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-   -   Chiefs Explain to me why we need to give Herm more time (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=176828)

Coach 12-18-2007 06:11 PM
Twenty-one Patriots players have scored touchdowns this season. Three teams -- Kansas City, San Francisco and Atlanta -- do not have 21 total touchdowns.

Mecca 12-18-2007 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach
Twenty-one Patriots players have scored touchdowns this season. Three teams -- Kansas City, San Francisco and Atlanta -- do not have 21 total touchdowns.
Does Randy Moss still have more TD's than our entire team..

Hammock Parties 12-18-2007 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HemiEd
I have watched their last two games in complete envy. Todd Collins has looked great and under control in that offense.
ROFL

Todd Collins was awesome in his last start. What'd he complete, 8 passes?

Coach 12-18-2007 06:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecca
Does Randy Moss still have more TD's than our entire team..
Yep. Randy Moss has 19 TD's.

DaneMcCloud 12-18-2007 06:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Lane
I could make all the excuses Dane makes for Herm for Saunders. Its not his style playersm he does have the players or coaches he wants, he needs more time. Cut him, cut Herm I'm fine with it. And Portis and all the other also rans at DC are not nearly the players you make them out to be. Like Brunell he is a shell of his former self even last year.

Dave
No, you couldn't.

Washington is CLEARLY more talented on offense than the Chiefs. Yet, Saunders hasn't been able to make them an elite unit. Your assertion is that with the Chiefs CURRENT roster, they'd still be a Top 5 unit.

How is that possible?

Brunell may be a shell, but he was certainly better than Green or Huard last year and is better than Huard this year.

Your argument holds no weight.

DaneMcCloud 12-18-2007 06:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HemiEd
Todd Collins has looked great and under control in that offense. The Chiefs let the wrong back up go, and I thought so at the time.
How does 8 of 25 "look great"?

Please advise.

Brock 12-18-2007 06:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HemiEd
They actually have looked pretty damn good on offense since their QB of the future went down. I have watched their last two games in complete envy. Todd Collins has looked great and under control in that offense. The Chiefs let the wrong back up go, and I thought so at the time.
So if Collins had led this team to a 8-5 record, you'd be happy about it?

HemiEd 12-18-2007 06:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOATSE
ROFL

Todd Collins was awesome in his last start.
Did you watch the game? 153 yards rushing and 156 yards passing, that looks pretty good to me right now.

Coach 12-18-2007 06:33 PM
I'd hazard an unscientific guess that in football, the coach can be responsible for up to a 10 percent swing in results: 10 percent more points scored under good coaching, 10 percent fewer under bad coaching. In a close game or a Super Bowl run, that 10 percent swing really matters.

Tribal Warfare 12-18-2007 06:36 PM
It was always my opinion that a good HC can turn a team to a contender in 2 years, the 1st year is the remnants of the prior coach(usually a losing season). The 2nd year is that HC's team and if it regresses then that's the reflection on his coaching and scouting ability.

DaneMcCloud 12-18-2007 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HemiEd
Did you watch the game? 153 yards rushing and 156 yards passing, that looks pretty good to me right now.
Ed, he was 8 for 25. Not even 50%. That's 32%!

You think that a 32% passer "looks pretty good"?

W.T.F.?

DaneMcCloud 12-18-2007 06:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribal Warfare
It was always my opinion that a good HC can turn a team to a contender in 2 years, the 1st year is the remnants of the prior coach(usually a losing season). The 2nd year is that HC's team and if it regresses then that's the reflection on his coaching and scouting ability.
I think three years is more the standard, but it also depends on the state of the personnel.

Considering that every starter with the exception of LJ was over the age of thirty to begin the 2007 season, ANY head coach would have to be given more time to rebuild.

HemiEd 12-18-2007 06:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock
So if Collins had led this team to a 8-5 record, you'd be happy about it?
Oh hell yes, a lot happier than the pathetic display we have witnessed this year. See, I don't buy into the lack of talent BS. I think it is coaching. Herm has lowered my standards considerable.

Hammock Parties 12-18-2007 07:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HemiEd
See, I don't buy into the lack of talent BS.
So how many points was our collection of offensive talent capable of producing this year?

DaneMcCloud 12-18-2007 07:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HemiEd
See, I don't buy into the lack of talent BS. I think it is coaching. Herm has lowered my standards considerable.

You are officially, an idiot.

Turley, Terry, Welbourn, McIntosh nor Weigmann would not be starting for ANY other NFL team. Period. There is absolutely NO WAY that all of them should have been playing at all, albeit, together!

But I'm sure they're all just Pro-Bowlers with a different coach, right?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

HemiEd 12-18-2007 07:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOATSE
So how many points was our collection of offensive talent capable of producing this year?
I have no idea, do you? You think they were performing at their capability? So miraculously, the Chiefs ended up with all the turds?

The one common denominator with this offensive decline, and recent defensive decline, is the coaching. The players don't buy it and it is nothing new.

So do you throw out all the players? Not usually.

Hammock Parties 12-18-2007 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HemiEd
I have no idea, do you? You think they were performing at their capability? So miraculously, the Chiefs ended up with all the turds?
Not all of the players are turds. We can clearly see LJ, Kolby, Bowe, Tony, at times Croyle, and even Webb at times, are not turds.

But 3/5 of that o-line?

Turds.

DaneMcCloud 12-18-2007 07:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HemiEd
I have no idea, do you? You think they were performing at their capability? So miraculously, the Chiefs ended up with all the turds?
That's usually what happens when you ignore your offensive line for 9 YEARS.

The Chiefs haven't drafted a FIRST DAY offensive lineman since 1999.

How could you expect the results to be any different?

HemiEd 12-18-2007 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOATSE
Not all of the players are turds. We can clearly see LJ, Kolby, Bowe, Tony, at times Croyle, and even Webb at times, are not turds.

But 3/5 of that o-line?

Turds.
Ok, not trying to have it both ways. Who assembled that group coming out of camp?

To what do you attribute the Defensive decline? Did the talent go to shit all of a sudden?

Mecca 12-18-2007 07:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOATSE
Not all of the players are turds. We can clearly see LJ, Kolby, Bowe, Tony, at times Croyle, and even Webb at times, are not turds.

But 3/5 of that o-line?

Turds.
The Chiefs are pretty untalented as a whole, at least compared to other teams.

We made LJ a turd by running him into the ground.

Hammock Parties 12-18-2007 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HemiEd
Ok, not trying to have it both ways. Who assembled that group coming out of camp?

To what do you attribute the Defensive decline? Did the talent go to shit all of a sudden?
You know I've lost faith in Herm. But according to Nick, management convinced Herm that playing the status quo with this offensive line was acceptable before training camp. Herm went along with it. Maybe he was foolish for doing that.

I don't know why the defense has suddenly gone under. Probably because half of the players are quitting. That is a coaching problem, for sure. Again, you know I've lost faith in Herm and wish Gunther was shown the door.

But to say these linemen are talented...well, it's just flat out dumb.

FAX 12-18-2007 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOATSE
You know I've lost faith in Herm. But according to Nick, management convinced Herm that playing the status quo with this offensive line was acceptable before training camp. Herm went along with it. Maybe he was foolish for doing that.

I don't know why the defense has suddenly gone under. Probably because half of the players are quitting. That is a coaching problem, for sure. Again, you know I've lost faith in Herm and wish Gunther was shown the door.

But to say these linemen are talented...well, it's just flat out dumb.
In journalism, that's what you call one of those "understatement" things, isn't it?

FAX

HemiEd 12-18-2007 07:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOATSE
You know I've lost faith in Herm. But according to Nick, management convinced Herm that playing the status quo with this offensive line was acceptable before training camp. Herm went along with it. Maybe he was foolish for doing that.

I don't know why the defense has suddenly gone under. Probably because half of the players are quitting. That is a coaching problem, for sure. Again, you know I've lost faith in Herm and wish Gunther was shown the door.

But to say these linemen are talented...well, it's just flat out dumb.
Good explanation.
Who brought in Chris Terry? Herm had Turley last year and he sucked. Why would he bring him back? He must have thought they were good enough. He either made bad choices, or could not provide proper coaching IMO.

I think the players have lost faith in the guy and have quit. They are not good enough to make up for all the shortcomings under the Herm administration. I think a better HC would have a lot more success with the same guys.

Hammock Parties 12-18-2007 08:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HemiEd
I think a better HC would have a lot more success with the same guys.
Yeah, maybe we could have gone 7-9 instead of 4-12.

HemiEd 12-18-2007 08:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOATSE
Yeah, maybe we could have gone 7-9 instead of 4-12.
That would be an improvement. So if that same coaching staff, that got 7-9 out of this group, was given more talent, what would they accomplish?
I just can't visualize Herm coaching the Chiefs to any success.

NUKED 12-18-2007 08:29 PM
h

L.A. Chieffan 12-18-2007 08:29 PM
nice

Fish 12-18-2007 08:31 PM
Have you guys met Anette Dawn?

She's nice, but she can't stay long........

Chiefnj2 12-18-2007 10:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud
You are officially, an idiot.

Turley, Terry, Welbourn, McIntosh nor Weigmann would not be starting for ANY other NFL team. Period. There is absolutely NO WAY that all of them should have been playing at all, albeit, together!

But I'm sure they're all just Pro-Bowlers with a different coach, right?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Except McIntosh was a starter with the Dolphins and Weigman was playing at a high level two years ago. Turley, Terry and Welbourn wouldn't be playing anywhere else except for the dumb ass coach and GM that gave them a starting spot in KC. Fielding a group of JV players isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of the head coaches prowess for finding talent.

dallaschiefsfan 12-18-2007 10:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOATSE
Yeah, maybe we could have gone 7-9 instead of 4-12.
Yeah...and under what form of reality is that NOT better? If another coach could get this exact team to 7-9, then Herm isn't getting the most out of this team...which means he's a problem.

dallaschiefsfan 12-18-2007 10:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud
I think three years is more the standard, but it also depends on the state of the personnel.
While you could be partially right about three years, the thinking is flawed in regard to Herm. I can't think of an example of a successful coach that was given three years...AND finally turned it around in year three WITHOUT finishing strong and improving dramatically at the end of season 2.

FAX 12-18-2007 10:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallaschiefsfan
Yeah...and under what form of reality is that NOT better? If another coach could get this exact team to 7-9, then Herm isn't getting the most out of this team...which means he's a problem.
I wonder if you guys have noticed the funny direction Herm's been spinning this over the last couple of weeks. Basically, he's saying that, as far back as camp, the coaches thought this disaster could potentially happen. He's said that, if "things" had turned out one way they had predicted, we would have been a playoff team again. But, if "things" turned out the other way they had forecast, we would suck (you know, like we do and all).

This is amazing spin to me. I think that what Herm's trying to get across is the idea that he is so smart that he figured this butt hump was a possibility from the beginning which makes him the ultimate football genius and mind melder supreme. Still, no one in the KC media is asking him, if he knew this was a possibility, why didn't he do something to prevent it?

FAX

Mecca 12-18-2007 10:29 PM
There wasn't really a whole lot you could do.....

The team wasn't that talented last year and more or less got lucky. You only have so many players, coaching is a problem but this team lacks talent....

Even if they had awesome drafts the last 2 years this team would still suck...unless you wanted to sign 30 FA's and spend huge money and then be in this spot again in 3 years.

FAX 12-18-2007 10:31 PM
I can think of no enterprise of any kind run by any person with any sense whatsoever that would tolerate a prediction of potential full meltdown and take no action to prevent it.

FAX

Mecca 12-18-2007 10:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAX
I can think of no enterprise of any kind run by any person with any sense whatsoever that would tolerate a prediction of potential full meltdown and take no action to prevent it.

FAX
Ok what do you want to be done? Even if the best coach and personnel guy in the world had taken this job...the team was and still is old as hell, you can only do so much...

I still think some fans lack this understanding, when you get in this spot you will have a couple really bad years. No one competes while rebuilding.

I think Herms idea in theory is right, I just don't think he's the right guy to do it. You can have the right idea all you want still doesn't mean you'll get it right.

Hammock Parties 12-18-2007 10:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallaschiefsfan
Yeah...and under what form of reality is that NOT better? If another coach could get this exact team to 7-9, then Herm isn't getting the most out of this team...which means he's a problem.
LOL

Didn't we just get done bitching about the Chiefs having a mediocre record?

Mecca 12-18-2007 10:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOATSE
LOL

Didn't we just get done bitching about the Chiefs having a mediocre record?
Some people feel better about themselves and the team when they go 7-9 but are in "contention" the whole year. I hate that shit, I don't wanna sneak in the playoffs and get pelted.

You know what the worst thing that happened to this franchise is? The Steelers a couple years ago that actually won the bowl as a 6 seed....now the Chiefs hold onto it like they can do it even though it's an extreme long shot.

dallaschiefsfan 12-18-2007 10:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOATSE
LOL

Didn't we just get done bitching about the Chiefs having a mediocre record?
who's "we"? If the talent is a 7-9 team...then a solid coach gets them there. A bad coach ensures they underperform. A great coach squeezes them to 8-8 or 9-7.

FAX 12-18-2007 10:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecca
Ok what do you want to be done? Even if the best coach and personnel guy in the world had taken this job...the team was and still is old as hell, you can only do so much...

I still think some fans lack this understanding, when you get in this spot you will have a couple really bad years. No one competes while rebuilding.

I think Herms idea in theory is right, I just don't think he's the right guy to do it. You can have the right idea all you want still doesn't mean you'll get it right.
I know the point was delicate, Mr. Mecca. Perhaps too much so. Let me try again.

Let's say you're a tour guide and you don't get paid until the tour is over. So you take your group downtown to see the fancy buildings. Then, as you're discussing the finer points of neo-classical architecture, you notice that one of the buildings is collapsing and about to fall on your customers. Realizing that if it does so, your money will be buried under 5000 tons of brick and steel and you'll be spending the night giving statements at the police station and picking body parts off your suit.

Do you take an action? Even more to the point, do you come out the next day and say ... you know, we knew all along that was a possibility and decided to let them stand there anyhow.

FAX

Mecca 12-18-2007 10:41 PM
That team....doesn't have 7-9 talent......it has 4-12 5-11 talent.

Hammock Parties 12-18-2007 10:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallaschiefsfan
who's "we"? If the talent is a 7-9 team...then a solid coach gets them there. A bad coach ensures they underperform. A great coach squeezes them to 8-8 or 9-7.
It's irrelevant, anyway. This team doesn't have the talent to win 7 games. They are what they are.

Mecca 12-18-2007 10:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAX
I know the point was delicate, Mr. Mecca. Perhaps too much so. Let me try again.

Let's say you're a tour guide and you don't get paid until the tour is over. So you take your group downtown to see the fancy buildings. Then, as you're discussing the finer points of neo-classical architecture, you notice that one of the buildings is collapsing and about to fall on your customers. Realizing that if it does so, your money will be buried under 5000 tons of brick and steel and you'll be spending the night giving statements at the police station and picking body parts off your suit.

Do you take an action? Even more to the point, do you come out the next day and say ... you know, we knew all along that was a possibility and decided to let them stand there anyhow.

FAX
Like I said though...what do you expect them to do? Numerous teams go into years fully knowing they may be bad that year and maybe even the next couple of years.

dallaschiefsfan 12-18-2007 10:43 PM
[QUOTE=Mecca]Some people feel better about themselves and the team when they go 7-9 but are in "contention" the whole year. I hate that shit, I don't wanna sneak in the playoffs and get pelted.

You know what the worst thing that happened to this franchise is? The Steelers a couple years ago that actually won the bowl as a 6 seed....now the Chiefs hold onto it like they can do it even though it's an extreme long shot.[/QUOTED]

While I might agree with your larger point...this thread is about why Herm doesn't deserve another year. If this team's talent could yield a 7-9 record (regardless of whether that medicore sh** pisses you off or not), than a coach that can't get it there should be canned.

Mecca 12-18-2007 10:45 PM
I don't think Herm is a very good coach either, but at the same time I don't think this team would be any good even with a great coach.

Coach 12-18-2007 10:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecca
Ok what do you want to be done? Even if the best coach and personnel guy in the world had taken this job...the team was and still is old as hell, you can only do so much...

I still think some fans lack this understanding, when you get in this spot you will have a couple really bad years. No one competes while rebuilding.

I think Herms idea in theory is right, I just don't think he's the right guy to do it. You can have the right idea all you want still doesn't mean you'll get it right.
If I took this job, and if I'm spewing that I am wanting to do a rebuilding mode, then I damn well better do it.

And rebuilding isn't exactly having all of your 30 year old guys as your starting offensive linemen, along with a 34 year old career back-up Caption Checkdown and his wobbly duck. I should also point out that for whatever reason, Herm had Holmes over Kolby.

Sorry, his theory isn't right, especially when I just stated the obvious.

dallaschiefsfan 12-18-2007 10:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecca
I don't think Herm is a very good coach either, but at the same time I don't think this team would be any good even with a great coach.
Well...on the former point we agree...on the latter, we disagree. I don't think the talent on this team is close to championship level at all...but I don't believe their talent should yield a 4-12 record...especially in this division.

Mecca 12-18-2007 10:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach
If I took this job, and if I'm spewing that I am wanting to do a rebuilding mode, then I damn well better do it.

And rebuilding isn't exactly having all of your 30 year old guys as your starting offensive linemen, along with a 34 year old career back-up Caption Checkdown and his wobbly duck. I should also point out that for whatever reason, Herm had Holmes over Kolby.

Sorry, his theory isn't right, especially when I just stated the obvious.
Well he's dealing with Carl Peterson who doesn't want to rebuild at all.....this team tried to do a halfass rebuild because Peterson doesn't want a full one...

And this is what we got....

Coach 12-18-2007 10:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecca
I don't think Herm is a very good coach either, but at the same time I don't think this team would be any good even with a great coach.
Disagree. Buffalo was predicted to finish 4th in their conference, but Juaron did a hell of a job there, despite with the QB issues.

I can think of at least 3 games that the Chiefs COULD have won the game, have it not been for piss-poor coaching.

The Broncos game @ Arrowhead. Jesus, getting whipped by their JV squad was a piss-poor preperation by the coaching staff.

The Colts game @ Indy. Yes, I know the Colts weren't 100% in all areas, and we caught them when Manning was struggling terribly. But it was 10-10 and the game was there for the taking.

The Raiders game @ Arrowhead. Need I say more?

chiefbowe82 12-18-2007 10:53 PM
I can't believe how much younger we're getting.
Croyle-YOUNG
Johnson YOUNG Smith YOUNG
FB YOUNG probably a new YOUNG one
WR-YOUNG Bowe
WR-YOUNG FA or DRAFT?
TE-Gonzo
LT-YOUNG 1st round
LG-MIDDLE AGED FA
C-OLD AS DIRT
RG-Waters
RT-middled aged
DE-YOUNG Allen
DT-YOUNG TURK
DT-YOUNG TANK
DE-YOUNG HALI
OLB-YOUNG JOHNSON
MLB-Mid Aged
OLB-Edwards OLD
FS-YOUNG Page
SS-YOUNG Pollard
CB-Law/Surtain OLD
CB-YOUNG Brack?
P-YOUNG Colquitt
K-YOUNG Rayner? Medlock? FA?
LS-Darche Younger than gammon
Could be our starters next season?

Mecca 12-18-2007 10:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach
Disagree. Buffalo was predicted to finish 4th in their conference, but Juaron did a hell of a job there, despite with the QB issues.

I can think of at least 3 games that the Chiefs COULD have won the game, have it not been for piss-poor coaching.

The Broncos game @ Arrowhead. Jesus, getting whipped by their JV squad was a piss-poor preperation by the coaching staff.

The Colts game @ Indy. Yes, I know the Colts weren't 100% in all areas, and we caught them when Manning was struggling terribly. But it was 10-10 and the game was there for the taking.

The Raiders game @ Arrowhead. Need I say more?
Buffalo has more talent than we do........even with their 15 guys on IR. They have a lot more when their team is healthy, just no one really notices.

Coach 12-18-2007 10:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecca
Well he's dealing with Carl Peterson who doesn't want to rebuild at all.....this team tried to do a halfass rebuild because Peterson doesn't want a full one...

And this is what we got....
Well, I partly agree, but also disagree as well. When was the last O-lineman that Herm actually drafted in the first two rounds, in his time in NY.

Oh, that's right. Zero.

Mecca 12-18-2007 10:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach
Well, I partly agree, but also disagree as well. When was the last O-lineman that Herm actually drafted in the first two rounds, in his time in NY.

Oh, that's right. Zero.
Well only 1 of NE's Olineman was taken in the 1st 2 rounds.....it's not a requirement or anything.

FAX 12-18-2007 10:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecca
Like I said though...what do you expect them to do? Numerous teams go into years fully knowing they may be bad that year and maybe even the next couple of years.
I very much like the idea of building a young team that can give us a solid foundation for the next decade. And I, for one, am willing to take the pain associated with that effort, Mr. Mecca. I've been very consistent about that.

But remember that Herm has also repeatedly said that this team/season has not met his expectations. You can't have it both ways - unless you're Herm, I suppose. Either you expected to be better or you didn't. Frankly, if he perceived that this kind of season was even a remote possibility (and remember also that Herm has said this was one possible outcome he predicted as far back as the off-season), he could have and should have made changes early on to forestall the problems the organization is facing.

As far as what could have been done, there are so many specific examples of changes he could have made and that were available to him before kickoff number one, I honestly don't want to list them all.

FAX

Coach 12-18-2007 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecca
Buffalo has more talent than we do........even with their 15 guys on IR. They have a lot more when their team is healthy, just no one really notices.
That's becuase the coaching staff in Buffalo have done a good job, despite 15 guys on IR.

That's a testament on how a fine job they done.

We only have what, 6-7 guys on IR? None of them are what you consider "starters"

The only major injury on a starter was Larry Johnson, and for some unknown reason, he's not on the IR.

Mecca 12-18-2007 10:59 PM
Oh that is lip service shit no question. I can see why Carl wants to be 8-8 every year there are a lot of fans in this town that can't even take 1 bad year, let alone 2 or 3.

FAX 12-18-2007 11:00 PM
You don't have to be a dick, Mr. Mecca.

A lot of people are willing to take the losses associated with a "rebuild". No question about it. But, why make it more difficult than it has to be?

FAX

Mecca 12-18-2007 11:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAX
You don't have to be a dick, Mr. Mecca.

A lot of people are willing to take the losses associated with a "rebuild". No question about it. But, why make it more difficult than it has to be?

FAX
It was more a general comment than being a dick to you......look at how people react in general in the city after this year......

Mecca 12-18-2007 11:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach
That's becuase the coaching staff in Buffalo have done a good job, despite 15 guys on IR.

That's a testament on how a fine job they done.

We only have what, 6-7 guys on IR? None of them are what you consider "starters"

The only major injury on a starter was Larry Johnson, and for some unknown reason, he's not on the IR.
But they still have a base.......the Chiefs really don't have much to compete with Lee Evans, Jason Peters, Derrick Dockery Donte Whitner and so forth.

Coach 12-18-2007 11:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecca
Well only 1 of NE's Olineman was taken in the 1st 2 rounds.....it's not a requirement or anything.
Yes, but I'm talking about the draft in whole.

2005 - 0 O-lineman
2004 - 1 O-lineman in the 6th round
2003 - 1 O-lineman in the 7th round
2002 - 1 O-lineman in the 5th round
2001 - 1 O-lineman in the 3rd round

No wonder why their QB's were dropping like flies.

Coach 12-18-2007 11:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecca
But they still have a base.......the Chiefs really don't have much to compete with Lee Evans, Jason Peters, Derrick Dockery Donte Whitner and so forth.
They do have much to compete with. Jared Allen, Tamba Hali, Derrick Johnson, Dustin Colquitt, Larry Johnson, Brian Waters.

Look, the talent is there. I just think it's being very poorly mis-used.

Chiefnj2 12-18-2007 11:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecca
It was more a general comment than being a dick to you......look at how people react in general in the city after this year......
People are acting this way because there is no plan. The team is in disarray. It wasn't a real rebuilding year, it was half-assed and will get half-assed results with continued poor coaching and poor personnel decisions.

Mecca 12-18-2007 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach
They do have much to compete with. Jared Allen, Tamba Hali, Derrick Johnson, Dustin Colquitt, Larry Johnson, Brian Waters.

Look, the talent is there. I just think it's being very poorly mis-used.
You listed the punter, cmon......ok Buffalo has a really good punter too...

And as it stands I'd rather have Marshawn Lynch than Larry Johnson...

Mecca 12-18-2007 11:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiefnj2
People are acting this way because there is no plan. The team is in disarray. It wasn't a real rebuilding year, it was half-assed and will get half-assed results with continued poor coaching and poor personnel decisions.
Now that pretty much sums it up really well. I however think there'd still be numerous people flipping out even if there was a real plan. I honestly have no faith in them to do it properly.

Coach 12-18-2007 11:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecca
You listed the punter, cmon......ok Buffalo has a really good punter too...

And as it stands I'd rather have Marshawn Lynch than Larry Johnson...
And I would too. But to write off Larry Johnson as if he's like Johnny Johnson, no. :shake:

Look, it's obvious. This coaching staff does not have a clue on how to make the proper adjustments, especially after halftime.

That's one of the reasons why the Chiefs do well in the first half, but then suck major ass in the 2nd half. There is no adjustment. You have to adjust, even if things are working for you in the first half, becuase the other team will adjust their stuff to counter your best stuff that was working in the first half.

RedThat 12-20-2007 03:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecca
I don't think Herm is a very good coach either, but at the same time I don't think this team would be any good even with a great coach.
ROFL Are you serious?

you don't think this team would be good with a great coach?

that's like saying this team wouldn't be good if they had peyton manning either?

no offense, but that's a little overboard, and pure doom and gloom.

HemiEd 12-30-2007 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOATSE
ROFL

Todd Collins was awesome in his last start. What'd he complete, 8 passes?
Watch the games. Like I said, the Chiefs kept the wrong guy.

mcan 12-30-2007 07:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach
And I would too. But to write off Larry Johnson as if he's like Johnny Johnson, no. :shake:

Look, it's obvious. This coaching staff does not have a clue on how to make the proper adjustments, especially after halftime.

That's one of the reasons why the Chiefs do well in the first half, but then suck major ass in the 2nd half. There is no adjustment. You have to adjust, even if things are working for you in the first half, becuase the other team will adjust their stuff to counter your best stuff that was working in the first half.

We suck in the second half because Herm Edwards believes in short practices. So we practice for an hour and half. Then we play the game and look OK for an hour and a half. When we come back out, we're tired... The other guys... Not so much.

We have many other problems as well, but this is the reason for the first/second half descrepancy, IMO...

Eleazar 12-30-2007 07:26 PM
The more time goes by, the more it sounds like Herm wanted to really rebuild and Carl was impeding him.

I'm not a Herm pimp, but seriously, nobody could have thought this team was going to be competitive. And Carl said on his radio show that they thought the oline would be good enough because they were veteran.

I don't think Herm is a good coach, but he had to know better than that.

This is 75% on Carl IMO

ptlyon 12-30-2007 07:28 PM
We fire that ****er yet?

dallaschiefsfan 12-30-2007 07:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochise
The more time goes by, the more it sounds like Herm wanted to really rebuild and Carl was impeding him.

I'm not a Herm pimp, but seriously, nobody could have thought this team was going to be competitive. And Carl said on his radio show that they thought the oline would be good enough because they were veteran.

I don't think Herm is a good coach, but he had to know better than that.

This is 75% on Carl IMO
I can only partially agree with this. I really believe Vermeil/Saunders would have made this line competitive because they would have had them pulling more...which is what this group does well (Macintosh might be the exception). Instead, Herm stubbornly had them blocking in a way that did not accentuate this group's skills...and for that, I will not let Herm off the hook. Carl should be fired because he hired Herm...but he is partially right when he says that this group could have been decent.

a1na2 12-30-2007 07:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Lane
After seeing my worst fears come true in Herm with the Jetsification of the Chiefs (a top 5 draft pick) and the destruction of a team. I wonder in this microwave world of instant gratification how is it we cling to the notion 2 years doesn't set a trend especially giving his previous body of work. So I thought well surely 2 years must be handed out like candy in the past to any head coach and then it occurred to me to check the Chiefs history to confirm this.

Chiefs Head Coaches with shortest tenures:

Tom Bettis - 1977
Frank Gansz - 1987-1988
Gunther Cunningham - 1999-2000
Paul Wiggin - 1975-1977
John Mackovic - 1983-1986

Thats half of the Chiefs Head Coaches in the history of this team. 3 of them are 2 years or less. So in the present world why not cut ties with Herm. Actually excluding Herm 33% of Chiefs coaches have had a tenure of 2 years or less. And yes I know Bettis is a bad choice. Still 2 years of Herm like performance has cost coaches their jobs in the past.

Dave
There is absolutely no reason to keep him as the HC. I don't think as poorly of Carl as most do but if we are going to do the deed we need to make a clean sweep. All Coaches as well as the GM.

Chief Faithful 12-30-2007 07:44 PM
Why do we need to give Herm more time? Because we have absolutely no say in the matter. Since I am a faithful fan I'm giving him more time.

TN_Chief 12-30-2007 07:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallaschiefsfan
I can only partially agree with this. I really believe Vermeil/Saunders would have made this line competitive because they would have had them pulling more...which is what this group does well (Macintosh might be the exception). Instead, Herm stubbornly had them blocking in a way that did not accentuate this group's skills...and for that, I will not let Herm off the hook. Carl should be fired because he hired Herm...but he is partially right when he says that this group could have been decent.
A-****ing-men. Among Herm's many problems is his absolute refusal to construct gameplans and coach to his talent. Instead of playcalling to what they do well, Herm's philosophy is to continue trying to jam square pegs into round holes.

FringeNC 12-30-2007 07:47 PM
Carl needs to go, obviously. Having said that, I don't envy having the decision to make about Herm. It's obvious that the Chiefs were just a terribly-coached team this year. Carl has to know that. But he just gave a draft pick for the guy, and if rumors are to be believed, shoved Vermeil, his friend, out the door for this guy, and Carl never admits to a mistake. My guess is Carl sides with his ego, and convinces himself that Herm isn't the disaster he appears to be.

TN_Chief 12-30-2007 07:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Faithful
Since I am a faithful fan I'm giving him more time.
Wise up Slappy. Blind faith to the men running this team is idiotic. They have not proven themselves worthy of it.

dallaschiefsfan 12-30-2007 07:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Faithful
Why do we need to give Herm more time? Because we have absolutely no say in the matter. Since I am a faithful fan I'm giving him more time.
"'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

An over-the-top quote to be sure...but Carl/Herm are officially cancers to this organization...blind loyalty cannot be the response at this point.

Eleazar 12-30-2007 07:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallaschiefsfan
I can only partially agree with this. I really believe Vermeil/Saunders would have made this line competitive because they would have had them pulling more...
Those guys suck ass. It's not like they are Vermeil holdovers who would be awesome if they were pulling. They could be driving tanks and they'd still have guys whipping around them like the Indy 500.

a1na2 12-30-2007 07:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TN_Chief
A-****ing-men. Among Herm's many problems is his absolute refusal to construct gameplans and coach to his talent. Instead of playcalling to what they do well, Herm's philosophy is to continue trying to jam square pegs into round holes.
It is very good to see that others realize that it's not that we don't have the talent on the team but that the HC is old school and cannot properly utilize what he has.

Why didn't Hermit throw the 65 yd pass to someone that could catch it? Why did we throw so few times to Bowe? Could it be due to the fact that Hermit wanted to lose this game? ( I don't really think so, but why would you shut out your best WR? )

dallaschiefsfan 12-30-2007 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochise
Those guys suck ass. It's not like they are Vermeil holdovers who would be awesome if they were pulling. They could be driving tanks and they'd still have guys whipping around them like the Indy 500.
Sorry dude...you've said nothing convincing. We'll simply never know whether these guys really degraded as fast as people think because they instantly got thrown into a blocking system that was not their thing. Even Brian Waters wasn't up to snuff this year. Why? Because he was more suited for the previous style of pulling more often. Others can see this...you can not. We disagree. Move on.

Oh...and the middle three ARE Vermeil holdovers...

Eleazar 12-30-2007 07:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallaschiefsfan
Sorry dude...you've said nothing convincing. We'll simply never know whether these guys really degraded as fast as people think because they instantly got thrown into a blocking system that was not their thing. Even Brian Waters wasn't up to snuff this year. Why? Because he was more suited for the previous style of pulling more often. Others can see this...you can not. We disagree. Move on.

Oh...and the middle three ARE Vermeil holdovers...
When was McIntosh good? He's just a body. Waters is fine, but he can't block two people at once. Weigman was an undersized players specialized to that system, which left three years ago. Welborne has always sucked. Terry sucks. Svitek sucks. No one else has shown anything at all. We have 1.5 legitimate NFL offensive line starters on our roster. Our entire roster is depleted.

It just doesn't wash. There isn't anyone outside of Waters who definitely deserves to start on a good offensive line.


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