Guys, I must apologize.

I met KCbubb at the Chiefs Chargers game in SD last year, and told him about CP.

I had no idea he was a Herm homer and complete dillweed.

I guess the first rule of ChiefsPlanet is: you never talk about ChiefsPlanet.

At this rate it will only take them two seasons....



:clap:

Richard Seymour was never an impact player?

Aaron Smith a few years ago wasn't an impact player?

Wayne Martin of the Saints dome patrol linebackers fame, he wasn't an impact player????

Forgotten more than you will know.

it would be nice, but it is just a dream, we are stuck with failoli and failey

A lot of planet members have a warped view of what an impact player is. Unless you put up certain stats, you aren't an impact player to some people.

Nice limited vision there. I predicted 3 wins, therefore I shouldn't criticize the team for anything since we might not even get 3 wins? That's quite the ignorant mindset. I don't care about how many wins we get this year. A team in this position shouldn't be judged solely on W-L record prediction. There are many more factors that you are foolishly ignoring. I care about improvement, player evaluation, and overall team direction. In those regards, I have plenty to criticize.

You may be content with simply equating W-L prediction with overall team progress, but some fans actually look at more than that when evaluating the team. I'll continue to hold the GM to what he says. You can continue to bend over and be patient. I'm done with that.

Admittedly, I have been dissapointed with the Chiefs. I expected them to be better, and I expected better coaching decisions.

I think they were a better team last year with less talent.

But, I think this team is laying the foundation. I think that Haley believes in doing things a certain way and will stick to it regardless of losses.

In the end, if he is right, this will build a stronger team.

Part of building the right foundation is the mentality of the players.... which is why they are content to bring in players they know over other guys.

The other part of this, is that until you actually get on the field with a guy, you don't know what he is capable of. You can watch film, but you don't know for sure how he would do in your system, with what you ask a guy to do.

I think the Chiefs were wise to limit their free agency moves. The Chiefs weren't going to contend for anything anyways this year. So, get the talent on the field, see what they can do, define the problem, and then start to solve the problem.

Patience is a virtue. I am happy to see an organization more focused on building a true winner, rather than perpetuating mediocrity.

It is about time the Chiefs were built the right way. I like the overall approach, even if I dissagree with certain things about the way the head coach has handled games, and the way the GM has handled other things.

Time will tell, but the one thing that is certain, and encouraging, is that this regime is clearly looking to the future.

Since you say that, I have to ask. What do you think Pioli and Haley's approach is exactly? Please define for me, what Pioli and Haley are doing that you really approve of. Because I'm having a hard time seeing a pattern to their process.

What is it in general, that gives you the feeling they are clearly looking to the future? What are the positives that make you patient with what they're doing? Where are you seeing progress?

When surrounded by excellent talent, those three guys you mentioned played very well. But what I meant by "impact" is a guy who does something on their own - a game changer.

Tyson Jackson and the overwhelming majority of 3-4, 5-tech defensive ends are not the type of guys to put a team on their shoulders and lead them to victory.

IMO, the Chiefs needed the type of player at #3 overall that makes an impact on the game, not a guy who's primary job is to let other people make plays. Especially when the linebackers and safeties are not in place.

I've said this before and I'll say again: Tyson Jackson could turn out to be the greatest 5-tech player to ever play the game. But unless the Chiefs acquire outstanding linebackers and safeties, no one will even know or care.

And that for me makes it a wasted pick.

I think it's a general lack of knowledge about the 3-4 system that causes Jackson to get bashed here more than anything else. Is he productive or is he not will be a question we have to answer a couple of years down the road. But it's readily apparent that most people on this forum have no clue what a defensive end does in this system. Of course, it's not every critique that is like this, but so many seem to be simply rooted in "I didn't see him get a sack this week, he sucks"

That is a very fair question.

#1) Most see the willingness to bing in familiar players as a weakness. I see it as a strength. The Chiefs are a fragile team right now, and I think they have to make sure the guys they bring in, have the right attitude.

#2) Patience. They didn't come in and make a ton of changes right away. Some think that this is a weakness. I don't. I think they were smart to get the talent on the field before they decided what guys could actually do.

#3) Cutting talented players that didn't fit the organization. They cut Pollard and Boone. They are both guys that have talent and could have fit this system. This is frustrating on the surface. But, I think they were looking at more than just talent. They were looking at chemistry and accountability.

#4) Lack of panic. Cassel has struggled. It would be easy for the Chiefs to start Brodie to try to get a 'spark'. Or for them to draw up more gimmick plays like the Chiefs did last year. It would be easy to cave in and give DJ his starting job back.

I just see a steady hand guiding the organization.

Now, I have been critical of Haley and if Haley loses the team, then he should be fire when that happens.

But, until then, I think he should be given three years to build the team.

If he turns out to be the best 5-tech ever, the Chiefs won't need outstanding linebackers.

So long as he is productive, and a legit starter, it isn't a wasted pick.

I don't buy that at all.

I just that think that the people you're describing would have rather seen the #3 overall pick used on a player like Moreno, Crabtree, Harvin, Maclin or even Oher.

Quantifiable results. Not this "well, if YOU knew what they were supposed to do" garbage.

[QUOTE=SensibleChiefsfan;6227101]

#1) Most see the willingness to bing in familiar players as a weakness. I see it as a strength. The Chiefs are a fragile team right now, and I think they have to make sure the guys they bring in, have the right attitude.

[QUOTE]

Doesn't LJ undermine this argument, the thought that the "right 53" is more than empty rhetoric?

Oops. I ****ed up the quotation.

I'm blown away that this thread has so many responses. I guess i'll have to read some of it, but to answer the ??, No. Duh. No. Absofuqinlutely not. It will NEVER happen, but I'm sure plenty have already told you the answer to such an easy ??.

Bullshit.

If the Chiefs don't acquire a Jon Abraham/Joey Porter/James Harrison type of pass rushing machine, Tyson Jackson's selection is even worse.

The linebackers in the 3-4 are THE playmakers. If there are no playmakers behind Jackson, guess what happens?

Oh yeah, I think we already know because we see it each and every week.

People really would have wanted this team to pick a RB at #3?

Those people are morans.

A 34 DE who ties up two OL and maybe helps contain the QB and push in the pocket enabling the OLB to get to the QB isn't a playmaker? Only the guy who actually gets the sack is the playmaker?

God we need a pass rusher. I think TJ, and maybe even Dorsey, are going to make some decent pass rushers look pretty good.

[QUOTE=DeezNutz;6227138][QUOTE=SensibleChiefsfan;6227101]

#1) Most see the willingness to bing in familiar players as a weakness. I see it as a strength. The Chiefs are a fragile team right now, and I think they have to make sure the guys they bring in, have the right attitude.

Remember, LJ said and did all the right things for all of offseason and the beginning of the regular season.

LJ worked hard, dropped weight and was a class citizen by all accounts.

Now, they are in a bad spot. If they cut him, they tell the team that if they want out, they just have to act up.

They are going to keep him on and make him live with the mess he made. No easy out.

Haley told everyone at the beginning that they were starting with a clean slate. He kept his word. That is how LJ was still here.

It would be different if they brought in guys that had problems like this. I think then, you could say my argument was invalid.

LJ was an prexisting condition that they are doing their best to work with.

Yeah, why don't you look at where the Steelers typically draft their outstanding pass rushing linebackers. Hmmm. And, why don't you look at how those same linebackers typically do when they leave there. Hmmm.

It is a team effort. And, I will give Jackson a little bit of slack for not being dominant seven games into his career.

Now, for the record, Jackson was not my favorite pick. But, to say regardless of how good he is... it is a wasted pick... is moronic.

While I agree with this, dont you realize that you have to build the foundation first? Good teams do.

If TJ does his job, our rush defense will be much improved for years to come and the rushbacker we hand select to play behind him will excell.

The dline is every bit as important to the defense as the oline is to the offense. Without it the talent cant do its thing.

Its WAAAAAAY to early to be calling it a wasted pick.

Nobody we chose was gonna come in and turn this thing around single-handedly.

I see what you're saying. Although I do see #1,2 as a weakness. I felt that this team desperately needed the chainsaw approach to team building. Most of these young players got game action last season thanks to the youth movement, so we knew what we had with most of them. The weaknesses on the team were obvious to most folks. I think those weaknesses needed bombed and rebuilt, and patience had no value there.

#3 I understand, but I just think they've done a piss poor job of it.

#4 is a good point.

Correct. If we had chosen a playmaking pass rusher he probably would be getting double teamed every play because we didn't have any 5 tech DEs worth a shit.

exactly

and I also think it is pretty foolish to say its a wasted pick to select a guy that can neutralize two olinemen....that is like having 12 men on defense!

Guys like Tyson can do that and let average pass rushers look great.


Im DEFINATLY saying I dont agree fully with the move to the 3-4 in the first place, but change of massive proportions were needed to get the taste of 6 wins out of 32 games out of our mouth.

:shake:

No, I DO BELIEVE that it's necessary to build a "foundation". If that's the case, why did Pioli virtually IGNORE the worst offensive line in the league?

The Chiefs had a bevy of 4-3 defensive lineman that were entering the second and third years. They were MUCH closer with a 4-3 defense than a 3-4. PIOLI chose to dump those players in favor a 3-4, not to just "build" a foundation.

The "foundation" was already there! They should have stayed with the 4-3, added Rey Maualuga, drafted a pass rushing DE late and focused on the offense.

The move for Jackson had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with building a mythical "foundation" and EVERYTHING to do with his stubborness to continue with a 4-3.

And furthermore, if the Chiefs DON'T acquire at least two pass rushing OLB AND a nose tackle, this scheme is ****ed.

Really? So, those guys weren't available in free agency? You're telling us that is was ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to take Tyson Jackson at #3 overall?

JFC.

:shake:

No, it's not.

And what the **** are you talking about when referring to the Steelers linebackers? That they majority were drafted in the second round? Duh.

The Steelers drafted a 5 tech this year. At number 32 overall. THAT'S where you draft a 5-tech.

Not at #3.

All 32 teams improve every year and also win the Super Bowl, didn't you get the memo?

Pioli's been here less than a year and some act like, all he needed was to wave his magic wand and the team would instantly be upgraded. For the umpteenth time, Pioli DID NOT IGNORE the O-LINE! He added Goff, Ndukwe, Alleman, O'Callaghan, and the kid from Mizzou. THAT'S FIVE new o-line players on the roster. That argument is officially debunked and no longer acceptable in my book.

What sense does it make to hire a man then expect him to continue with a program that is not his? and furthermore a program that was very clearly not working?

Just because YOU have no belief in starting over when YOU felt we were close, means zilch to the man in charge.

:shake:

That's equivalent to Firemen bring a squirt gun to a burning building and saying "See! We tried, but it burned down. Ahh shucks, we'll get the next one."

That's not acceptable to me. None of those 5 you listed would likely start for any other team in the league. That's not improvement.

I agree 100% with the bolded part, it was very very puzzling. I wont even try to justify it because I would be 100% wrong. You'd have to ask the guy who played a huge part in building the roster of a team with three superbowl trophies and four appearances in ten years along with the executive of the year award, Im sure he made mistakes along the way.

I also believe we were closer than perception of getting to the point of fielding a decent 4-3, but we were horrible at it for 10 years and drastic change was needed. Do I agree with jettisoning the talent we had in place to change schemes, no.

Hali is as good a pass rusher as most of the olbs NE had playing behind Ty and Dick. That leaves one, and if we decide to draft a good one, he will have a chance at excelling now BECAUSE WE HAVE A GOOD 5TEC!

There is no doubt we need a dominant NT for this thing to work, the writing is on the wall and has been since the day we decided to make the switch.

This HAS to be a joke.

A 33 year old guard who can't play any more.

Two players that Miami were going to cut for their FIRST cutdowns, not their second. An offensive tackle who didn't even have a profile on NFL.com! He sucked at tackle and was moved to guard.

And O'C was acquired on waivers AFTER the start of the season.

You're telling us that he adequately address the WORST offensive line in the league? The SAME line that put two QB's on IR the previous year?

Huh?

So, it wasn't working, eh?

You mean after two years, Tank & Turk & Dorsey (after one) were supposed to be Pro Bowlers?

Yet all I hear from Piolisuckers is that you have to "give it time"?

What a load of horseshit.

Then go **** yourself and find another football forum to suck "the man in charge's" cock.

Hali IS NOT special. I'm really ****ing sick of people proclaiming him to be ANYTHING other than average at best. I know this will bring out the wrath of TheGuardian and Senseless****ingChiefsFan, but the bottom line is that the guy is NOTHING special.

And you're missing the part about NE having a monster secondary. While their outside linebackers weren't beasts on the scale of Abraham, Porter or Harrison, they were very solid, consistent players.

The Chiefs need to fill ALL four linebacking spots, both safety spots AND their NT position to even begin to be compared to the Patriots defense.

And even then, the Patriots weren't in the same league as other 3-4 defenses such as Baltimore or Pittsburgh. That's another level entirely.

...dont let facts cloud Mr McClouds arguement!

He seems to not realize we broke the nfl record for dline futility last year.

no sacks (nfl record low 10)
horrible rush defense (our safeties were our top and third leading tacklers)




LOL

"The foundation was already in place"

You crack me up Dane!

You're a ****ing moron. Seriously.

Tank & Turk are playing elsewhere in the NFL. Dorsey's again playing out of position. The cornerbacks are solid. Pollard was solid (and is solid in Texas).

The Chiefs needed a monster linebacker like Maualuga, another OLB and a pass rushing RDE. They weren't far away from being a solid unit, Assface.

Now, they need FOUR linebackers, TWO safeties and Nose Tackle.

That should only take three or four years.

Dummy.

It's not going to bring out my "wrath". All I've ever said about the guy is that he's a solid player. We don't need to be looking to replace Hali if that is what you are getting at. We have a lot of problems, he's not one of them.

LMAO BURN!

No they're not. Those guys were fired months ago.

Well, that, I agree with.

He's the only member of the linebacking corp that doesn't need to be immediately replaced. I'd imagine that he'll be on the squad for at least 2 more years as a starter, if not three.

I never said he was more than average. Never have, he isnt. He isnt bad enough that he is any kind of priority to replace either.

Just more of you putting words in someones mouth to feel important.

One of our safeties will stick, and not necessarily either starter, but we could definitely use a star, playmaking safety to help the weak link that has been the chink in the armour of the secondary so far.

IMO we need three lbers (one being a star pass rusher), one safety (playmaking variety) and a dominant nose to have a chance at consistently hold teams to 20 or less week in and week out.

This is another horseshit statement that you failed to address.

Oh, **** off.

Is this English? Is English your first language or second? Because I don't even know what you're attempting to state.

Yay! So the Chiefs only THREE playmakers: An OLB, a safety and a MONSTER nose tackle to hold a team UNDER 20.

Yeah, those guys grow on trees and are available each and every year.

:shake:

this is just classic

From what you saw last year, you think we only needed 2 linebackers and a end? Really???

and you are the one with "rainbows and unicorns" in your sig and then you post this kinda stuff.

Keep going its great!!

ROFL

Two players from Miami who said to the press, "what did they get for us; some chewing gum and toenail clippings"?
Two players who belittled their own trade value!LMAO

PIOLI!:thumb:

we were talking about the draft and udfas along with first cuts at the time.

take it out of context though, be my guest

You're a ****ing idiot. Seriously. If the Chiefs had kept Jared Allen, do you really think they'd have performed so poorly last year?

I really don't think you know a ****ing thing about the NFL.

Ah. Next time try "they were" instead of "they are".:D

let me help you:

I think out of McGraw/Morgan/Page one of them will stick as a starter for a few years here.

There ya go, its in crayon so it makes it easier for you! Is that better?

Why do you think that?

So, now you want to move the goalposts to make yourself feel better and put more words in my mouth?

I hated the Jared Allen trade, that doesn't mean Pioli should have kept rolling with the ****ing 4-3 after he was gone does it, idiot?

JFC <---------see how I did that?

Just quit while your behind!

you want the answer in ink or crayon?

In response to the OP........NO. Never going to happen.

Where's that link for the statement you keep making about the Packers offering 2 1st round picks for Larry Johnson? You can post it in your favorite lipstick for all I care.

Pollard was solid? Now we have people defending Pollard and arguing KC should have stuck with him? Where was this support 2 months ago?

rushbacker lol

I already answered you, I had it bookmarked on my old computer and couldn't find it again, only one saying they offered a 1 and 4, I retracted the statement because I couldn't prove it. I love how a statement I made once now has turned into "keep making" though...

I would have traded him for just a 1 at the time, I would link my posts from back then to show that was my stance, but it was before my time here and the CC crashed and had to restart everything a year and a half ago.

Boy would that 1 would look good right now (assuming we wouldnt have just wasted the pick anyway)!

somewhat witty, huh!

Hey, you won't find me in the camp that wanted to replace Pollard NOW.

Down the line, sure. That would hopefully be DaJuan Morgan. But the Chiefs had MUCH greater needs on defense than replacing Pollard.

And they sure didn't need to go backwards, which is exactly what they have done.

not on this board.

I defended Pollard in the preseason when he wasnt playing well and I got three neg reps for my effort, I decided not to pursue that further.

I posted the link to the Texans site where I started an account and asked them how Pollard was doing and all the "supporters" came out of the woodwork.

No, it's really reeruned. You say it all the time and I make fun of it all the time. There is no such position as "rushbacker"
All of your arguments are terrible and you consistently make yourself look like a moran.

Go away.

The rolb in a 3-4 is basically the same as a rde in a 4-3 with a few more responsibilities, rushing the passer is the main responsibility as well as setting the edge in stopping the run. Hence my use of rushbacker in place of rolb.

your welcome!

now **** off!

Look I know you had some grand idea that it would catch on and everyone would be saying rushbacker and you would feel really cool. But it's not happening and again you just look sad and reeruned like every single argument I have seen you make in this thread.

He makes all kinds of silly arguments that don't stick.

I have no idea how the guy has any green.

Um, what about dropping into coverage? That's a pretty HUGE responsibility.

MOST 4-3 defensive ends have extremely difficulty making that transition because of that particular responsibility.

Man, you truly are clueless.

You can go back and look... I never bashed the guy. I think both he and McBride will have solid careers, but I don't think McBride fit here.

I also think that Boone has another couple years or productivity.

you must have missed my "among other responsibilities" part of the post you quoted..

was it the ink? Sorry, Ill try to remember to buy more crayons next time Im at the store just for you snookums.

are you saying Hali has been poor at dropping back in coverage?

I remember him not "taking the cheese" against Rivers and the running back. By "taking the cheese" I meant come off his coverage responsibility to go for the qb, allowing an easy dump for a medium gain....but other than that I havent really paid too much attention to it so, he may be bad at it.

neg rep me all you want boss chief you are still a moran

I only returned the favor!

moran

What round was James Harrison drafted in?

he played at kent state though c'mon
and he was cut like 4 times by the steelers
and went to nfl europe
and got cut there

So you're implying that every undrafted free agent linebacker becomes a franchise player and Pro Bowler?

You really are a ****ing idiot.

No, moron.

I am saying that pass rushing OLB's are easier to find than good pass rushing DE's. That is why many teams go to it.

And, with a good front three, you don't have to have total studs at the linebacking level.

If you look at the Steelers, they don't have many great linebackers taken in the first round. Actually, if you look historically at 3-4 defenses, the linebackers aren't typically taken at the top of the draft.

But, don't let the facts get in the way of your moronic argument about how Jackson could be the best 5 tech ever and still be a wasted pick.

I didn't even like the pick that much, and still realize that is about as obtuse as you can be, and proves how little you really know about the game.

The point is that teams typically find good OLB's in a 3-4 easier than good DE's in a 4-3. The point is that with a good front three, you don't have to have 'outstanding' OLB's as Dane thinks.

Really, ****o?

Actually, the opposite is true: Most teams, including the NE Patriots, are moving away from the 3-4 and to the 4-3.

You're a ****ing dickless moron.

You're a ****ing idiot of EPIC proportions.

Why don't you go ahead and tell us exactly how many teams in the NFL are currently running the 3-4.

****ing JACKASS.

Dane sure has a way of making friends on here. :)
Posted via Mobile Device

They may be, ever think that may have something to do with Pioli moving on?