LOL, boy that's tough......I'd trade Brian Waters for a number of QB's.

QB>Guard by only about a million points.

K.

Did you see the colts without Jeff Saturday? Yeah, didn't do so hot.

Look at when we had Tony Richardson, or look at Lorenzo Neal, wherever he went the guy rushed for a 1000 yards.


And I'm not saying Shields is more important than Elway. When a QB is an amazing obvious Hall of Famer it changes things. But if I was building a team, this is the order of importance to picking guys. You put Elway in there without good Guards and he won't be able to step up in the pocket. You put generic quarterback number 3 in a well protected pocket and he'll pick apart the defense.

Ah k.. So a nose tackle in 3-4 is valuable enough to take with a top 5 pick... On another note, do you think Dorsey can play end in a 3-4??

I think he could, personally. Supposedly, he operates best in space.

Did you watch the Chiefs under Steve Bono? JESUS. Point and case.

Brian Waters is 31, so hell yes if it was an option, but it never would be. So do you mean if they were both rookies? I don't know, depends on the situation, how easily could we replace waters, what depth do we have, whats the QB situation? If it was the draft and we're considering who to pick it'd be close. I really like Matt Ryan because he played at BC where he wasn't well protected like Sanchez was at USC, the guy was succeeding despite not being protected well, that's the mark of greatness, so I would probably have taken him. A qb succeeding without protection is a difference maker. A qb succeeding while well protected hasn't proved himself to me yet.

Obviously you have not watched enough SC. Also if they were both rookies, you could draft waters in the 2nd round to 3rd round even if you knew exactly who he would become.

Where was Jeff Saturday drafted?

This will easily prove the point on draft day, you can tell me they are valuable in games great, all positions are but in relating to the draft interior lineman are not valuable. Many late round and undrafted players are productive interior lineman...

You need to separate positional value of the draft and it on the field.

I dont know. The guy was touted as being an athletic phenomenon that would be a sure hit in the NFL, but who knows.

It seemed he struggled somewhat in the nose tackle postion he played this year in the 4-3.. Im just not sure that an end in a 3-4 takes that much of a different role.. But yer i guess the space may benift him somewhat...

They have an immense talent base, they have so many weapons and an awesome defense. Sanchez was definitely not pressured as much as Ryan was at BC.

This is really funny, Mark Sanchez got hit quite a bit...you're looking at the SC name nothing more I bet you honestly can't name the starting SC line or their years of experience..there isn't superior NFL talent all across that offense, without Sanchez it will be reflected.

And I'm sorry a guard is much easier replaced than nearly any other position.

All d-lineman barring that freak warren sapp struggle in their first 1-2 years. He'll come around yet.

No i understand that.. Even Sapp wasnt all out his first year.. But my point is i can see him being great in a tommie harris type role and not so much as a space eater, which he would be in a 3-4 situation...

I'm an SC fan, I'd love to hear who you think the immense talent on offense is, defense sure, offense no.

Here's a fun hypothetical. Would you trade a #3 draft pick for Tommie Harris right now if we were to stay in the 4-3? I think I would. It'd take forever for me to decide, but I think I would.

I wouldn't because he's injury prone and we don't have a QB...

This is going to be one of the few times in franchise history we'll have a chance at one and it pisses me off to see some people want to take a OT with it when we took one last year.

Mecca, what is your take on the trade down possibility? Is it conceivable to trade down to the 5-8 range and still nab Sanchez or Stafford? If so, whom do you think is the most realistic candidate for wanting to trade to the 3 spot?

Yer prob this.. Rather high on stafford and Sanchez.. otherwise i would...

I'm sorry, but there's no way Sanchez was in as tough a spot as Ryan was at BC. Maybe he didn't have top prospects around him like Leinart did but it's freakin USC they recruit like nobody's business. BC on the other hand...not so much.

I would much rather be taking a guy from I-AA Delaware who wasn't surrounded by one of the best teams in the country.

Look at the record

last year Flacco from Delaware, Ryan from BC both are instant hits.

2007 Jamarcus from powerhouse LSU hasn't done much, Brady Quinn at Notre Dame, I know they have been sucking, but they still recruit very well.

2006 you have Vince Young from Texas, Matt Leinart from USC, and who's the successful one? Cutler from Vanderbilt..

Eli went to Ole Miss, a good team, but in a strong SEC, he was certainly tested.

Rivers went to NC State, they're not that great.

Roethlisberger went to Miami of Ohio.

Kyle Boller went to CAl, Rex Grossman Florida. Not so good.

Carson Palmer is the exception.

Recent history doesn't favor the QBs from top schools.

I just don't see it as possible you're going to ask a team to give up basically 3 or 4 high picks, not to mention you just dropped below Cincinatti and Cleveland so it's risky.

Way to not take circumstance and situation into the factor here lol, that's one of the funniest things I've ever read you want me to pick it apart because I'm pretty sure you realize how flawed it is...

If Cincy gave up on Palmer, I think that would be beyond stupid. I also don't know that the Browns would be willing to draft a QB after giving Anderson his fat sack o cash.

I'm talking about them giving up their pick to a team that wants a QB.

That is much more logical than my thought. Thanks for clarifying.

Ok lets see.

Russell got saddled with the Raiders, give him time. Though Ryan and Flacco both went to teams with terrible records last year. Vince Young and Matt Leinart though are both on teams that got to the 2nd round of the playoffs with them on the bench. Give me a good reason why circumstances have been against them succeeding when their teams are succeeding with them on the bench. While Cutler has been doing a pretty good job in Denver.

Boller and Grossman were both in big-time college programs and went to teams with solid defenses that just asked them to manage the games and they couldn't do that too well. Grossman got to a super bowl, but he's certainly not a big reason why they got that far. Boller has failed miserably and had Flacco step into roughly the same situation and do extremely well. So where's my obviously flawed logic at?

Vince Young is from the spread, wanna quickly tell me the success rate of those QB's yea, that's also why thinking Thigpen is the answer is funnier than shit...just gloss over that though.

Matt Leinart is system limited he was drafted by Dennis Green to play in the WCO which he can do, when Whisenhunt took over and put in vertical passing Leinart couldn't play he doesn't have the arm, I don't see you mentioning that...

Boller was a 3rd round pick till he worked out and threw a ball 50 yards threw the uprights off his knees...He was the QB at Cal when Tedford got there and never had good numbers his career completion percentage was under 50...once again way to gloss over that.

Rex Grossman, a Florida Steve Spurrier QB what more can be said there?

Russell would be a top 5 pick basically in any year he entered the draft, sometimes they work out sometimes they don't but obviously being picked by the Raiders doesn't help.

And for your other comments saying Flacco from where he was from guess what, Flacco was the same thing Boller was a 3rd round pick that rose on workouts and arm strength those types of picks are extremely risky. Not to mention you have the questions of he transferred out because he couldn't be out Tyler Palko and playing where he did brings up the didn't face good competition question..

You're just glossing over a ton of stuff it's not simply big program small program.

my point is that the success of a QB is very much based on the quality of the offensive line. Heisman Trophy QB's don't have a high success rate because they basically have to have an amazing line to put up the numbers to win the trophy in the first place. Give me the guy that can win games, not put up ridiculous numbers. I want the guy who has experience with being pressured, having to move around in the pocket, not have playmakers that are far and away better than the defense they are facing. Give me the guy that has shown his toughness and ability to stand in the pocket, not the guy that put up big numbers at a football factory college.

I don't really see what the issue here is with the top 2 QB's this year they bring everything you can ask for.

I think Stafford is wayyy better than Sanchez. The SEC defenses are so tough, the guy has been tested.

Stafford earned the right to be drafted higher I said that before...but Sanchez is right behind him and has the potential to be just as good if not better, they are both better prospects than Sam Bradford is.

I hate this.. but the FACT is... OT is probably the best VALUE at #3... even though it is stupid for US... it is damn hard to argue that there is ANY player (other than an OT) that is a good value at #3... ok maybe Stafford... and Sanchez MAY be ok... if he bucks the trend of junior QB busts...

Still you shouldn't make a pick based on fear, what if you pass on Sanchez and he becomes a great player?

Then your franchise looks stupid.

Gil Brandt who worked for the Cowboys said Jimmy Johnson gave consideration to Tony Mandarich saying maybe he's the way to go maybe we should want to control the line and be physical.

And all the personnel people told him if you do that you're going to be thought of as the biggest laughing stock in the league.

And obviously they took Aikman.

We could have had Flacco last year. Do we look stupid for going with Branden Albert?

It's not fear, it's playing the odds.

Mandarich was a roid riddled goon.

Personally If I was the chiefs I would try to trade down as much as we could, get as many picks as possible and then take James Lauranitis cause he seems to me to be the best bet to be a perennial pro bowler. Then with all those other picks you can go crazy taking risks and filling as many holes as possible. There's surely some decent QB prospects to be had in later rounds.

Who are these mythical QB's you speak of?

we CANT trade down... end of story... the MOST we could trade down is MAYBE 3 spots... and that is astonomically unlikely....

We are pretty much stuck at #3... and as much as I hate to agree with Mecca... Sanchez is prolly our best bet... AT THIS POINT... ALOT will change over the next few months.. and we may see a DE or NT rise enough to be worth the #3.... I certainly hope that is the case , because right now, the only "safe" pick is OT and as "safe" as that is... it sets us back yet another year...

I'm Hoping someone wants Crabtree bad enough to trade up.

I still don't understand this QB fear, Sanchez is one of the best QB prospects you can ask for.

He's a better prospect than Sam Bradford who everyone here was creaming over.

James Lauranitis? Jeeeeeeeysus

Albert was as close to a lock as you can get, Flacco was a risk/reward FCS QB, and we were still waiting to see if Croyle could bring it. So no, we weren't stupid.

Now that we DO have a stud LT, one idea that may be good is to not draft ANOTHER ****ING LT at #3 overall.

But Big XII QBs

Who's going to be our RT this year? how about RG? Our Offensive line was still crap this year with Albert, the right side didn't do much. I'd rather we get a stud DT or DE...

Yeah - god knows you can only get a quality RT or RG with a top 5 pick. :rolleyes:

First off, the right tackle and right guard positions (along with center) can be adequately addressed in rounds 2-5. Easily.

Furthermore, there are no "stud" DT's or DE's in this year's draft. The last "stud" DT was Glen Dorsey and the Chiefs got him.

QB HAS to be the pick #3.

...and suppose Stafford and Sanchez go number one and two overall? It can't be QB or bust, a great GM has prepared for all scenarios.

St. Louis will not take a QB.

This OL talk is driving me crazy. You can get great OL later in the draft. Szott was a 7th round pick. Shields was a 3rd. The whole freaking Patriots, Colts line was not made of first rounders. Take the QB first. You have to pay any QB a big salary no matter what. FA or draft. Its a given. And if you think G or C is more important than QB then you are freaking reerun.

You still have to prepare for that scenario. A new head coach has no loyalty to their QB, regardless of price tag. Warner starting over Leinart ring any bells? Just sayin'.

I think it's all going to be irrelevant anyway, because I think Pioli wants Cassell.

No way does he trade for Cassell. I bet he doesnt he even sign away one Patriot starter.

Warner's a Hall of Famer in waiting and he's playing in an offense designed for him.

Leinart was drafted to play in the WCO.

How many times does this need to be repeated?

He was gushing over Cassell in the presser-he has first hand information about his skillset and might be willing to make a trade. I've also heard from some of my sources that we might consider going that route and using our top pick for defense, that's why I think Raji is the pick.

Considering there hasn't been one peep about a coaching hire, I seriously doubt your "sources" know a damn thing.

If Raji's the pick, I'm gonna ****ing puke all over my television.

:Lin:

I think the problem is that Chiefs fans have been watching then try to build the line with low round picks like Brett Williams (not that low, actually :mad:) and Jordan Black, so they think it can't be done that way.

What they aren't taking into account is that we no longer have a reerun running the draft board.

Warner being a HOFer is debateable-I don't think he's a lock.

Regarding your second comment...Again, he was still picked by a PREVIOUS REGIME and is a 1st round QB, who's riding the pine-I think that's further validates my point.

Yes, Dane because we have no head coach, the player personnel department just ceased to exist.ROFL

Well, BigRedChief has said his source doesn't know what's going on either due to how Pioli operates

After the Cards win on Sunday, Kurt Warner is a HOFer. Period.

As to Leinart, there's no point to validate because you didn't say anything.

You don't have a source inside the Chiefs front office. I don't buy that for a second. NO ONE knows what's going on. It's like the mafia over there.

And there is absolutely NO WAY that YOU know what Scott Pioli is thinking with the #3 overall pick.

I wouldn't say that about DTs or DEs... we simply don't know yet.

I could see BJ Raji continue to rise... (not saying I am sold on him)

You just never know at this point.

Hell, we could pick Crabtree.

most LIKELY it is QB (Sanchez) but lets not act like we know enough to write that in stone.

Having watched the Senior Bowl, the majority of the college bowls and the East-West Shrine Bowl, I'm pretty confident in claiming that there are no Terrell Suggs, Mario Williams, Julius Peppers type players that we know of in this draft.

There's probably a guy that will develop into something special but I don't think there's anyone ready to immediately contribute and add a minimum of 10 sacks. IF that guys exists, he's currently being overlooked.

Same for DT. Having seen Raji completely silenced in the Senior Bowl (despite the reports of strong practices) and the fact that he played in the Big East has me extremely skeptical of his abilities. Especially considering that Glen Dorsey was supposed to be the second coming of Warren Sapp (Yeah, yeah - I know Gunther sucked and Dorsey was playing out of position and blah, blah, blah).

I certainly don't see any immediate game-changing defensive lineman that are ready to contribute AND be a "stud" in game one.

IF the Chiefs choose that route, I hope I'm wrong.

The latest mock from www.walterfootball.com:

1. Sanchez, QB, USC
2. Michael Johnson, DE/OLB, Georgia Tech
3. Antoine Caldwell, C, Alabama

I could live with that.

But what if someone trades up in front of us with St. Louis? That could very well happen.

That team would need to give up their entire draft to do so.

I don't think that happens.

If the Seahawks decide it is time to look to the future for Hasselback, it would possibly only cost them their 2nd round pick to jump over the Chiefs.

Are two divisional rivals going to trade with each other?

Not only that...but it would cost them more than just their 2nd round pick to move up.

Yep.

800 points. Or the equivalent to the 21st pick in the draft.

Not happening.

UPDATED as of 02/10/09

3. Mark Sanchez, QB, USC

34. Connor Barwin, DE/OLB, Cincinnati
It'll be interesting to see whom the Chiefs hire as their defensive coordinator. Scott Pioli has always drafted for the 3-4, so there's a good chance he brings in a guy who can coach that scheme.

If Pioli makes that move, he'll be busy hunting for players who can fit that system this April. Why not begin with the flexible Connor Barwin, who had 15 TFL, 11 sacks, seven passes broken up and three blocked kicks in 2008? Those 11 sacks were more than the total amount the entire Kansas City squad had all year (10)!

67. Antoine Caldwell, C, Alabama

FWIW......

Kraig Urbik goes #65 to the Lions.
Eric Wood goes #96 to the Steelers.

If it were to go that way....then I would rather do this.

3. Mark Sanchez QB USC
34. Clint Sintim DE/OLB Virginia
67. Trade our 3rd round pick and 6th round pick to the Cardinals for the #63 pick and take Kraig Urbik G Wisconsin
98. Trade our 4th round pick and 7th round pick to the Titans for the #94 pick and their 7th round pick (#222) and take Eric Wood C Louisville

That would put our o-line at:

Albert/Waters/Wood/Niswanger/Urbik

If we somehow grabbed Brown in FA then we wouldn't need to grab Wood in the 4th round and we could go DE.

really don't want to see us trading picks if at all possible.. we need players

but who knows after FA if we can fill some holes

It is also several million dollars in savings for the Rams to move down 2 spots, and they could probably still get the guy they would want at #4, plus pick up a 2nd rounder as well. Could happen.

Today's update:

R1: Mark Sanchez
R2: Connor Barwin
R3: Antoine Caldwell


They are adding the 4th round tomorrow.

See post #229 :D

Shit, sorry dude.

You posted while I was in class, and I didn't get caught back up.

My bad.

It's no big deal....I'm having more fun reading the bullshit over at WPI.

UPDATED FEB. 11th WITH THE 4TH ROUND:

3. Mark Sanchez/QB/USC
34. Conner Barwin/DE-OLB/Cincinnati
67. Antoine Caldwell/C/Arkansas
98. Darry Beckwith/ILB/LSU

FWIW.....

I'd rather go with this:

3. Mark Sanchez/QB/USC
34. Clint Sintim/DE-OLB/Virginia
67. Trade #67 and #162 for the Cardinals #63. Take Kraig Urbik/G-T/Wisconsin
98. Andre Brown/RB/N.C. State

I think I'd go this route, if it fell exactly as the mock states:

R1: Sanchez

R2: Try to leapfrog Detroit for Cushing, or stand pat and take Paul Kruger.

R3: Caldwell

R4: Zack Follett (assuming you take Kruger in R2)


Just to throw a R5 guy in there....Daniel Holtzclaw.