The time has come. There has to be something BEYOND full reerun to describe Hootie.

I submit, 'Hootie's gone plaidtard.'

Who doesn't play prevent these days?

He made the plays he had to get them into position to win.

Any argument to suggest he didn't perform in the clutch is just hot air.

at least milkman is intelligent...

I don't have any idea who you are and I certainly have zero interest in anything you have to say...

Until you learn how to type like an adult...I'll continue to show zero interest in any point you try to make.

No, he only delivered once, against the Patriots in that SB run.

That's it.

I enjoy your commentary but lets face the facts...

At least I back up my stance on subjects...

At least I don't dedicate posts like the one you just made to push my agenda...

Have you said ANYTHING intelligent in this entire thread?

I think your stance is this...

"Brady is clutch, Peyton Manning chokes."

Yet you provide no insight to your opinion...

Wow...thanks for your contributions!

wait, steve bono was more talented than steve young? your edit made NO sense there.

so he wasn't any good against the Chiefs in 2003? The Broncos in 2003?

The Broncos in 2004?

Those are a few examples...

Yet I guess we can just overlook those because he lost to superior Patriots teams who were cheating over those years...

No big deal, right?

K

and until you use your brain before posting stupid shit to defend your man crush, noone will take you seriously

I mean...

Peyton Manning had a perfect QB rating against Denver in 2003 in the playoffs...with 5 TD's...and followed that up by beating the Chiefs in a hostile Arrowhead environment in a game that featured no punts...

But those don't count...he didn't deliver in those games...

We'll just point out his 3 shitty games against the Patriots...a team who lost draft picks, significant ones, for CHEATING over those years...

and we'll turn a blind eye at Tom Brady and his postseason "chokes"...

For every Peyton Manning choke, I can match it with a Tom Brady choke...

Just so you know.

hey milkman...real quick...can I get your input?

What's my devastating to a team?

A pick 6 in the 1st half of the AFC Championship game?

Or...

An interception in the oppositions territory on a 2nd down when you're down by 4 in the AFC Championship game, last drive of the season, where a TD advances you to the Super Bowl...and a turnover ends your season?

Which one is more devastating to a team?

hey milkman...real quick...can I get your input?

What's my devastating to a team?

A pick 6 in the 1st half of the AFC Championship game?

Or...

An interception in the oppositions territory on a 2nd down when you're down by 4 in the AFC Championship game, last drive of the season, where a TD advances you to the Super Bowl...and a turnover ends your season?

Which one is more devastating to a team?

The only thing your are accomplishing here is running up your post count.

so what are you accomplishing?

the problem with this debate is my posts are FULL of substance...because I have statistics and GAME PROVIDED evidence to back up my claims...

So the debate always hits a brick wall because the Brady backers have nothing to turn to eventually...

Shit milkman played the "Peyton Manning is a pussy in the pocket" card because they TRULY have nothing left and that is what they are down to.

Thought you werent going to acknowledge me? I dont say anything of interest to you, remember.

To answer your question, im managing to not make myself look like a reerun, unlike you.

well that's rich right there LMAO

Thought you werent going to acknowledge me? I dont say anything of interest to you, remember.

To answer your question, im managing to not make myself look like a reerun, unlike you.

You know what else is rich? That response. Because you know noone here respects your opinions, at least on this subject. Just read the threa.

Brady has to be considered top 10 all time based on Super Bowls and winning percentage alone. His best traits are his accuracy, efficiency and decisionmaking.

I think the 16-0 season and record-setting year has put him contention for top 5, but I feel like he needs at least one or two more epic moments to crack the top 3.
Posted via Mobile Device

So when Manning put up 3 points against New England in the 2004 playoffs was that Manning "choking in the biggest game of his life" like Brady against the Giants? And why was the SB against the Giants the biggest game of his life? He played and won 3 other Super Bowls. They were pretty big too.
Posted via Mobile Device

I saw that argument with Hamas, and I'd have to say that as much I hate agree with you in any debate, I do agree with you on that.

How about playing like shit against the Jets in the 2002 playoffs!, throwing 4 picks in the 2003 AFCCG, putting up 3 points against the Patriots in 2004, playing like shit against the Steelers in 2005 and Chargers in 2007 and 2008.
Was that devastating to his team?
Posted via Mobile Device

The point, dumbass, is that in offense that is predicated on timing, the QB has to be able to stand in the pocket and deliver the pass at the right time.

The chance that it might lead to injury is greater, so one could argue that he's protecting the Colts chances.

However, Kurt Warner stands in the pocket and delivers in the face of pressure, which has left him playing with a lot of nicks and dings, and a couple injuries, including a thumb which had a huge affect on his performance for a couple years.

Do you not understand "in the clutch, late in games"?

Other than that shitty game against the shitty Chiefs defense when he nearly pissed away the game to a terrible Chiefs team, playing well against far inferior opponents is not surprising.

He should.

I'm talking about making plays against top tier teams with top defenses in the face of consistent pressure, late in games when he needs to lead his team to scores.

He's delivered only once.

I love this. I just pointed out all of Mannings chokes. Please match it.
Hootie. Nobody has made the stupid claim that Manning is not a great qb. You are the one has knocked Brady. You haven't made a credible case.
And you make up false stats, like Brady led the Patriots on 20 yard drives so that Vinatieri could kick 45 yard fgs. In SB 36 the drive was 53 yards in 1:21 with no timeouts. The SB 38 drive was 30 with a minute and no timeout after he had passed for over 300 yards and led them on a clutch TD drive to put them ahead before Carolina came back with a quick TD pass to Proehl.
Try not making up shit to make a moronic point.
Posted via Mobile Device

Super Bowl 36 proved to me how tough Kurt Warner is. The Patriots beat him up and he kept coming and coming and coming and if the Patriots don't get that last drive the Rams win in OT. Warner is a first ballot hall of famer.
Posted via Mobile Device

You know, I hate the whole "culture" thing that has been coming up in changing a team's fortunes in the last few years, but the fact is, as Colin Cowherd said on his show, Warner has changed the culture of two moribund franchises.

If he doesn't get into the HoF on the first ballot, there needs to be an investigation.

Yea, the last 2 years should have printed his ticket. There is no reasonable way to deny it.

Is there an undafted QB currently in the HOF?

Don't know.

Otto Graham, maybe.

Bart Starr was a 17th round selection.

I thought about that after I posted the question. It's hard to compare old school to now with all the draft rounds there used to be. Of course there were fewer teams back then so there are more players taken each round now and fewer each round back then.

Then you have the issue of there being the AFL and NFL both drafting players for 10 or so years.

I would say modern era there probably isn't an UDFA QB in the HOF.

Hootie thinks Bart Starr was just a game manager.
Posted via Mobile Device

What's to argue, the facts are what they are. Most everyone on here discussing them are well acquainted with each and every one of them. And all we can do with them at this point is bicker over which facts is more important than other facts.

I watched each and every moment of both player's careers in the playoffs and have made my assessment. Until NEW facts, previously unearthed and outside those observations, come to light, all we're doing is saying 'these fact prove X more definitively than thoser facts prove Y.' And all that is, is you [royal you] own personal hierarchy or the relative gravity of facts.

So much of what a QB is goes to the system they are in and the talent around them.

Look at Kurt Warner. Great, horrible, great again. Remember, he was cut in St. Louis and bombed in NY. He didn't even start an NFL game at all until he was 28 years old. And, in 2000, Trent Green had a higher passer rating with the same talent. (Green was the backup and played 7 games).

And, now, he is a 'sure' HOF'er.

Brady went from 'game manager' in the fans' eyes to elite QB, and now back to game manager.

The key is a good offense, time in the offense and comfort level in the offense, and surrounding talent.

Warren Moon

Oh yea, went to Canada first. Thanks.

Out of all the quarterbacks ive seen, that guy threw the best ball imo. Bold statement I know.

I agree, unfortunately, as clutch as he was in Canada, he always managed to make one play less than he had to in the NFL playoffs. I'd rank him with Marino,Tarkenton, and Fouts in the early teens.
Posted via Mobile Device

The thing they don't get or refuse to acknowledge, is that unlike Sirs Brady and Cassel, whose college careers could best be defined as a non-existent, well-executed fart, Mark Sanchez actually played as a starter and a leader for his team, and led them to a Bowl.
And as such, his difficulties at the pro level are do largely in part to his refusal to give up on the play. Forcing, trying to make something happen when he should know to let it go. That comes with time and experience, and his arm and mechanics are just fine.
He'll do fine or better than fine as the years roll by.
Of course, being part of an organization that doesn't have it's head up it's ass helps as well, yes.

The Houston Oilers may in fact be one of the greatest non-superbowl teams. But they just always managed to choke for some reason and Moon had to be a part of that which was the sad part.

I think had he played more he would have shattered Elway, Marino, Tarkenton all those guys records. Imagine if you add 5 more years of NFL experience to his career? If you add up the total amount of passing yards from both his CFL and NFL career I think its equal to or greater than 70,000 :eek: THAT is phenomenal

And if he won championships in the NFL, people would be talking about him as the greatest ever. Although he was a winner, you just don't hear much of the CFL since it is a lower class league. Moon is top 5 in my books.

I wonder how many people that read this thread even know what the Montreal screwjob even refers to.

Doesn't that have to do with wrestling?

Well, if that is the way they feel about it, I would gladly trade them back Cassel and Vrabel for the Pat's 2nd this April.

Discount pricing IS available.

It's what happens when a straight guy walks into a a montreal strip club advertising "danseurs".

It was Bill Simmons' dad, a guy who if you ever read his columns, is the most fickle fan imaginable.

Jesus, you're a ****ing reerun.

Yup

Moon was a hell of QB, but top 5?

What hell is your dumb ass smoking?

The thing I love the most about this thread, other than displaying yet another facet of Hootie's unending dumbassery, is the fact that it's based on an entirely false premise.

you don't think I know it was a tongue-in-cheek comment by Bill Simmons' dad?

I've read every piece of Bill Simmons literature for the last 8 years of my life.

To the people that were asking of Sorgi could win 11 games in Indys system..No..and only because Jim Sorgi shouldnt even be in the NFL..So what if Cassel/Brady play in a system..Obviously not everyone is capable of playin in it (See Kevin O'Connell)..If Manning had a decent backup that had to play, I wouldnt rule out a possible 10 win season

So Brady is the product of the system and talent... but Manning isn't?


ROFL

Then perhaps you should re-read it, because the entire point of that excerpt is that

1) The fans shouldn't turn on Brady (hence the Montreal Screwjob reference)

and

2) His dad said it.

You completely missed the point, and decided to rant about how Simmons compared Brady to Cassel.

Nothing could be further from the truth, but it didn't stop you from creating this stupid ****ing thread.

Why not?

He has the numbers to show for that are right up there with the best. The only thing thats missing are superbowl rings. I bet if he won a few championships he'd have more of a reputation.

Once he was introduced to the run and shoot offense in houston, he flourished and I think he may have very well re-defined the quarterback position in a lot of ways during that era.

Mechanically speaking, I think he was the most polished quarterback I've ever seen. Once you combine that with the numbers, thats good enough to easily place him at the top.

Like I said, the only thing thats missing are the rings. Thats pretty much the hole in this argument. But if you want to compare his numbers, and his overall mechanics or attributes to the other great quarterbacks he can easily match or surpass them making him a top 5 quarterback.

I don't think either are system guys, but Manning especially isn't.

The guy is a master. An absolute master.

And yet, he and his Houston Oilers pissed away playoff opportunities, including giving up the largest lead in playoff history.

Great QBs with 35 point leads, even if his defense is giving up points by the boat load find a way to rally the troops and secure that win.

greatness isn't measured by stats or pretty mechanics alone.

Moon threw the prettiest interceptions I've ever seen.

Umm, sorry but I don't think this is a fair statement simply because I believe football is a team game. It's always going to involve more than one guy. Now, are you trying to say, you don't view Moon as a "great" leader like the other great quarterbacks?

I think it's the teams responsibilty to get together rally, perform at a high level and make all the plays necessary to win the game. Moon did his share to help his team win games, unfortunately the other guys around him didn't.

*The bottom portion of your post I can agree with, which leads me to ask you this question, what else do you believe a quarterback has to do to prove greatness?

Make plays when the game is on the line, and lead their teams to Championships.

And yes, great QBs are leaders that teams rally around.

The Patriots lost to the Ravens last week because of Tom Brady.

Not Randy Moss, not Matt Light, not Bill Belichick - Tom Brady. He played absolutely horrific football, put his team in a massive hole and played right into Baltimore's hands.

Manning simply played a competent game against an elite defense and his team won fairly easily. And when I said Manning wouldn't have taken the sack/strip like Brady did - time the brady sack against the Manning dump at the end of the 2nd half right before the TD. The situations were virtually identical, with Suggs blowing untouched around the LT and closing in the QBs blind-side. Manning felt the pressure and got the ball out, Brady didn't.

Manning is a better quarterback. He's a damn quarterbacking robot. It's virtually impossible to play the position better than he does yet some people simply refuse to acknowledge it. Those people are spending their time harping on the guy instead of realizing that the history books will likely refer to him as the greatest quarterback in NFL history when all is said and done. It's a shame, really.

I don't see much merit in the historical argument either, Mannings been the better QB over the course of their respective careers. However, I'll set that aside and acknowledge the 3 SBs point (even if I think it's crap) for the sake of mere discussion. That said, there's no argument whatsoever that Manning is presently the better QB. And I see very little debating who will be the better QB over the course of the remainder of their careers.

You and however believes this is epically stupid.

Not really just top 3-5. Top 10-15 can be all-time.

Do you really wanna be held in the same light as Hootie? :spock:

Oops...:)

I'm a Patriots fan, and even I'm sick of reading this shit and seeing "Patriots, Patriots, Patriots" all over the place, LOL.

Cassel is decent.
Brady is excellent.
Hootie doesn't like Brady.
Some of you don't like Cassel, others want to give him more time.

I think that about covers it.

Josh McDaniels aka The QB GURU.

Put Cassel under center for the Colts and tell me how many games they win.

Can't speak for hypotheticals, but under center for the Patriots he won one more game than Brady. :shrug:

Brady looked horrible because he never seemed quite right after his injury. He just went through a full season putting a lot of pressure on a recovering knee. You could see it in the passes he was throwing--a lot more dead ducks than you usually see out of Brady. You could see it in his inability to slide out of protection. I don't know if this is a permanent thing. But it's definitely not reflective of his body of work.

I've always thought Manning's a better QB. But Manning and Brady, in my opinion, will and should go into the books as one of the top 10, probably even top 5 QBs of all time.

Brady in 2009 looked a lot like Manning in 2008. The healthy Manning in 2009 looked a lot like the healthy Brady in 2007.

Manning has the physical gifts, Brady has the calmness and decision-making edge.

They're both good.

Horse. Dead. Still being beaten.

He was rarely under center, and when he was he wasn't worth a ****.

That's part of the problem.

With Weis, if he doesn't show progress this year he has go to.

I'll be very interested to see the results.

The coaches are in place, so all the pressure is now on the players to perform.

I know when I ask you, I'll get an informed answer rather than a barrage of posts about how stupid I am....so I pose this question to you:

With Weis' knowledge of Clausen would they trade Cassel (even though he probably doesn't have any value to anyone but McDaniels in Denver) and draft Clausen instead?

We have so many more pressing needs, but my concern is that someone might talk Pioli/Haley into seeing Clausen as the QBOTF and trade Cassel for an extra draft pic.

mmaddog
*******

Agreed.

Same deal with the front office.

There's no excuse from the top down to not see significant progress in 2010.

Okay, now this can be taken two ways.

Way Number One: Cassel is a sucky quarterback who can't operate from under center.

Way Number Two: Cassel is better utilized in a spread formation shotgun-style approach, and Haley didn't know how to use him efficiently like Belichick did, so Haley was trying to pound a square peg into a round hole all year.

And both interpretations don't account for the other variables, like "having an O-line that can block" or "having targets who can get open". Although from most reports it seems like Cassel has had some time to throw and just didn't hit the target or tried to throw it to a different target. Which are problems that Bledsoe had in his final years, after being shellshocked by seasons of abuse. :shrug:

The question is, does Cassel have the brains and ability to run the Chiefs offense better. Judging from what he did in New England, I say "yes". I think having Weis will help him, since Weis will probably call more Cassel-friendly plays than Haley did.

****ing idiot.


Oh....sorry.
Instinctive reaction.

Seriously, I'd be surprised to see anyone talking Pioli into trading Cassel this year, especially after the year he had here, making his value far less than what we gave up for him.

I'd also be surprised if Weis could even talk him into draftong Clausen even without a trade simply to hedge his bet.

They're not yanking Cassel after one season. Especially not before seeing what Weis can do, and what Cassel looks like with a year of the Chiefs under his belt.

But I'd disagree with "especially after the year he had here". Yeah, he didn't look great. But he still did some things. He was 20th in passing yardage, better than Matt Ryan, Mark Sanchez, and some other QBs who might be considered "better than Cassel". His TD/INT ratio was dead even (as was Matt Hasselbeck's); Cutler's was one TD better than even, and Stafford and Sanchez had way more INTs than TDs.

His QB rating was 25th. Sucks, huh? But look at the 24 guys above him.

100+ to 90:
1. Brees
2. Favre
3. Rivers
4. Rodgers
5. Roethlisberger
6. P. Manning
7. Schaub
8. Romo
9. Brady
10. Warner
11. E. Manning
12. McNabb

90 to 80:
13. Flacco
14. Orton
15. Campbell
16. Palmer
17. Garrard
18. Young
19. Smith

80 to 70:
20. Ryan
21. Cutler
22. Henne
23. Hasselbeck
24. Bulger
25. Cassel (69.9)

I think it's safe to say that the top group of 13 are clearly pretty elite QBs. The rest could be mixed-and-matched IMO and the difference in their numbers can be attributed to the talent around them, the teams they played, and the bounce of the ball. I don't think David Garrard or Chad Henne are that much better than Cassel, just as I don't think Flacco, Orton, or Campbell are necessarily better than Carson Palmer.

For a guy with his first year with a new team, with a new coach (who is new at his job), and a shaky cast of characters, IMO Cassel did about what I expected. Sure, there were many games and plays he could've done better. Doesn't mean he's a bust.

If 8 games in '09 were enough to shellshock Cassel, he's an unbelievable pussy.

He needs another viable weapon, and then he needs to perform. No excuses.

And even reading the words "Cassel-friendly [system]" make me sigh.

I wish I had his under center vs shotgun snaps stats. It seemed to me that Haley had Cassel under center quite a bit. Which is why Gailey was removed from the OC job. He would have had Cassel in the pistol instead of trying to develope his skills under center.


PhilFree:arrow:

I was alluding to his time in NE, but I brought up his KC stats for the sake of comparison:

Shotgun: one of the worst QBs in the league.
Under center: one of the worst QBs in the league.

End analysis: 44/46.

(I'd be interested in the numbers, too, in all seriousness.)