't screw up in the first place. The third was not correcting the order. The fourth was not acknowledging that they didn't correct the order. If they made a mistake and it costs me more, I can deal with that as long as I'm convinced that it was an honest mistake. The part that continues to chafe me is the fact that they still can't get the order right, and are still unapologetic about it.

Yes, changes are part of construction, but they need to be kept at an absolute minimum. There's often more cost involved in the change than just the time & materials to do the work. If you get too many they will disrupt the flow of the job and nothing gets done efficiently, which generally ends up hurting the bottom lines of other sub-contractors who aren't even involved with the actual change.

Yeah, that's the thing. The base pricing should cover a typical level of minor changes. We all know that everything isn't going to be exactly as predicted, because these jobs are complicated. However, I shouldn't have to bear all of the risk for any changes, because I'm relying on the contractor to know enough to predict the risk of problems and account for it in his pricing. If there's something completely unexpected that gets uncovered, then we talk. But the contractor should know that XX percent of the job is going to have a glitch in it, and should price knowing that that will happen.

I hear you Rain Man. It really boggles my mind how some businesses stay in business. There's a contractor that I did work for over 10 years ago whose projects were always a disorganized nightmare. His customers all hated him by the time he was done, but yet he is still in business to this day.

Which is why no reputable contractors in Texarkana will even deal with private home remodels.

Yes, they need to be kept at an absolute minimum. That is easier said then done when a homeowner is generally making decisions from paper.

I think this only happens because there aren't good forums for people to share their bad experiences. That guy can move on and always find someone who hasn't heard of him.

The funny thing is that I just spoke on a conference panel this week about customer service and what constitutes excellent customer service. We talked about how to handle customer complaints and how to prevent customer complaints, and what defines good customer service. In handling complaints, the common theme that I heard was that it's better to not do battle with a customer, even if they're not reasonable, because in the long run you're better off with a happy customer than a mad customer.

I think you hit it on the head, there. Many, many contractors are excellent at doing the actual work, but they're atrocious at figuring actual costs and being organized enough to present that information accurately to the home owner beforehand. My brother built extremely high end log cabins (hand hewn logs). He even built a log cabin for Tom Cruise in Colorado. He's built multiple large cabins that have been featured in various magazines. Unfortunately, he was more of an artisan than a contractor. He inevitably underbid the home, then being the honest guy that he was, his profits would suck on the house because he'd try to stick to the initial bid. As a result, he rarely does turnkey cabins anymore despite the potential profit being much higher in turnkey because he can make a better profit with less headache just by going in as a timber framing subcontractor.

It's only natural that some things will change. I think that's no problem if they're neutral and addressed before the "point of no return". And if I change something after the fact, then I'll pay for it.

The gray area is the stuff like my refrigerator not being able to open all the way. It's clearly a design problem, and the cabinet subcontractor was following the design. However, I was a little disappointed that they didn't notice it when they were putting it in, or didn't know from experience that you shouldn't have a refrigerator within 12 inches of a 90 degree cabinet turn.

So who pays for pulling the cabinet back out and fixing the problem? The architect, whose design was stupid in the first place? The homeowner, who made the problem worse by trying to fix another architect problem? The cabinet subcontractor, for not knowing that you shouldn't have a fridge that close to the corner? Or the general contractor, who is supposed to be on site managing the project?

surely not

Yeah. I like my contractor, but they haven't been able to provide me any pricing on change orders other than "that's a trivial cost." We have meetings every week and every week we say, "you need to let us know where we're at on the budget" and they haven't submitted some of them weeks after they did the work - and without us formally approving it. The only price they submitted was $884 for one change order, so I presume that all of the others are below that amount. It scares me, though, and it's not necessary.

thank you

Look, I work in video editing. There are subjective changes that happen ALL THE TIME. My customers know that with these changes come additional costs. When the customer is given the options, they will make their decision being fully informed. It's as simple as that. 98% of the time I have no problems. Unfortunately, with construction, as we have all read, problems with communication happen way too much.

your story reminds me of one i heard earlier this year. one of my customers was having a surgery and his daughter came back for a while. she lives outside indianapolis. she told me last year that they had done an add-on and some remodeling. thought all was good happy with job, knew there were some xtras.then the final bill came, xtras totalled purty near 50g. guess thy're spending some time in court now with their friendly contractor.

My business is the same way, bogie. I always have people changing what they need, and it's a natural process. My pricing reflects that I'm going to have do some re-routing, and I typically absorb it unless it's truly a client-requested change in the scope of the work. Then I tell them what it'll cost and let them decide.

Change your mind 8 times about survey content? I'll sigh and deal with it. Tell me you want a 20-minute survey instead of a 10-minute survey, and I'll tell you how much extra it costs. Simple.

My work is also expense-heavy. I do a fair number of $35,000 projects that have $20,000 in subcontractor expenses. I'm not unlike a contractor in that way.

Then they are not qualified to own the home in the first place, or at least not qualified to have it remodeled.

Eh, that's true to a point. But often it's because the homeowner doesn't think through exactly what they want, and go into it with the idea that changing things later isn't a big deal.

That's exactly my fear. I'm getting no information. All of our changes have been relatively small, but I'd like to know if they're averaging $100 each or if he's charging me $1,000 each. He's just telling me "cheap" and then doing the work.

I think I'm starting to feel sick.

Here you go....

Colorado consumers are fortunate to enjoy statewide, free services from a coalition of public and nonprofit organizations dedicated to consumer education and protection.

Dialing 1.800.222.4444 connects a Colorado caller to a menu of choices provided in English and Spanish. Options include the Colorado Attorney General's Office of Consumer Protection, AARP ElderWatch, or one of the four BBBs serving the state.

With this program, callers do not have to pay long-distance charges to receive consumer advice, report a problem, or receive a reliability report from the BBB.

If you are already 15 weeks into an 8 week project, just call and tell him all work and payment stops TODAY until he has a complete cost sheet worked up for you.

Heh, that's the best part of construction. There's so many people involved, everyone always has someone to point the finger at. IMO it all comes down to the architect. The cabinet installer probably had no idea what type of refrigerator you had coming or what direction the doors opened. The architect should have.

hopefully you're nowhere near that. i do know how frustrating remodeling can be. i got remarried 4.5 yr ago and we immediately tore into the house. main part put up in 1890's. then added onto couple of times. it was right at a year before we had someting other than lawn chairs or the kitchen table to set at. even w/all we did, we could concievably sink another 30 or 40 into it.

here's some after pics of our house.we were in the holiday homes tour.

and our kitchen

oooh... find out how much. I'm never afraid to talk money with a client, in fact, i think they appreciate it...I used to be afraid to charge for sample boards, never again.

Best thing to do is get it on paper.

We keep trying, but our only option is to stop the project until they provide numbers, and I don't want to do that. Plus, it's rather combative to do that, I think.

Nice work, plbrdude, but don't you think it's about time that you updated that telephone?

A lot of your door trim is very similar to ours.

:rolleyes:

Every contractor I've worked with makes it very clear that changes cost time and money. I'm sure there are virgin home owners out there that don't have a clue. It's the contractors job to clue them in.

I don't think it's odd at all, given the scenario you've described. I'd be pretty darned pissed if I were in the same boat. You can't do much more than you did to get things to work out right from your end.

It's good to hear that the big picture is going better than the backsplash picture.

Excellent job. Did you do all of the work(excluding any plumbing, electric, stuff you can`t really see)? I do all the cosmetic work stuff like installing cabinets, tiles, sheetroc, spackling, painting, etc..). I leave all the technical stuff to the plumber and electricians.

Nice job again. Cheers! You`re probably exhausted and aren`t looking to do it again. Have a beer! :GUINNESS:

Are you joking? This is Rain Man.

no. I`m pretty new to this forum and don`t know anyone here at all. Kitchen looks nice to me. Don`t know if he/she did it all themselves or had a contractor do it(didn`t read all the posts either). sorry for my ignorance. :BLVD:

if your talkin bout the pics a few posts back, thats mine. we did that a couple yr ago. i helped set the cabinets and hang rock. had the trim done. my expertise, is in what you can't see, such as the plumbing, elect.and sort. though i could go snap a pic of my furnace and duct.that you can see if you go to the basement. actually i'm kinda anxious to see rainmans reults on his house.

If I tried to redo a kitchen myself, I'd be posting update pictures like this.

http://www.anselm.edu/academic/histo...Clean%20Up.jpg

The backsplash is in, and it looks good despite the fact that GRANITE DEPOT ON DAHLIA STREET IN DENVER screwed up the cutting. I'm trying to decide now whether I'm going to continue battling with them to lower the bill or just move on.

In other news, we had the initial punch list meeting today, which was very convenient because last night the breaker to the new master bedroom blew and we lost power all night. That doesn't make me feel good.

And in perhaps the most inspiring news of all, my new computerized doorbell is up and working. I haven't had time to find a really good doorbell noise, so right now whenever anyone rings the doorbell, it's my voice saying, "Hey! There's somebody at the door!" I love this new doorbell.

Cool. The Historical Committee knows all about this, I presume?

ROFL

I'm also surprised I don't see anything about GRANITE DEPOT ON DAHLIA STREET IN DENVER in your top 10 list.

For about two hours during the inspection, I'll be playing "Westminster Chimes." Then perhaps I'll go with the music from Psycho.

Keep in mind what city my bRainman resides within.

I worked for a contractor outside of Denver, and delt with several businesses like granite, door manufacturers etc.

Oh...and the people.
"You've just blasted 80 ton of rock, poured a foundation, framed and sheeted the house and drywalled the 4000 sq' interior.....Could we just put a small rooooooooom under the foundation for my son to play in"

I"m not BSing...that quote happend.

Same house...lady buys these custom, solid oak double wide front doors....probably 3-4K....then decides they should be "distressed". The custom door company was going to charge the contractor a bazillion dollars to "distress" the wood.....We put bolts/nots on the end of a couple of chains, beat the piss out of it....paid vandalism....and she loved it.

CaliRado......

Granite Depot Eschelon Communications
 

It sounds like its time for the planet to go to work on the googledom of granite depot of Denver Colorado, and how they treat their customers nearly as poorly and unethically as Eschelon Communications.

I think the Planet should have at least a thread, with the soul intention for customer review of companies, and use our power as a group to punish poor business practices.

The planet could bring the world of a shitty company to its knees.

We're Chiefs fans. If one were searching for advice on Camaro buying or mullet care, our consumer advice might be valued. Otherwise we have no credibility.

I think I saw an ad on TV for www.angieslist dot com

This site was specifically targeted as a location to give good or bad feedback, and search what others have had to say about carpeters, plumbers, companies in your area.

Fillet them there for starters. You've already got the post typed...copy, past, send.

Eggzellent. I already found merchantcircle.com. I'll check out these other sites, too.

This forum? Rain Man is internet wide. Are you new to the internet? :p