I do love how you try to twist things around. Here, let's start simple....

List all the franchise QBs.

Hmmmm. You and I must have differing opinions on franchise QBs.
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True franchise QB's: Brady, Manning's, Roethlisberger.

Guys that were drafted to be a FQB who will eventually or could win a SB: Rivers, Cutler, Ryan, Rodgers, Flacco, Stafford, Sanchez.

Guys that are solid QB's, but I don't think are capable of leading a team to a championship: Brees, Romo, McNabb.

Guys that could be solid but I don't think are capable: Cassel, Quinn, Schaub.

The rest are either to old to be considered, are no good, or are excaping my memory at the moment.

So your assertion is that people were claiming that Cassel was going to develop into Brady or Manning, or at least Roethlisberger?

If that's the case, can you find me 10 posts or so by different people to verify that? I sure don't recall any such thing occurring on any large scale.

I'm on my phone, so that isn't possible at the moment.

However, I will tell you that there was a thread with a poll discussing it after the trade. Matter of fact, I think I started it and the question was "is Cassel capable of putting a team on his back and winning a championship" referencing the idea of a franchise QB.

But you keep conflating your arguments. There are only 2 franchise QBs in the NFL: Brady and Manning. Some people would argue that Roethlisberger belongs on the list, but that still only makes 3 total.

As far as putting teams on the back, I wouldn't put Manning among that group, and he's the second best QB in the NFL.

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have won Super Bowls. Surely you're not claiming that Cassel can't become another Dilfer/Johnson, right?

I'll type out a full response when I get home in an hour or so.

I've lost track. What was being argued here? Cassel vs. Thigpen, or Cassel being a franchise QB, or Cassel being half as good as Brady? (Which isn't exactly a news flash. But, then again, right NOW Cassel might be half as good. Who knows how it'll develop.)

The unknown seems to be how "for real" Cassel is and, to an extent, how "for real" Thigpen is. People can talk about how well Thigpen might've done in Cassel's place on New England last year, or how poorly Cassel would've done in Thigpen's place in KC, but unfortunately we don't have the gateway to the alternate universe to find those things out.

So, we have to go by what we know.

There are varying degrees of QB. On the bottom level you have the guys who are inconsistent, who throw a frozen rope on one play and an errant pass on another, or make a brilliant decision on one play and a boneheaded one on another. I'm looking at Byron Leftwich right now for Tampa, and he fits that bill.

The better a QB's decision-making and accuracy, the better the QB. Take Drew Bledsoe, for example. He could be very accurate and had a cannon, but his decision-making often wasn't the best, especially in later years. He'd lock on to his primary receiver and get tunnel vision, trying to force a pass into double-coverage instead of taking the more open pass to another guy. Or he'd take a bad sack from lack of pocket awareness, or heave the ball out of bounds too quickly.

The better a QB, the more they can make up for. A Tom Brady or a Peyton Manning on a bad team might elevate them; a Damon Huard might not. Conversely, an excellent team might make a decent QB look better than he would on a crap team. Same works in reverse (e.g. Brady making average receivers look good).

What it boils down to is this: what kind of consistency do you see from a QB? Are his passes more often than not accurate? Is his decision-making more often than not pretty good? Does he come through in clutch situations, or choke as the pressure mounts? By those criteria, from what I've seen of Cassel, he's definitely on the proper end of the spectrum. Thigpen? Maybe not so much, judging from his lack of accuracy and his declining QB rating at the end of games.

Thus, I think Cassel definitely has the potential to be a very solid starting QB. The kind of guy who can take a team places. (Hell, if guys like Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer can get SB rings, I think Cassel's good enough.) Sort of like a Chad Pennington. Thigpen? He might succeed as a starter, but I get the feeling he'd need more help around him than Cassel, and might be better suited to the Billy Volek role of a backup who can win you some games for a stretch if your starter is out.

A franchise QB, to me, is a guy who can singlehandedly keep his team in the game, always make his team a threat, a QB who is the undisputed leader of his team and is going to be there for a long time. Those are very few and far-between. Brady and Manning in this era, Marino and Aikman and Favre and Montana and Jim Kelly in earlier years, etc.,.

Brady and Manning > Cassel > Thigpen and Croyle (at least in their current versions).

Franchise QBs > guy who's got the potential to be a solid starter > guys who are probably better suited as backups.

Guys who can win games singlehandedly > guys who can make some great plays to help win games and elevate some players > guys who probably can't win games on their own or overcome a lack of talent around them.

Working backwards:

The odds aren't in his favor.

Second, I underestimated your ability to take past posts of mine and apply them to this conversation.

I would have worded my earlier statement better by saying that both Manning's, and Roethlisberger have PROVEN they deserve the franchise QB status. (I'm leaving Brady out of the conversation based on the fact that he was a needle in a haystack - let's talk about guys that were drafted or signed with the intention of being a franchise QB)

So, that leaves the following - guys that I consider franchise QB's based on their draft status, physical tools and intangibles - guys that were drafted with the expectation of being "the guy" for 10+ years and leading their team to a championship or more.

Rivers, Cutler, Ryan, Rodgers, Flacco, Stafford, Sanchez.

They just haven't proven it yet, but have many years to do so. They are all still young.

NcNabb was drafted to be a franchise QB, but as we've seen, can't win the big game. That drops him out of the conversation in my book.

Other than that, Quinn was the only other guy drafted with the intention of getting a franchise QB, and the jury is still out - though I think he'll be solid, but not capable of putting a tema on his back and winning a SB.

I'm not sure how anyone can look at the Cassel situation and say he was just brought in to be "a guy". This was the guy they wanted, and they passed up others to do so - not to mention paid him what they would have paid a franchise QB in the draft.

The rest of the guys I listed can stay as already described - none of them were drafted or signed thinking they would be a franchise QB, IMO.

wtf? he's pretty much done nothing but win, been to 5 NFC championship games, 5 pro bowls, holds numerous franchise passing records, and has been the face of his franchise for a decade. not a franchise QB? wtf?



your criteria for franchise QB is a little weird. essentially, they have to be a high draft pick and win a super bowl.



Roethlisberger's stats are average at best, but since he was drafted in the first round and his defense handed him 2 super bowls, he must be a HOFer. :rolleyes:

And he did it with no stand out receivers.Yeah he sucks.LMAO

Yeah, his defense handed him two rings.

I guess you missed the part where he accounted for all 74 yards on the final drive to win the ****ing game.

THAT'S what franchise QB's do.

And NcNabb has choked in almost every big game he's had. Being clutch in the biggest games is pretty ****ing important, wouldn't you say?

If you want to create a category for "franchise QB's that shit the bed when it matters most", then go right ahead.

agree

Mcnabb turned out to be by far the best in his class.
Don't understand the hate for mcnabb.

I don't agree on Ben, but let's concede it to give him a spot.

This makes no sense, particularly when you include Flacco. Eli isn't on your list here even though he's won a Super Bowl, but a #18 pick that some thought would go in the second round is?

McNabb's got a better playoff record than Manning and has brought his team to the Super Bowl, and to the NFCCG multiple times. He's clearly won big games. Your assertion here makes no sense, in my opinion. The only year Manning won the Super Bowl, he was getting crushed by the Patriots until they turned into a M*A*S*H unit, and he was then able to take advantage of that, along with lousy officiating, and got to face the Bears in the Super Bowl. Hell, he was being talked of as being the greatest choker in history before he got that win.

All QBs are drafted with the intention of getting a franchise QB. Quinn fell because so many teams doubted he'd ever become one.

There's a difference between "a guy" and "a true franchise player", but there are also other layers of quarterbacks, just as you yourself have delineated. Again, nobody that I've seen expects Cassel to become Brady or Manning. Then again, nobody with a brain will expect that of any quarterback, given that they are 2 of the best to ever play the game (for Manning, this is true at least during the regular season, if not in the playoffs).

Don't hate him, he just didn't live up to the #2 overall selection, IMO. Especially when he had MULTIPLE chances, and failed each time.

People say that Roethlisberger was handed rings by his defense, what the **** happened in Philly then?

And being the best in a class of Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Daunte Culpepper, Cade McNown, Shawn King,Brock Huard, Joe Germaine, Aaron Brooks, Kevin Daft, Michael Bishop, Chris Greisen and Scott Covington isn't exactly high praise...

I saw that drive, but I also saw all the other games Roth played where he didn't do shit except hand the ball off. He has played his entire career with a great front office, great receivers, great running game, and great defense.


As for McNabb, all playoff games are "big games" and he has won plenty of them. Without a runninng game or receivers.


But I guess all that is pretty easy to forget when you pay too much attention to ESPN.

That's the second time you've apparently missed me saying BOTH MANNING'S.

CP, where Roethlisberger is average.

in his defense, he said "Manning's".

It was intended to be pural, but ended up possessive, so I can see the confusion.

Name all the QB's in league history to win multiple Super Bowls.

Yeah, it's just as easy as you claim, numbnuts.

:spock:

No. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to put both Mannings in the franchise section and to not have Eli with the second tier. Really, I'm trying to be polite about this, but calling Eli a franchise level player is just about as ****ing stupid as it gets.

take away the super bowls and where do his stats rank?

Dude.

He was drafted with the expectation that comes with a franchise QB.

He plays in the most demanding media market in the NFL.

When his team needed him most, he went on the best 5-6 game run of his career, carrying that team through the playoffs and into the Super Bowl.

Then he leads his team on a last-minute drive against a 16-0 team that had been destroying the opposition for 4 months to win the Lombardi Trophy.

The Giants traded multiple picks hoping expecting that Eli would be that guy, and he didn't disappoint.

Trent Dilfer says "hello".

This is the root of my issue with you on this stuff. You're completely inconsistent.

Wait..... was Dilfer a 'Franchise' level QB?

:clap:

Who gives a ****?

He has 10 years left to play.

Christ, this fanbase is ****ed. You'd rather have the 4,000 yard passer who can't win a playoff game than the guy who threw for 3,000 and has multiple rings.

I could care less what the stat line says.

Based on this argument, Trent Green was a franchise QB.

Roethlisberger and Rivers are clearly the two elite young QBs in the game.

Thats like saying Marino sucked because he didn't win a SB.

super bowls are about a TEAM, not a QB. Are you saying Marino, Tarkenton, Archie Manning, Dan Fouts, and Jim Kelly weren't "franchise QBs" because they never had enough talent around them to win a SB?


the first Steelers SB should belong to the Seahawks. That game was a travesty and, unlike most people, I won't forget that.

That's one thing that pises me off about the "SB is everything" attitude - it doesn't matter how you got it, all you have to do is be carried to one, people forget the circumstances, and you are in the Hall.

the only reason he wasn't was because of his age. are you saying that if he put up 2003-2005 numbers when he was in his mid-20s, he wouldn't be considered a future HOFer?

and what kept Trent out of the SB? the Defense.

he must have been. he was a high draft pick and won a SB. :rolleyes:

And a guy with ONE regular season win to his name is a God.

Wow, talk about disingenous.

Did Trent Dilfer play to the level expected of a franchise QB his entire career?

Or did he fall ass-backwards into the perfect spot, with the perfect team?

Had Peyton Manning played like Neil Lomax for 8 seasons, and then won a SB, we wouldn't be calling him a franchise QB either.

First of all, I entered the conversation when it came to McNabb, who has won numerous playoff games.

Secondly, I look at more than simply "rings", because as I said, rings are about a team, not a single player. I'm fairly certain that if E Manning or P Rivers went to Pittsburgh instead of Roth, they would have those rings instead

ROFL

how ironic

How idiotic.

I'm still waiting on that list of multiple SB winning QB's.

I mean, Roethlisberger "fell into" 2 championships in 4 years, the list must be a mile long if it's that easy.

Eli surely hasn't played to the level expected of a franchise QB his entire career, and that was the Manning I was referring to.

55.9% completions
76.1 passer rating.


Dilfer:
55.5% completions
70.2 passer rating

Brad Johnson:
61.7% completions
82.5 passer rating


3 players with 1 Super Bowl win each. So, if Eli is a 'Franchise' QB, how is it that Johnson and Dilfer weren't?

I guess you aren't getting the point. Roth was fortunate enough to be on a great TEAM.

kinda like...Trent Dilfer, eh?

Nice avy! :D

That fact that you made it THIS far in the thread before exploding just boggles my ****ing mind.
Rep to you Sir.

Feel free to compare the guy who's played 4 years, with his entire career ahead of him, with two guys that combined for close to 30 seasons...

I will, just as you're comparing Cassel, a guy with one season playing, to players with a lot more years as starters under their belts.

He didn't start playing football until 2003?

I'd say '97-'02 and '06-'08 had a lot to do with him not being a franchise QB. And the HOF question is a ridiculous leap. If player X had only played at an incredibly high level for his entire career, wouldn't he be a HOFer?

Of course, and if frogs had wings...

You know why?

All I've been told for the past 3 months is how important his experience is, and how sitting for years behind Brady makes him a can't miss veteran - how it made so much more sense to get him instead of drafting a young QB.

"Cassel can handle it, we'd ruin a young QB."

So the people are getting what they asked for.

He's the expert at ridiculous leaps...

According to him, all we needed was a defense and Trent would have won the SB for us.

Talk about putting the ****ing cart before the horse, as the franchise hadn't won a playoff game in over a decade...

I guess it depends on when you ask the question "is he a franchise QB?" Is it when his career is over, at the peak of his career, or after a few seasons? We seem to be comparing apples to oranges - everyone is being judged at different points in their career and by different standards.

Who kows what TGreen would have been if circumstances were different. Riding the bench for so long, being on shitty teams, the STL injury in 99, getting decapitated...twice.

The "what-if" question abounds - Terrell Davis and Priest Holmes are just the tip of the iceberg. Reggie White may only be the greatest defensive player ever because he went to GB and got a ring. Dan Marino is discounted because he never got one.

You've been completely inconsistent with your arguments, all the while cherry picking comments from a few individuals rather than dealing with the general consensus about Cassel. Acting as if it's somehow others "getting what they asked for" is a steaming pile, nothing more.

Eli Manning is a franchise player according to you, but it's somehow unfair for others to point to Dilfer and Johnson in refuting that assertion because of career length? And you talk about the bullshit other posters have put down?

Was Marino a franchise QB?
Tarenton?
Fouts?
Jim Kelly?
Jay Schroeder?
Doug Williams?
Ken Stabler?

Do you have a full list of the NFL's franchise QBs since, say, 1970?

And the 3 months thing is just another load of bullshit. You've been blowing Sanchez and pounding on Cassel since before that 3 month period even started.

uh...we had the best offense and special teams in football. if we had a defense, what other conclusion would you come up with?

and no single player wins a SB, a team does. That's my whole point.

what does that have to do with anything? how many playoff games had Arizona won in the last decade, before they went to the SB last year?

To me, a franchise QB is one who is the cornerstone of his team. He plays at a very high level for a significant period of time, elevating the play of those who surround him.

Furthermore, he is able to put the team on his shoulders and win a game, and he's able to do this on the biggest stage.

Based on the above, it's pretty easy to see the distinction between a Dilfer and a Roethlisberger. A Marino and a Green.

None of that shit matters because he's a former Patriot. A product the Great Piolichick. A God among men from New England.

New England; where micro-brews flow through the rivers and streams so fresh and clean, you can dip your bottle in and taste Ambrosia. Where the sewers smell like a Lilly patch, and the turds transform in to chocolate bars as the piss becomes lemonade!
Where $100.00 bills grow from every chloroform-based vegetation as Prime Rib is hand delivered to your front door by Playboy Bunnies!
And where the Greatest Quarterbacks you'll ever be lucky enough to have pawned-off on you, you worthless, ****ing non-New England-ite, shall NEVER be questioned, only Praised and Worshiped.

You infidel.

HOLY SHIT!LMAOLMAO

Let me ask you this - who would you rather have as your RB, if you could draft either one to an expansion team - Barry Sanders or Emmitt Smith?

You'd think that.

I'm done.

its still apples and oranges IMO - Roth has only been playing for, what, 4 years? All the other QBs have had an entire career of ups and down to judge by.

And Roth is being judged PURELY on the rings, nothing else. "He has rings", "He led them on that one drive in the SB". (Nevermind the dominant team that carried him into that position)

Hey, I put Kurt Warner in the category of "surrounded by talent, nothing special", before he did what he did in Arizona last year.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2gwgp4j.jpg


If that doesn't explain what a ****ing reerun you are, nothing will.

The guy was only a SBMVP before getting to Arizona...

So anyone could have done it? Roethlisberger was carried?

Smoke more crack

Emmitt Smith, hands down.

So Rothlisberger (sp?) wins 15 games as a rookie and Thigpen wins 1. Yet Rothlisberger sucks and Thigpen is good?

He's a Beaker; it's all about the "Honk For Hemp" with those ****ing hippies.

http://woots.homestead.com/HonkForHemp.jpg

Welcome to Chiefs Nation!

Dude, you're exaggerating. Few people on CP that I've seen of say he's a "can't miss veteran." Most people like him and like his potential, but know that he's got a lot to prove. But is he further along in his progression than Sanchez? How can you claim otherwise? You know he has everything between the ears and that's a huge advantage over a guy like Sanchez or Stafford, who you have no idea what to expect. Who knows if they'll have the work ethic to get better when you throw gobs of money and publicity in their direction.

No, the point is that if you can't see that Super Bowls are generally run with balanced teams, then there is something wrong with you. I think Big Ben is one of the best QBs in the NFL. But there is NO WAY he could carry the 2003 Chiefs to the Super Bowl. How many playoff games could Big Ben win where the defense doesn't force A SINGLE PUNT?

Big Ben has had a top 5 defense almost every year he's played. That includes a top 5 defense in scoring as well as forcing turnovers. How can you be so blind to realize that a top 5 defense makes a QB's job 100 times easier?

To answer your question, of course I'd rather have a 3,000 yard passer because that implies that you have a dominant defense that allows you to win games. But stop pretending that Big Ben can win on a 3,000 yard season on a bottom 5 defense. For christ sake, his defense gave up 13.9 points per game. That's 2 TDs less per game than the Chiefs gave up. Do you realize that in 2003, there wasn't one single game where the Chiefs scored less than 13.9 points?

"I'm Chiefzilla, and I want assurances".


I know exactly what to expect:

Cassel will look epic this year compared to so many floundering Chiefs QB's-past, while Sanchez looks less polished and struggles.

Here's the bummer; Sanchez matches or surpasses Cassel's numbers while appearing to struggle. You see, Cassel's going to have to hop and skip down to the end zone while Sanchez, when faced with 3rd down conversions of the long nature, is going to do EXACTLY the kind of shit you saw with the 50-yard bomb and the precisely placed long-yarder to Washington against the Ravens.

Oh, other bummer:

Two years from now when Cassel is still hopping and skipping, Sanchez has polished his long game to a science while making those short passes in tight coverage look like child's play.

Question asked, question answered. On with the show.

Here's another scenario. As most scouts predicted, Sanchez was underprepared for the NFL. Like most first-year rookie QBs thrown immediately into the starting position, he struggles as he learns to read complex blitz packages (which he has not yet seen in the preseason).

After the third game, the boo birds come out. And in New York, it's not just the fans, it's the media, the national TV coverage, everything. His face is plastered on every NY newspaper and he's surrounded by cameras that insult him for not being a star right away. How do you respond to that? In Leaf's case, you get angry and you stop listening to your coaches. In Harrington's case, your confidence gets rattled and you never recover. Or in Matt Leinart's case, you start living off your unearned money and don't commit to the game as you should. Or in Jamarcus Russel's case, you learn that the work ethic was never there. Or in Leftwich and Alex Smith's case, you learn that their skills don't translate on the NFL level.

These are things that New York will learn in a hurry about their QB.

Yeah, the New York fans can be impulsive and irrational, but their entire football community is not defined by the loud-mouthed goons who go to Radio City every year.
The Jets fans by and large know what they've got. And similar to KC fans, they now understand that quick fixes like Favre aren't going to get it done. Ryan's running a different kind of show with the media up there; he's invited them in. He's had the main movers and shakers of the local press come in and watch film with him as he explains what happened, why it happened, and if it's bad; what he'll do to make it right.

They're going through as big a transition as we are, and the old-timers who've led the call for heads to roll are now willing to hear the franchise out and exercise some patience.

It's still a tougher media and fan base than most markets, even if they've wisened up. You don't need a loud market to be surrounded by pressure. Harrington and Leaf played in very forgiving markets, but just buckled under pressure. Lots of QBs have done that, in fact. The point being that there are going to be a lot of mental challenges. I'm not saying Sanchez won't get through it, but it's just something you'll never know about the kid until he hits the national stage.

Why are you posting this on a message board when not one person has anything to do with keeping him..

Its up to Pioli and Haley, they can see that if the dude blows or not...

All you little thiglettes are going to be crushed with our new GM and HC when they keep taking out Herms trash....

what the **** does draft status have to do with being a franchise QB? that is just a stupid thing to say

has eli manning played at a franchise level his WHOLE career?

oh, you mean the kurt warner that became a journeyman backup for a few years after his run in STL ended?

and even when he was in STL, who were his offensive teammates? Faulk, Holt, Bruce, Pace - most likely all hall of famers, or close.



(but warner can't be a "franchise guy" anyway, since he wasn't drafted high enough to fit your criteria)

we will have to agree to disagree.

unless I can take the 90's Cowboys offensive line along with Emmitt, I'm taking Barry Sanders, hands down.

calm down there, bro. its just a discussion of opinions. take a deep breath or two before you have an aneurysm.

Are you done being a dick?

Here's the other viewpoint.

Cassel has spent the past few seasons under one of the best HCs ever to be in the NFL, and has studied one of the best QBs ever to be in the NFL.

You don't think he's learned a thing or two from that?

You don't think that experience might count for something?

Or how about the fact that Pioli, who was also a partner in crime with that duo, picked Cassel, knows Cassel, and knows how to best help Cassel?

Some of you are sticking it up Cassel's ass before he's even thrown a pass in the NFL for you. Jesus H. on a f**king raft.

What's Sanchez's pedigree? He's a 22-year old who played for three seasons at USC (the college equivalent to New England, BTW... so let's talk about how much help Sanchez, like Cassel, had in looking good) and came out early. According to Wikipedia, that great fountain of knowledge, the last USC QB to come out early was Todd Marinovich. How'd that work out?

That was my response to the convoluted, up-down all-around the bend "logic" of Just Peddling Malarkey throughout the debate in this thread.
Back-pedal and goal-post move-age be his name.

2008 86.4
2007 73.9
2006 77.0
2005 75.9
2004 55.4

NEWS FLASH:

There is NO ****ING CASE FOR TYLER THIGPEN.

HE SUCKS.

I didn't see the game (I am in Korea) but one bad game does not a football player make. Even if Thigpen was putrid, wasn't he in with the 2nd unit?

Its water under the bridge now, but paying $60 mil for a guy who threw 21 TDs in the same exact offense that Brady rang up 50 with isn't my idea of personnel genius. Thigpen's 22 scores last year were not a fluke, and he did it in 3/4s of a season with a 2-14 team.

If Cassel goes down and Thigpen is in Jax, KC will be in the same exact spot they were in last year (unless Brodie can stay healthy) when the #3 QB had to finish the season. At least Thigpen has experience with Gailey's O.

I don't like Haley, and I never thought the 9-7 Cards were the team to emulate.

I'm putting this mother****ing thread on ignore RIGHT NOW.