I apologize. It wasn't my intent to single you out though upon re-reading, I completely understand how you read it as such.

Again, my apologies.

That is definitely one thing you can take out of this draft... that our scouting department does not give a flying leap about 40 times, that's for sure.

Well said Dane. I will never forgive Pioli for the 09 draft class, throw Sanchez and Maualaga in here and we are on the verge of challenging. But I have no idea how anyone can look at what we have added this weekend and give it a D grade. They filled needs across the board with quality prospects(4 of Gosselin's top 75). It's right up there with the 08 class as far as I'm concerned.
Posted via Mobile Device

Dane I disagree with you the Arenas pick was ****ing horrible. For ****s sake they could have traded back and drafted Arenas. And Pioli has traded how many picks to draft tight ends?

That is demonstrably false.

The Pro Bowl is littered with UDFA kick returners. Clifton Smith, Michael Lewis, Josh Cribbs, to name a few.

Not to mention elite KR's like LaRod Stephens-Howling, Stefan Logan, or even SEMO's own Willie Ponder.

Wasting a 2nd round draft pick on a kick returner is completely foolish.

What you can't find are elite nose tackles off the street.

Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork, Jamal Williams, Shaun Rogers, and Kris Jenkins were all very high draft picks.

It's a complete inversion of value.

And Dane, the only TE in this draft with gigantic upside was Jimmy Graham, not Tony Moeaki.

And why the **** didn't we draft Freddie Barnes?

The Saints did it with Roaf when Aaron Brooks played QB for them.

I don't subscribe to the "Trade back" and get your guy theory.

If he's YOUR GUY, get him. If YOU think you're right about a player, get him while you can. Don't take a chance.

As for tight ends, it's hard NOT to like this guy. He's had some bad luck but nothing serious (i.e. ACL's, MCL's, etc.). I think they want a Mark Bavaro/Dallas Clark type of guy on offense and no one on the roster fits that bill.

Look, I would have loved if we would have drafted Freddie Barnes, but I'm not going to flip my shit over it.

It would have been nice if Pioli would have put in a call rather than holding a PC during the time in which GMs are most active trying to bring in UDFAs, but the odds of getting him at that point were very low.

What I'm much more upset about is that virtually everyone on this forum agreed with the Berry pick, and then because of that, completely turned off their brains and rationalized every other pick because of the Berry pick.

The disappointment doesn't come from "a" guy not being picked, it's that with every post-Berry pick save for Asamoah, you could list 10-15 guys who we should have taken instead of the guys we did.

And if anyone wants me to list them, I will.

Well then, I guess McDaniels do that, but I'd be surprised.

I know everyone here is laughing at McDaniels but at least he's rebuilding the team exactly as he sees fit. Hopefully, it doesn't work but I give him credit for putting his ass on the line.

You think there is no chance for Moeaki to be a productive, successful TE, injuries aside?

I don't care we didn't draft him I meant why didn't we sign him as a UFDA instead of Menelik ****ing Holt? Who is the regional scout because he ****ing sucks. We could have also signed Matt O'Hanlon who will be better than that turd safety they drafted.

I didn't turn anything off though Hamas. At first I was pissed about McCluster but if you really think about it he'll be a good player. As for Arenas that was a horrible ****ing pick. He's undersized and slow. You can draft a good kick returner in the later rounds.

Yea but there guy sucks.


As for the tight end it looks like the guy can't even stay on his feet injuries aside. I'm tired of drafting all these fragile guys. If a guy doesn't stay healthy in college he won't stay healthy in the NFL.

Well, I really liked round two and don't feel like I've turned my brain off.

I just happen to believe there are different ways of building a football team.

If Pioli had chosen an ILB and NT, I'd have supported those decisions. Instead, he chose a couple of very dynamic playmakers. Now, you can say he should have waited, got better value, blah, blah, blah. The reality of that opinion is that it can't be proven at this point in time.

If Belcher, Mays, Smith, etc. all improve their play this year while Arenas and McCluster provide game winning plays or consistent playmaking from this positions, it'll prove to be an excellent decision.

If McCluster and Arenas perform as expected but the middle of the defense is still soft, it'll need to be addressed in 2011, just as Pioli planned.

If the defense doesn't improve and McCluster and Arenas both totally suck ass, then we can complain that Pioli ****ed up.

But I'm not going to complain now because the biggest thing lacking from this team last year were playmakers. And it appears that Pioli drafted a few. I have difficulty faulting him at this point in time.

And for the record, this is the second year in a row that this is happened, so everyone should plainly expect it in 2011 too.

The team drafts, and 90% of the fans fall over backwards fellating the front office.

Why? Because you can't see the results on the field. All the propaganda that the FO puts out about "The Right 53", the process, etc can't yet be rebutted because the players haven't shown their inability on the field.

Then, the games roll around (and not the PS fluff fests). The team gets it shit pushed in, and the same people who spent all that time fellating the FO now remain silent because they see the failure on the field. But they take all the criticism of the FO personally and they're pissed that they were wrong. Next draft rolls around, and so does the next propaganda campaign.

And what do you have? Hootie going from "disgusted" to comparing McCluster to Desean Jackson, Percy Harvin, and Wes Welker in five minutes. Javier Arenas turns into Devin Hester. McCluster (and look in the draft thread) changes from "McCluster****" to a dynamic playmaker over the course of four hours.


It's just like what Hermann Goering said about getting the common man to buy into war.

Of course you don't want to have a shitty football team. No one does. And you don't want to have a shitty draft. But it seems quite easy, after the initial reaction, to rationalize and therefore hope that the team you rooted for made the right decisions. Not because they are the right decisions, but because the thought of confronting the incompetence of the front office and realizing that this team will never win anything as long as Scott Pioli is GM is too difficult to comprehend.

Most people are still on first "D" of DABDA.

Whats wrong with drafting a playmaer Hamas?

Broken feet and ankles don't mean that someone's fragile. It's just bad luck.

As for your proclamation that McCluster & Arenas "suck", I think you and a few other Chiefsplanet members are in an extremely small minority in that thought.

Both of those guys were ****ing playmakers, big time.

Gruden compares Arenas to Ronde Barber and I'll take that any day of the week.

I wasn't talking about you, specifically, billay. You're one of the few who has remained relatively true to your convictions.

Wait a minute I didn't say McCluster sucked I like Mccluster. Arenas ****ing sucks.

There's never no chance, but he carries a huge risk with far less potential upside than someone like Graham.

Even more laughingly, he's smaller and slower than Brad Cottam as well. Of course, I fully expect that Cottam will be cut because he's not one of the Brahman, so a direct comparison will be difficult.

I'll ask you this much:

Was trading up to get Tony Moeaki worth Cam Thomas?

A week ago, did you know who Tony Moeaki was, and did you have him in the same galaxy of his ability to help this team as a Cam Thomas?

See above. Arenas is going to be a stud nickel back and should be a phenomenal returner.

He's a game changer and that's exactly what this team needs.

I promise you he'll suck at nickelback. One this team has no pass rush. Two. He's not quick at all watch the BCS Title game he was owned by Shipley.

As a returner? Watch the Senoir Bowl game he doesn't have break away speed. He's shifty but not fast.

Who is worth more:

An outside linebacker in a 3-4 who can harass the QB
A 0 technique who can command consistent double teams
A potential franchise QB
A slot receiver with size and speed
A legit #2 receiver


or Dave Meggett

I think McCluster's absolute upside is Dave Meggett.

He'll be a good player, but he's not worth more than the above.

Arenas was absolutely dismantled by Jordan Shipley.

Dave Meggett was a bit before my time wasn't he a running back?

Cody was a two down player so at that pick I would say it's a reach.

I wanted to draft a OLB.

The Benn pick would have been ok but #2 WR isn't a need for this team.



This sort of reminds me of last years draft had Pioli drafted Harvin people would be pissed at the time but now would be ok with it.

Another question:

Drafts are a result of player evaluation skills, obviously, but so are UDFA pickups. The teams who have the best drafts also tend to be the best at getting UDFAs. Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, etc.

Now, look at who they have brought it so far in UDFA

Look at who we have brought in

I think that can tell you a lot about the respective franchises' abilities to evaluate talent, and an extension of that can be applied to this draft.

LMAO Ok. Drafting him were you did was one thing. Giving a 2,3 and 4 to get there is OMGWTFBBQLMAO

Thomas fell all the way to #146. Clearly, more than one team had some reservations about the guy.

Arenas had six career picks at Alabama ROFL

Sure, running the ticket booth, no doubt.

Hamas:

A legitimate question here:

What's the difference in selecting Tony Moeaki vs. selecting Sergio Kindle, not taking in their point of selection but factoring it more on taking a flyer on an injured player?

mmaddog
********

Benn can be a #1 WR. At 50, I was talking about guys like Golden Tate or Damien Williams, who can be slot and #2 guys, respectively.

If we would have drafted any of those 3 at 36, let alone 50 for Tate or Williams, people would have universally lauded those as excellent value picks.


And Dave Meggett was a KR/PR/WR/RB

He had 530 receiving yards his rookie year and around 120 rushing yards, but was one of the best KR and PR in the league (although I don't see McCluster doing either one of those)

He was 5'7 190 pounds.


I guaran****ingtee you, that if you look at Pioli's history and absolute fealty to Parcells and the Patriot way, he didn't think of McCluster as Wes Welker, he thought of him as Dave Meggett.

Whats it say when you basically repeat the same draft in a row aside from a few guys? The Washington, Brown, McConnell picks look like a total waste.

A possible explanation could be that he was good enough that no one threw in his direction? I don't know if that is the right answer...but it's a possible explanation.

mmaddog
********

Those who compare McCluster to Welker don't watch college football.

First, there wasn't consensus opinion, it seems, on the severity of Kindle's injury.

Though the selection is higher, you're not giving up picks to select Kindle, and the risk/reward is entirely slanted in his favor. In KC, we've seen what the greatest TE in the game can bring, and we also have a pretty good idea what a high-quality rush backer can bring, too.

Which would you prefer?

Wow....what a leap..

And what makes you say that?

mmaddog
********

Shipley beat him up pretty bad. The thing is I don't hear alot about his cover skills everyone mentions his punt returning skills. Thats great for a late round pick not a second round pick.

It's just because they're white.

Kindle's knee issue WRT microfracture was something that one team felt he needed. He missed some time as a sophomore, but he doesn't have the catalog of injuries that Moeaki does.

Ultimately, if you want to pass on him for those concerns, I can understand, but it's funny that the same team that took Rolle when we didn't because of spinal stenosis concerns (Baltimore) did the same here.

What I can't understand is why you'd pass up not only Kindle, but Linval Joseph, Daryl Washington, Everson Griffen, Terrance Cody, Torrell Troup, Cam Thomas, etc. multiple times.

For one Mccluster played RB. I don't think Welker was a game changer at WR for Texas Tech as much as teams feared him on special teams.

That's a load of shit. I don't know what ****ing draft you watched in 2009, or what town you were watching it in. Nobody liked last year's draft.

That's revisionist bullshit, and I will bump the threads that prove as much.

First...why would you waste a pick that high on anyone that has had an injury that could affect his mobility?

I'm willing to concede that it might not have any effect and we could have chosen him and I would be wrong. But are you willing to concede that had we picked him and he got hurt in Training Camp/1st Game of the regular season that most, if not all, who were wanting us to select him would be bitching about wasting a high draft pick on a player we knew had an injury before?

mmaddog
********

I have been with you more against you on this draft but I will disagree with this a little bit. I think most people didn't know who he was and was confused because he was listed as a RB. I know for me after listening what other experts have said and watched the video, wow this guy is as explosive as anyone I have seen. So I readily admit I was probably wrong about this guy and am kind of excited that he is on our team.

Didn't Troup go in the 1st Round?

Sorry...but I'm one that sees Cody as Ryan Sims v2 just like Cam Thomas.

I don't follow football as closely as many here do...or at least enough to venture a guess anymore. But all the players mentioned above seemed to come with baggage that made more than 1 team pass them up.

mmaddog
********

Nonsense.

This statement operates with the assumption that some on this board complain for the sake of complaining. To believe this type of assumption, one has to turn a blind eye to a mountain of posts offering some of the most nuanced arguments on the board.

I've seen the best get beaten like a whipped dog in one game...if you are going to guage a person on one game, you're bound to make mistakes.

mmaddog
********

2 yrs ago? 2008? Charles? Albert? Flowers? You dont like these guys?

So..in essence you didn't answer my question.

mmaddog
********

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showt...ighlight=Grade

For keg.

Similar negative grades from most who bashed this draft, save for Dane. Similar reactions from those who support this draft.

You know what the McCluster pick is for me?

It's a better version of Oakland's Mike Mitchell pick.

Oakland reached for the wrong guy, and then it was universally rationalized as "Oh, the Bears were gonna take him if we didn't."

No, he did, you just apparently aren't able to understand the answer.

It was more than just one game watch the senoir bowl. Arenas dosn't have break away speed.

Troup went at 41, IIRC.

But hey man, the Jets passed on Marino, so obviously they know something that we don't.

Well, then let me put it this way:

If you don't know who the player is, you shouldn't offer an opinion.

First off, I knew who Tony Moeaki was before a week ago and with the Ferentz connection, I wasn't surprised by the pick in the least. There is quite a bit of Big Ten football broadcast on ESPN to the west coast and I've seen Iowa play numerous times over the past few years.

Furthermore, it's not my decision as to whether or not Moeaki was worth losing Cam Thomas. The question in the War Room was this:

Can we go into the season with Leonard Pope, Brad Cottam and Jake O'Connell as our tight ends?

Can we go into this season with Ron Edwards and Shaun Smith as our NT's?

Which is better addressed at this particular point in the draft?

There is absolutely no denying that tight end was a position of need. They felt that Moeaki was worth taking at that time and quite frankly, no one, Pioli included, knows if it was exactly the right decision.

But with that said, I'm not going to pretend that someone like Cam Thomas, a fifth rounder, would have even been on their board in the fifth.And even if he was, that shouldn't paralyze any GM from doing what they think is right at any given moment in the draft.

I am completely without words.

How about I pose it here for both of you direct and to the point...

If we picked Kindle at 2a (or hell even 2B) and he was injured would you be bitching about wasting a pick on a player we knew had been injured before?

mmaddog
********

I disagree.

The Kindle and Cody both went to teams that are loaded defensively and are able to take chances (medical and physical/mental) on boom or bust players. The Chiefs cannot at this point in time.

If McCluster's upside is Meggett on the field, sign me up! He was instrumental in those Giants offenses in the 80's and key to their Super Bowl appearances.

I'll take productivity and playmaking over boom or bust guys any day of the week in 2010.

Wow..how arrogant.

Usually it's fun reading your assessment because at least you don't show a team bias....but this year you seem to have a thin skin when it comes to people disagreeing with you.

mmaddog
********

Sorry.

I guarantee that was what was going on in their minds.

I've spoken to quite a few of my friends in the college ranks that have ties to the NFL and the way most of these guys see it, if THEIR guy is on the board, they get him.

I'm not saying that they're right or wrong with that approach but I think that if Moeaki performs as expected, it would have been silly for them to think "Well, if we take Moeaki, we may not have a chance at X player 50 picks down the line".

That kind of thinking paralyzes teams into making bad choices.

It's not arrogant at all.

Would you go to someone off the street who had no idea what Health Care Reform was and ask them their opinion on it?

Would you ask a 90 year old woman who doesn't know the difference between a calculator and a Cray super computer if an I7 was a superior processor to a top of the line AMD?

No.

Nope, great post.

Some don't like being called out as silly fools. The draft comedy from numerous CP " draft experts" has been priceless.

The Clausen man lovers have been the best!

Brown is in no way a waste, unless he ends up on IR once again this season. Even then, he's under contract for at least four more years.

Thing is Moleaki wasn't there they had to give up picks. Just like they gave up picks for Jake O'Connell. Really is the tight end position worth four picks for a team with this many holes?

Begging the question is a logical fallacy

I'm still available. Ready to bring me back?

This

That's not a defensible line of thinking. If anything, it's an admission of their incompetence and it could be seen as impugning the selection of Moeaki, not supporting it.

Is he going to replace Waters, Lilja or Asmogha? Don't forget the picks we gave up for Allenmen and Ndwuke.

Probably true but this is what a message board is for. After people really learned about this kid most people including myself think it was a good pick and are excited. This guy is probably more explosive than most of the WR's in the draft.

In psychology and logic, rationalization (or making excuses<sup id="cite_ref-0" class="reference">[1]</sup>) is the process of constructing a logical justification for a belief, decision, action or lack thereof that was originally arrived at through a different mental process. It is a defense mechanism in which perceived controversial behaviors or feelings are explained in a rational or logical manner to avoid the true explanation of the behavior or feeling in question.<sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference">[2]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference">[3]</sup> It is also an informal fallacy of reasoning.<sup class="Template-Fact" title="This claim needs references to reliable sources from March 2010" style="white-space: nowrap;">[citation needed]</sup>
This process can be in a range from fully conscious (e.g. to present an external defense against ridicule from others) to mostly subconscious (e.g. to create a block against internal feelings of guilt).


Rationalization is one of the defense mechanisms proposed by Sigmund Freud, which were later developed further by his daughter Anna Freud.


According to the DSM-IV, rationalization occurs "when the individual deals with emotional conflict or internal or external stressors by concealing the true motivations for his or her own thoughts, actions, or feelings through the elaboration of reassuring or self serving but incorrect explanations."

It's obvious why: They felt that they needed a guy that could line up at QB, RB and WR, that offered immense versatility more than a NT at this time.

They felt like they needed a dynamic returner and nickel back more than a NT at this time.

They felt like they needed a stud ****ing guard more than a NT at this time.

And on and on and on.

You can disagree all you want with their line of thinking but don't discount the fact that they addressed areas of concern with smart, proven, dedicated football players.

If it isn't obvious now to everyone it should be. The reasons why the Chiefs passed on Kindle, Cody and Cam was because of character concerns. Agree or disagree with that approach but it is what it is.

Here's the way I see the line:

Albert/Asamoah/Niswanger/Brown/O'Callaghan.

If Brown can't beat out Lilja, then Lilja will start at right guard. I think Waters is depth this year or cut loose altogether. I can't understand why Faneca was waived but Waters wasn't.

As for Allenman and Nsukwe, it was a wasted 6th round pick. I think the only way Nsukwe makes the club is as a backup player at right guard and right tackle or injury to one of the starters in preseason.

Appealing to authority is also a logical fallacy.

"You just gotta trust the process".

The one pick that pissed me off more than any other was Javier Arenas. The more I see this kid though, the less I dislike the pick. I HATE the value of McCluster and Arenas both, but I think they're both going to be contributors to the team.

Arenas in particular is someone I'm growing very warm too. The reason for that is not so much his return ability, I saw that right away. If this guy can blitz the QB from the nickel spot and have half the success he had in college, he's going to be a force.

Overall, it is what it is and I'm going to get behind the newest Chiefs. I reserve the right to resume my shit talking should this team come out looking like last year's team did. :p

And I still think we're looking at the worst rush defense in the league. That's going to automatically make the pass defense better and people will say mission accomplished. That's flawed logic IMO.