I'm going to go with the latter of the two.

In the book I'm reading, it lists RB's and HB's. I thought they were the same thing?

Running back is kind of a general term. It encompasses both halfbacks and fullbacks. You'll also hear halfbacks referred to as "tailbacks" from time to time.

Is she ready for the h-back discussion?

Then there's up backs, scatbacks, phatbacks, factor backs, defensive backs....

... boil'd shrimp ... baked shrimp ... grilled shrimp ...

Like Najeh Davenport.

Oh dear lord. Someone throw me a life preserver. Don't think I won't Google all of this.

"I envy you - taking these first steps into a new frontier."

Try www.Blackle.com. It uses less energy (it's a google search engine).

Okay, give me a minute. I'm in the middle of laundry, and my computer is running slow....

Then it should be easy to catch!

up back - ???
scatback - an offensive back in football who is an especially fast and elusive ballcarrier
phatback - ???
factor back - ???
defensive back - safeties and cornerbacks

Up back is just the dude standing behind the line of scrimmage on punts.

Phatback and Factor back are stupid media invented terms. Don't bother.

When I played football, we ran the split T formation and the wide receiver didn't exist. Would you like to know where the WR came from? OK, stay tuned. In 1959, a cadet called Bill Carpenter was the "Lonesome End" in a unique offense employed by Army. He just stayed out near the sideline on the wide side of the field. He rarely came back to the huddle. The "D" had to put a guy out there on him (the birth of the cornerback?) The concept worked so well that other teams started splitting the WR's out wide. Carpenter is now a Brigadier General who won the Silver Star for bringing in napalm on his own troops in Vietnam when it appeared his position would be overrun.

OK, would you like to know where platoon football came from? Back in the early 50's, most players played both ways. Paul Dietzel, head coach at LSU devised a system of using all of his players to avoid fatigue. In 1958, Dietzel used three separate teams in rotation. The White team (the first string offense and defense), The GO team, (the second team offense), and the Chinese Bandits, (the second team defense). LSU won the NC that year and platoon football was born, both college and pro. Ever since then, a player is rarely used "both ways".

"Two way Tom Barndt" notwithstanding.

Which is to say, the only coach we had that was competent on both sides of the ball.

He was more than competent, though.
He was as innovative as any coach in the last 50 years.

Yeah, most of those are sophisticated/reeruned terms for simple things.

Except, of course, for "defensive back" -- you've already got that down so I don't feel the need to go over it.

As far as the offensive side of the ball, everybody lined up in the backfield behind the QB who could carry the ball is a "running back," technically. But the two major types of running backs are "full backs" and "half backs" or "tail backs," which for our purposes is the same thing. But over time, the terms half- and tail-back just kind of melted away and RB replaced them.

So to depart from technical terms and jump into just regular conversation, when you talk about "running backs," you're no longer talking about anybody that's simply behind the QB when the ball is snapped, you're talking about the guy in the backfield who's there primarily to run the ball. Larry Johnson, LaDanian Tomlinson, Shawn Alexander. They're the flashiest of the "backs"; they're the ones who rack up the yards, touchdowns, and glory.

The other guy in the backfield is the "full back." He's a role player, typically only does one or two things, and many teams across the league have started phasing him out completely. The full back's main role in the offense is to charge through the holes that the OL creates and block for the RB. They rarely get any glory, but if they're good, they're very helpful.

On our offense, we converted a tight end to FB, Kris "Bigfoot" Wilson. He's very helpful because he's fairly good at opening holes, and he'll block pretty well for the QB on pass plays. Also, he's a threat to receive the ball as a check down receiver.

"Scat back" is just a term for the Tomlinson's who are small, fast, and elusive. "Power backs" are guys like LJ who want to run over you.

You always seem to think ahead to what my next question will be, and you answer it before I ask.

I just like full explanations. Can't stand it when people give me half answers to shit I want to know.

Any opportunity I can take as a Chiefs fan to breed other Chiefs fans into a proper broth of football madness, I'm there. :)

Chicks who love football = Ubersexy

Very cool information to know. History is very important to fully understanding the game. I appreciate it.

I cant wait to actually have some active football to talk about, camp, pre-season...anything.

Even to just be able to hear about Kyle Turley spouting off about how BAD-ASS he looked in practice... :rolleyes:

Bring it on.

I want to let you in on something really quick while we're on the topic of offensive backs. Give you a real quick rundown of the backs we have on our offense:

Larry Johnson RB

You're well familiar with this gent. He's one of the NFL's elite runners, a true power back. However, for all his talent running, he's only an "okay" receiver out of the backfield, and he's a god-awful blocker on pass plays. Hopefully it's something he's working on.

Michael Bennett RB

Bennett's our backup RB to LJ. He's an accomplished guy, we traded to acquire him not long after he had a 1,000 yard season in Minnesota. But he's got a history getting injured over and over -- just like he did last season. He's still a very solid runner, so if he stays healthy, we'll see a lot of him this year. He's no where near the power runner LJ is, he's more of an agility runner -- making him a good change of pace in the backfield. (Some will call him a "change of pace back.")

Kolby Smith RB

We drafted Smith this year in the 5th round because when Bennett got hurt, we had a bunch of shitty guys left to back up LJ. As a result, LJ carries the ball a record number of times. Smith is our insurance for Bennett. He's called an "all purpose back" because he does everything you need him to (told you there were lots of reeruned terms). He's a jack of all trades -- blocking, receiving, running -- but a king of none.

Kris "Bigfoot" Wilson FB

The Chiefs do not have a "true" FB, meaning we have zero people on the team that were picked up because they play FB. We had one last season, Ronnie Cruz, but he got injured and was out for the season. Bigfoot was drafted as a TE, but we converted him to FB, and he earned the starting position (and he'll likely have it this year). He's not a mauler, but he's a decent blocker -- certainly his best quality is that he's a receiving threat any time we pass. He's a great "check down" receiver and we had a lot of success using him that way.

Boomer Grigsby FB

Here's another FB we have that we converted from another position. Grigsby's a LB that's been great on special teams but has had trouble cracking the lineup. Herm wants him on the team because he's a scrapper, so he switched this short, stocky dude to FB. Grigsby's going to specialize in blocking, especially in goal line situations when the entire defense is lining up against your OL. As you can imagine, he's probably not a great receiver.

Actually Tomlinson (and guys like Marshall Faulk and Walter Payton before him) really isn't (aren't) Scatback(s).

They have that rare combination of speed, elusiveness and power that separates them, and excludes them from being labeled.

Guys like Mercury Morris, Kevin Faulk, and Michael Bennett are scatbacks.

That's very true.

I remember he stiff-armed Wesley to get a TD when we played him in San Diego. :banghead:

Jesus, now the gay virgin is quoting Star Trek to a girl.

I envy him, taking those first steps into a new frontier.

I think you just got an offer, luv.

SO whatever happened with Cruz?

There's conflicting accounts.

He's listed as "released" in some databases that keep track of those things. Others have him on the roster. But the Chiefs themselves have never announced anything with him one way or the other.

If he's back, he's competing against a very versatile FB in Wilson, who helped us a lot last year, and Grigsby, who's obviously a favorite of the Chiefs organization.

I wouldn't have money on Cruz being on the Chiefs next year -- and if he was, I doubt we'd see him anywhere other than special teams.

I meant genetic breeding. I'm a geneticist.

If you want a child with Chiefs red & gold skin, I'm your man.

Scatback is really not a term I hear all that much these days.

Generally you hear speed oriented guys referred to as change of pace backs or third down backs, although some teams prefer a bigger, blocking back along the lines of Kimble Anders or Tony Richardson (in other words, a fullback...) in the 3rd down role, because they're better in pass protection than smaller backs.

Either way, we're talking about backup runningbacks, however you want to label them...

Since Cruz isn't on the roster, I think it's safe to say he's gone.

Cruz is listed as "released" by ESPN.

He's listed on the team, though on KFFL.

Only thing I can think to say is wait and see. But I doubt he'll be there.

It shows Casey Printers. I thought we gave him the axe last year?

He's not listed as on the team by the team, I'll take that over kffl.

Practice squad

You have to release players before you can pick them up on the practice squad. They're not part of the 53-man active roster.

It's amazing how the rb position has changed. The "franchis back" is no more. Teams will get a back run him into the ground and go forward in the draft. Unless they have an extremely rare talent ie. tomlinson, for the most part the back is as good as his offensive line.

We actually signed Printers in December to a three year deal.

He'll probably be a perennial practice squad player, since he hasn't shown much in preseasons.

And only two C's. Ouch.

Oh, the good ol' days.

Chiefs | Printers struggles in debut - from www.KFFL.com
Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:03:09 -0700

Adam Teicher, of the Kansas City Star, reports Kansas City Chiefs QB Casey Printers struggled in his NFL debut Saturday, Aug. 12, completing 6-of-12 passes for 71 yards and one interception, in addition to being sacked five times, losing a fumble, and committing an intentional grounding penalty that cost the team a field-goal opportunity.

Chiefs | Printers continues to struggle - from www.KFFL.com
Sat, 5 Aug 2006 10:32:25 -0700

Bob Gretz, of KCChiefs.com, reports Kansas City Chiefs QB Casey Printers continues to take off and run with the football at the slightest hint of pressure and has yet to develop consistent pocket presence.

Centers, you mean?

Yep.

I assume you mean "ouch" because we look shallow at the C position? I wouldn't worry about it that much.

The main reason I wouldn't worry about it is because we have Casey Weigmann. If he starts, if he doesn't start, it doesn't matter. The guy's an iron man that stays healthy and shows up week in and week out. He's like Will Shields Jr.

Second of all, even if we somehow did end up with both centers injured, the role of center is different from the role of a guard in exactly one way: he hikes the ball to the QB. Other than that, the center is basically a third guard -- making it possible for an OG to slide over to his position without much problem in that regard.

The big difference, obviously, is snapping the ball. It's not that hard of a procedure, and most any OG can do that motion, but it's a biiiiiiig rhythm thing. C's need to have a rhythm with their QB's, otherwise you're looking at a few fumbles out of the snap.

Do the chiefs have practices open to the public? Or would I have to go to the mini camp thing to see one?

Shrug. Camp at River Falls seems to be open to the public, but that's a ways off.

I do know that they do have an outdoor practice facility. I've been there. You could easily watch them if they practiced there from the TSC parking lot. But I wouldn't know how to go about it.

Okay, where did everyone go? I'm sure I can think of some more questions. :)

I'm here and in a football mood.

Come wit' it before you forgit it.

Looking ahead in my book, I've got the O-linemen, the defense, and the special teams to get through before going on to plays. Looking forward to that.

You've got the best part coming. You win games with defense and OL.

Okie dokie, smokey. I'll skip ahead to plays. I think I have a good grasp for the defense, and I can read up on special teams later. Let's see....

Oh goodness....pass patterns, play action, pump fake, throwing it away, intentional grounding, scramble.......

So much to learn before the season starts. O-line. I've been reading in other threads about who will win out for each spot. People also say we're weak. What are our holes, and why are they holes?

Easy stuff.

Pass patterns are the routes that receivers run.

Play action is when the QB fakes handing the ball off to the RB. The intention is to get the defense to bite on the fake for just one half-second, so that a speedy WR can get open.

Pump fake is when a QB pumps the ball in his hand, as if he were to throw the ball, but he holds onto it. The intent is to get a defensive back to bite on the fake pass and get out of position -- it also helps to fake the DL out of the way, since they'll often jump up to block a pass.

Intentional grounding is when a QB is obviously throwing the ball to nobody. Nobody's in the area where he's thrown the ball. It's a penalty. (It only applies to when the QB is in the pocket.)

Scrambling is when a QB tucks the ball in and runs. It can be something like Trent Green does (checks the field for open receivers, if there aren't any, he'll run) or Vince Young (doesn't even check the field, just runs).

I'd put money on us having a weak OL this year. Others like GoChiefs will contend that our OL will get better this year, but ultimately I think it's just not going to get the job done.

The main reason? We've had two HOFers retire in the last two years. With that kind of loss, it always takes a season or two to recover.

At this point, you're familiar with the positions on the OL.

LT -- LG -- C -- RG -- RT

Left Tackle
(Likely starter: Damion McIntosh. Other candidate: Will Svitek.)

Why people say we're going to suck at LT: "Damion McIntosh is an OG moved to OT. He's only a stop-gap solution, because there's no way this big slob will be able to handle speed rushers. Good LTs are an extremely hot commodity -- if he was so good, why did the Dolphins let him go and why did the Chiefs sign him for so little? Svitek's a 6th rounder, and been nothing but injured for the Chiefs. He looked good in NFL Europe, but that's a far cry from being a good OT in the NFL."

Why people say we've improved at LT: "First of all, nobody could be worse at LT than Jordan ****ing Black. You could put a ham sandwich there and it'd do better than Black. McIntosh is the perfect stopgap LT until we get a stud who can pin the position down. Over the last two years, McIntosh gave up a grand total of nine sacks with virtually no holding penalties -- that's very good, I don't care what his natural position is. And he did it on a bad OL. McIntosh can play OG, too, so not only is he pretty talented, he can play at least four positions on the OL if need be."

Left Guard
(Likely starter: Brian Waters. Other candidate: Chris Bober.)

No arguments against Brian Waters. He's an All Pro OG that is a leader in this offense.

Center
(Likely starter: Casey Wiegmann. Other candidate: Rudy Niswanger.)

Why people say we're going to suck at C: "We've been waiting and waiting for Niswanger to show us anything since we drafted him, and he hasn't seen one minute of playing time. Part of that is because Wiegmann is an iron man, but part of that is that Rudy just can't beat him out for the position when he's heavier and stronger. Wiegmann, in the mean time, is agile and smart, which is perfect for a complex offense that uses a lot of fast sweeps and pulls him out to the wing -- but in Herm's offense, a simple, down-your-throats offense, he's simply not strong enough. He got beat a lot last year by stronger DTs."

Why people say we're okay at C: "The time is right for Niswanger to make an impact. Herm's settled in for a year, he's seen the offense at work, and now he might realize that a burlier center is what this offense needs. Wiegmann's old and undersized, and isn't a fit for this offense, but he's still a talented player and he wants to play -- he can hold the fort while we wait for Niswanger or a future draftee to take over."

Right Guard
(Likely starter: John Welbourne. Other candidates: Chris Bober, Herb Taylor.)

Why people say we're going to suck at RG: "How on earth do you replace a talent like William Shields? Certainly not with a guy who's almost as old as Shields was, and once suspended for steroid usage. John Welbourne has stunk the times he's played on our OL, even if it was at OT. Who the hell even knows if he'll play the whole season? What if he tests positive again? Bober's not fast enough to play, and Herb Taylor is a 6th rounder who didn't play this position in college."

Why people say we're improved at RG: "Will Shields was elite for many years, but the decline last year was obvious. Losing him is not a major loss. Replacing him will be a guy who played next to Shields on the OL for years. John Welbourne wants to play, and he's finally going to get a chance to play his natural position -- one he did quite well at when he played there in Philadelphia. He's a proven starter, and should be an improvement over the next year or two. If nothing else, he's a great stopgap until a younger guy develops or until we draft a stud."

Right Tackle
(Likely starter: Will Svitek. Other candidates: Chris Terry, Kevin Sampson, Herb Taylor, Ramiro "Mexitackle" Pruneda.)

Why people say we're going to suck at RT: "We have no earthly idea who's going to play there! Is Chris Terry in trouble with the law, or not? Is Svitek NFL material, or not? Is Kevin Sampson capable of staying healthy for more than four games, or not? Is 6th rounder Herb Taylor worth anything, or not? Have we seen anything promising from the big Mexican, or not? It doesn't matter -- all of these guys range from barely decent to flat out bad."

Why people say we're going to improve at RT: "RT was a revolving door in 2006. Nobody played that position for more than a handful of games last year. This year, we're going to get some stability -- just as soon as we figure out who the hell's there. Svitek's been said to have earned the position thus far. Terry's a proven quality starter who will take the starting position if he stays out of trouble. Sampson played admirably when he stayed healthy. Taylor and the Mexitackles are unknown quantities at this point. But consistency will help."

Wow.

How does this compare to the Dline we already had before the draft? Did we need the defensive players we got, or did we need to focus more on the oline?

That made zero sense. We'll blame it on lack of sleep. Comparing our oline to our dline is like comparing apples to oranges. Let's focus on the second part of that post.

The Dline we already had was decent, and wasn't deep. DT James Reed has actively complained that starters on the DL had to play too many snaps and would get exhausted because there was nobody else on the bench that was any good.

You had DE Tamba Hali, DT Ron Edwards, DT James Reed, and DE Jared Allen, with only one decent backup in DE/DT Jimmy Wilkerson -- who shouldn't even have played at DT, and will just be a DE this year.

Hali and Allen got the job done, but again, had no help. Edwards and Reed are decent; they played for Herm Edwards on the Jets, and when Herm arrived in KC he realized our DTs didn't cut it and signed those two guys off the streets.

This year will be a massive improvement, both in quality and in depth.

Herm has said that he wants a rotation of 4 DTs, and 3 DEs, so that whoever's on the field is fresh and can give 100%.

We kept Edwards and Reed, and Reed should have a good shot at starting. We picked up Alphonso Boone from the Bears, a space-eating run-stuffer who was a large part of the Bears' DL's success. (That the Bears' defense is incredible needs no explanation.)

We also drafted a couple guys for the DL, as you know. Turk McBride, our second rounder, will fill in for Allen for those first four games at DE, and will spend the rest of the year at both DE and DT. He's versatile, a James Reed-esque motorhead who is tenacious and never, ever stops. And Tank Tyler's a huge bastard who is easily the strongest DT on our squad -- perhaps the strongest guy on the team. He was a steal in the 3rd and should contest for a starting position right away.

So, in quality and in depth, our DL should be much better this year.

It made enough sense. I apologize for the long-winded answers, they may be confusing.

Basically put, our OL will be one of our weakest squads this year, and our DL will be one of our strongest.

Not confusing at all. Structured to where I can focus on one section at a time.

People have said that we will be a very boring team to watch this year. While we may struggle offensively, I think it will be interesting to see us try to develop a new young QB in Croyle. Looking forward to seeing Bowe in action as well. I think there are enough fresh, new faces to keep it interesting.

For Chiefs fans, yes. This will be an intriguing year. Will our D see the boost we've been waiting for? Will the O keeps its head above water? Will Croyle stumble or will he show potential? Do we have the kicker we need?

For anybody else who has no special interest in the Chiefs like we do, we will not be a very fun team to watch. Our OL is going to be pretty weak, all our WRs are young and inexperienced outside of Kennison, Croyle's a no-name as far as the market's concerned, and the Cover 2 isn't exactly the sexiest defense out there.

Our offense isn't too sexy either.

True.

I've heard several people complain about the Cover 2. From my limited knowledge, it seems like a pretty good defense. What don't you like about it?

I can see how a man-to-man defense would be good. Everyone is responsible for their offensive counterpart. I relate that to the man-on-man defense of basketball. If we have a good enough defense, we might be able to double team. Is that terminology correct for football as well?

It's really hard for me to complain about the Cover 2. Tony Dungy (current HC for the Colts) was the HC of the Super Bowl champions Tampa Bay Buccaneers. He implemented the Cover 2 for that team, and they won the Super Bowl.

Guess who else was on that coaching staff? Lovie Smith (current HC of the Bears), and Herm Edwards. Lovie Smith implements the Cover 2 in Chicago, and they go the Super Bowl. Tony Dungy implements the Cover 2 in Indianapolis, and he wins the Super Bowl. Herm Edwards implements it here, and turns a sorry-ass defense into a Top 10 contender this year.

It churns out results. I can't deny that. I'm for whatever gets our D better.

My only concerns this year is that Donnie Edwards may lose a step at his age (LBs have to cover a lot of ground), and that for a defense that relies heavily on its safeties, we're starting two very young guys there -- let's hope they're really good.

As for double-teams, they do exist in football. Most often, they exist as "brackets" -- Tony G has to face these all the time. One defender plays in front of the player, and another plays behind him, "bracketing" him in.

or gay porn

whatever you like

As much as I could go on talking about this, I'll save anything else for later. I'm going on about 3 hours of sleep for the past 36 hours, and I have the day to spend with my mom tomorrow. I'm sure I'll pick up on this later. As for now, I'm crashing hard. Thanks for your time and the more than adequate answers, Direckshun.

Good night, and long live football.

A couple of things to clear up, although they don't directly pertain to the point you're making:

1. Dungy wasn't HC when Tampa Bay won the Superbowl. Jon Gruden was. Dungy had been roundly criticized in Tampa for the long-time failures of the Bucs offense (similar to what we're hearing about Edwards now).
2. Smith and Edwards were on Dungy's staff, but not during the Superbowl season. In 2001 (Dungy's last season, the year before the Superbowl run), Lovie Smith left to become the DC in St. Louis while Edwards was named the Jets head coach.

Shit. Thanks for clearing that up.

A couple of corrections here.

Rudy Niswanger was an undrafted free agent rookie last season.
No one has been "waiting" for him to take over for Wiegman, though some of us hope that he can.

Ron Edwards played in Buffalo for D-Line coach Tim Krumrie before signing with the Chiefs as a free gent.

Thread title should have been "I Luv Football". :D

Okay, explain restricted free agents to me in layman's terms.

Restricted free agent
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Cite This Source

In the National Football League, a restricted free agent is one with three accrued seasons of service. He has received a "qualifying" offer (a salary level predetermined by the Collective Bargaining Agreement between the league and its players) from his old club. He can negotiate with any club through a certain date. If the restricted free agent accepts an offer sheet from a new club, his old club can match the offer and retain him because it has the "right of first refusal." If the old club does not match the offer, it can possibly receive draft-choice compensation depending on the amount of its qualifying offer. If an offer sheet is not executed, the player's rights revert to his old club the day after negotiations must end.

I think I understand this, but I don't understand the outcome with JA, I guess. No one made an offer, so he belongs ot the Chiefs. What if he refuses to accept the terms set before him by the Chiefs at this point?

What happens if he doesn't come to an agreement?

I'm going to need people to grade my homework here, because I'm not fluent in free agency.

My understanding is that Jared Allen can hold out as long as he desires if he doesn't like what he's being offered.

But he's extremely unlikely to do that, because the Chiefs have offered him a generous-yet-fair offer and JA does actually want to play in KC.

This is mostly off-the-cuff, and I hope it's correct. It may not be.

IIRC, no teams were able to make an offer because Jared refused to sign the qualifying offer sheet the Chiefs presented him early in March. I believe he has to sign that sheet by June 15th (although I don't know what happens if he doesn't). That's irrelevant with regards to other teams signing him. The deadline for that was (I think) the Friday a week before the draft. The Chiefs would have had a week to match the offer made by the new team.

If the Chiefs had not matched the offer, had Jared signed it and a new team made him a contract offer, the new team that signed Jared would've had to send KC 1st and 3rd round draft choices for him.

I don't know that I'd refer to the offer as generous or fair, it was simply the league-mandated maximum tender amount for a restricted free agent.

Ah, so no one felt he was worth 1st and 3rd round draft picks.