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-   -   Chiefs Would you consider the offseason FA period a success for the Chiefs? (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=257424)

007 03-18-2012 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 8467797)
And I'm not arguing that.

This poll asks specifically about this free agency period.

I am answering based solely on that.
MM I'm not arguing with you. Just pointing out the Chiefs MO.

Your point is completely valid and I agree with it. Just saying the Chiefs have given us ZERO reason to think they will do it.

L.A. Chieffan 03-18-2012 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 8467672)
Carr is younger and better than routt. You are naive if you think otherwise.
...waiting... :ZZZ:

chiefzilla1501 03-18-2012 11:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 8467778)
There's your problem right there.

The Chiefs need to be drafting core positions, not trying to find those players in free agency.

Free agency should be used in exactly the manner in which the Chiefs have used it this offseason.
Well, you know I agree with you that great teams are built through the draft. But it's different when your team ignores those positions in both the draft and free agency for 3 years. Those core positions take 2-3 years to develop. So by the time those guys develop, we're in year 6 of the Pioli era. If we had been filling our roster with some nice potential guys at those positions for 3 years, I'd feel differently.

That's why I'm harping on the Orton over Cassel thing. I know Orton isn't the answer. But when your front office completely ignores the QB position for 3 years (except for one guy who is clearly not the answer), then you have to use free agency to bring in a stopgap. Those stopgaps don't kill your cap, but they at least give you some reasonable chance at winning and it allows you to be more selective about young QBs as well as give them time to develop and grow. Orton is significantly better than Cassel. He allows your team to start running an offense you believe you can run for 5 years (with the hope that in 1-2 years, you have a new QB running that same system). Cassel doesn't do that. And by the way, whereas Cassel makes you complete non-contenders, at least Orton makes you a longshot.

So yeah, downgrading at CB, downgrading at QB, and making less than optimal decisions at coach... those balance out the good moves we made at support positions. We can't call this offseason anything close to success if we don't make any moves, whether free agency or the draft, to address some unbelievably critical core positional needs.

milkman 03-18-2012 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 8467879)
Well, you know I agree with you that great teams are built through the draft. But it's different when your team ignores those positions in both the draft and free agency for 3 years. Those core positions take 2-3 years to develop. So by the time those guys develop, we're in year 6 of the Pioli era. If we had been filling our roster with some nice potential guys at those positions for 3 years, I'd feel differently.

That's why I'm harping on the Orton over Cassel thing. I know Orton isn't the answer. But when your front office completely ignores the QB position for 3 years (except for one guy who is clearly not the answer), then you have to use free agency to bring in a stopgap. Those stopgaps don't kill your cap, but they at least give you some reasonable chance at winning and it allows you to be more selective about young QBs as well as give them time to develop and grow. Orton is significantly better than Cassel. He allows your team to start running an offense you believe you can run for 5 years (with the hope that in 1-2 years, you have a new QB running that same system). Cassel doesn't do that. And by the way, whereas Cassel makes you complete non-contenders, at least Orton makes you a longshot.

So yeah, downgrading at CB, downgrading at QB, and making less than optimal decisions at coach... those balance out the good moves we made at support positions. We can't call this offseason anything close to success if we don't make any moves, whether free agency or the draft, to address some unbelievably critical core positional needs.
You still fail to understand the only thing that matters in this discussion.

The question is, "Would you consider the offseason FA period a success for the Chiefs?".

It doesn't ask how this FA period is affected by any other period or decision of Pioli's that is not a part of this FA period.

In and of itself, this FA period, standing apart from every other issue, is a success.

chiefzilla1501 03-18-2012 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by L.A.Chieffan (Post 8467733)
Here, let me help you out. Football Outsiders CB charting for 2011 up through week 13:


Top 12 CB in Success Rate, 2011 (through Week 13)
Player Team Passes Suc% Yd/Pass Avg Dist YAC
D.Revis NYJ 30 73% 3.0 17.1 2.2
J.Greer NO 63 71% 5.6 11.2 7.1
I.Taylor PIT 72 70% 4.9 13.7 2.6
R.Sherman SEA 49 69% 6.1 13.4 3.0
A.Samuel PHI 55 67% 4.5 14.8 2.2
S.Routt OAK 58 67% 4.8 10.9 2.7
D.Patterson CLE 34 67% 5.9 9.3 4.7
J.Wilson WAS 53 66% 5.9 12.5 3.3
C.Finnegan TEN 40 65% 4.0 7.2 2.9
R.Mathis JAC 34 65% 9.1 13.3 5.9
B.Grimes ATL 44 64% 6.5 14.8 5.2
C.Gamble CAR 35 63% 6.8 11.7 3.1

Essentially, Routt is the 6th best CB in the league and that's while covering the opposing teams #1. Notice who's NOT on the list?

Also interestingly the other guy whos on the list Finnegan just signed for $10 mil so we got a better CB for cheaper there as well.

Check out what PFF says about the Carr signing:

"Brandon Carr to DAL: Carr is a good cornerback, but the Cowboys have spent an awful lot of money on potential as opposed to production. He is an upgrade for their secondary, but one that may struggle to live up to the price tag."

Now again, tell me why Carr is SO MUCH BETTER than Routt?
Routt is not the NFL's 6th best CB. You can't look at statistics and even begin to suggest these are parallel situations. Brandon Carr did in fact grade in the top 10 in 2010, and that's despite the fact that the Chiefs had a horrendous pass rush which leaves your corners on your man for longer and that allows your QB to patiently step into throws.

There's plenty of reasons why statistically Carr rates as worse. The Chiefs had a horrendous pass rush for most of this season. The pass rush didn't step up until Houston started to emerge later in the season. The Chiefs had horrendous safety help all of this season. For most of the season, especially during the Palko era, the Chiefs' defense was on the field for entirely too long. That drains the hell out of your defense. That tires out Carr. More importantly, it tires out your pass rushers, which again goes back to the problem of Carr having to cover for longer.

Carr is a better player and his upside makes him even better. In 2012, getting Berry back and having Houston all year long as well as getting great coaching, he'd only get much better.

O.city 03-18-2012 11:23 AM
I agree on the qb issue, however, there really isn't much out there. I would have loved orton but not sure its much of an upgrade in the end.

They made some good solid moves. We need to have a great draft and add some rmore pieces, get depth and maybe find a diamond in the rough qb.

Its not ideal but it is where we are. I myself am excited about Stanzi

L.A. Chieffan 03-18-2012 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 8467926)
Routt is not the NFL's 6th best CB. You can't look at statistics and even begin to suggest these are parallel situations. Brandon Carr did in fact grade in the top 10 in 2010, and that's despite the fact that the Chiefs had a horrendous pass rush which leaves your corners on your man for longer and that allows your QB to patiently step into throws.

There's plenty of reasons why statistically Carr rates as worse. The Chiefs had a horrendous pass rush for most of this season. The pass rush didn't step up until Houston started to emerge later in the season. The Chiefs had horrendous safety help all of this season. For most of the season, especially during the Palko era, the Chiefs' defense was on the field for entirely too long. That drains the hell out of your defense. That tires out Carr. More importantly, it tires out your pass rushers, which again goes back to the problem of Carr having to cover for longer.

Carr is a better player and his upside makes him even better. In 2012, getting Berry back and having Houston all year long as well as getting great coaching, he'd only get much better.
Oh ok, so you cant use stats now. BUT WAIT, since you just DID when you mentioned 2010 here you go:


Top 10 Cornerbacks in Success Rate, 2010
Player Team Charted
Targets Yd/Pass Rk Success
Rate Rk Avg. Pass
Distance YAC Rk
Darrelle Revis NYJ 57 5.6 11 70% 1 16.5 4.7 74
Antoine Winfield MIN 57 4.2 1 67% 2 9.0 3.4 40
Stanford Routt OAK 92 5.7 13 66% 3 15.1 4.9 77
Tramon Williams GB 83 5.5 9 66% 4 14.3 4.0 55
Ronald Bartell STL 83 5.2 5 65% 5 14.0 3.2 36
Sean Smith MIA 49 6.7 29 63% 6 11.8 4.4 68
E.J. Biggers TB 65 5.7 12 63% 7 13.3 2.9 25
Joselio Hanson PHI 46 4.4 2 63% 8 9.2 1.5 1
Antonio Cromartie NYJ 102 6.0 16 63% 9 17.1 3.2 32
Brandon Carr KC 105 7.1 35 61% 10 16.1 4.2 58


SPIN SPIN SPIN

milkman 03-18-2012 11:25 AM
I have to say, zilla, it's pathetic to get owned by a dumbass troll like you've been owned by LAChieffafn.

L.A. Chieffan 03-18-2012 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 8467947)
I have to say, zilla, it's pathetic to get owned by a dumbass troll like you've been owned by LAChieffafn.
LMAO

bricks 03-18-2012 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Tomahawk (Post 8465607)
With the additions of Routt, Hillis, Boss, and now Winston; do you consider this a successful offseason thus far?


If no...who else would we need to sign (realistically) in order for you to consider it a success?
I think its been a pretty good offseason thus far.

Im just looking at it from a simple point of view.

Hillis>Battle or T.Jones

Boss>Pope

Winston>>>>BRich....Light years better. This is the position that has the most significant improvement.

Quinn>Palko. Not saying much here though.

Routt < Carr. But hey, Carr was demanding a lot of $$$. Routt in all honesty is not a bad #2 corner.


*considering what they spent and the value they got in return is what makes it pretty successful imo.

chiefzilla1501 03-18-2012 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 8467909)
You still fail to understand the only thing that matters in this discussion.

The question is, "Would you consider the offseason FA period a success for the Chiefs?".

It doesn't ask how this FA period is affected by any other period or decision of Pioli's that is not a part of this FA period.

In and of itself, this FA period, standing apart from every other issue, is a success.
Ok, that's a fair statement. I was factoring in the coaching moves, which I think is basically free agency. So fine, I agree that in terms of addressing Nose Tackle... that's probably a draft decision.

But still... Your strategy has to change if you made mistakes in the past. Pioli struggled to draft receivers for the Pats. So he bought Moss and Welker. Phenomenal moves, even if Moss flamed out eventually. The moves in the past demanded that the Chiefs get the best stopgap QB. Orton is the ideal stopgap. His contract was short-term, he's a significantly better QB than Cassel, he at least gives you a very good chance of winning a playoff game (badly needed) and a small outside chance of winning a Super Bowl (Cassel gives you zero chance), and he lets you run a regular offense. His contract is also ridiculously cap friendly in 2013 and 2014--he would be a very good backup whereas you absolutely have to cut Cassel in 2013. The second option was Peyton Manning--also a perfect QB because of the Chiefs' current situation. No matter which way you look at it, whether they didn't try or because their reputation is bad, they were embarrassed. The Chiefs are going to walk into 2012 with the window wide open rallying behind a QB who is awful. And that's in spite of the fact that they had opportunity to do much better. Also keep in mind that because of the poor QB class, you know the draft isn't a great option to fill that need either.

At cornerback, let's think about this situationally again. We know this team isn't going to the Super Bowl in 2-3 years because of our QB situation. So why did we trade a 26 year old entering his prime for a 29 year old who is in his prime and probably has about 3 years of prime left in his body (if even that).

So we downgraded two core positions and upgraded 3 support positions. Two of them aren't even going to be full time players. That's discounting the fact that as part of our offseason, we made suboptimal coaching decisions.

chiefzilla1501 03-18-2012 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 8467947)
I have to say, zilla, it's pathetic to get owned by a dumbass troll like you've been owned by LAChieffafn.
Are you really going to sit here and say that, money and age aside, that you would rather have Stanford Routt than Brandon Carr? I don't think anybody in their right mind truly believes that. I don't know how I've been owned because LAChieffan has a few stats to share in a position where stats are very heavily influenced by the talent surrounding you.

milkman 03-18-2012 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 8468027)
Ok, that's a fair statement. I was factoring in the coaching moves, which I think is basically free agency. So fine, I agree that in terms of addressing Nose Tackle... that's probably a draft decision.

But still... Your strategy has to change if you made mistakes in the past. Pioli struggled to draft receivers for the Pats. So he bought Moss and Welker. Phenomenal moves, even if Moss flamed out eventually. The moves in the past demanded that the Chiefs get the best stopgap QB. Orton is the ideal stopgap. His contract was short-term, he's a significantly better QB than Cassel, he at least gives you a very good chance of winning a playoff game (badly needed) and a small outside chance of winning a Super Bowl (Cassel gives you zero chance), and he lets you run a regular offense. His contract is also ridiculously cap friendly in 2013 and 2014--he would be a very good backup whereas you absolutely have to cut Cassel in 2013. The second option was Peyton Manning--also a perfect QB because of the Chiefs' current situation. No matter which way you look at it, whether they didn't try or because their reputation is bad, they were embarrassed. The Chiefs are going to walk into 2012 with the window wide open rallying behind a QB who is awful. And that's in spite of the fact that they had opportunity to do much better. Also keep in mind that because of the poor QB class, you know the draft isn't a great option to fill that need either.

At cornerback, let's think about this situationally again. We know this team isn't going to the Super Bowl in 2-3 years because of our QB situation. So why did we trade a 26 year old entering his prime for a 29 year old who is in his prime and probably has about 3 years of prime left in his body (if even that).

So we downgraded two core positions and upgraded 3 support positions. Two of them aren't even going to be full time players. That's discounting the fact that as part of our offseason, we made suboptimal coaching decisions.
We are never going to agree about Kyle Ortan and his impact on this team, so we can just throw that out the window.

Regardless of the reason Peyton Manning snubbed the Cheifs, the fact is, he did, and Pioli never had a chance to make that move.

We are also never going to agree about the difference between Carr and Routt, and as I've said, no one was as supportive or as big a fan as I was.

At the end of the day, I don't agree with any of your relative points.

I think Pioli has handled free agency this year exactly the way freeagency should be handled.

He's done a fine job, this year, and this roster, overall is improved.

We aren't winning anything, still, because of Matt Cassel, nor would we with Kyle Ortan.

milkman 03-18-2012 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 8468037)
Are you really going to sit here and say that, money and age aside, that you would rather have Stanford Routt than Brandon Carr? I don't think anybody in their right mind truly believes that. I don't know how I've been owned because LAChieffan has a few stats to share in a position where stats are very heavily influenced by the talent surrounding you.
I'm saying that, for the difference in contracts, Pioli made a shrewd move and the right decision.

chiefzilla1501 03-18-2012 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by L.A.Chieffan (Post 8467941)
Oh ok, so you cant use stats now. BUT WAIT, since you just DID when you mentioned 2010 here you go:


Top 10 Cornerbacks in Success Rate, 2010
Player Team Charted
Targets Yd/Pass Rk Success
Rate Rk Avg. Pass
Distance YAC Rk
Darrelle Revis NYJ 57 5.6 11 70% 1 16.5 4.7 74
Antoine Winfield MIN 57 4.2 1 67% 2 9.0 3.4 40
Stanford Routt OAK 92 5.7 13 66% 3 15.1 4.9 77
Tramon Williams GB 83 5.5 9 66% 4 14.3 4.0 55
Ronald Bartell STL 83 5.2 5 65% 5 14.0 3.2 36
Sean Smith MIA 49 6.7 29 63% 6 11.8 4.4 68
E.J. Biggers TB 65 5.7 12 63% 7 13.3 2.9 25
Joselio Hanson PHI 46 4.4 2 63% 8 9.2 1.5 1
Antonio Cromartie NYJ 102 6.0 16 63% 9 17.1 3.2 32
Brandon Carr KC 105 7.1 35 61% 10 16.1 4.2 58


SPIN SPIN SPIN
Darrelle Revis is a rare exception. He's a guy who can shut a guy down on an island. Most CBs need help from a supporting cast. A good defensive pass rush makes your CBs look great. It forces QBs to make bad decisions. It turns an accurate throw into an inaccurate throw. We know that the Chiefs in 2010 had a horribly inconsistent pass rush. It was completely invisible for most of those games. The Raiders have a whole lot more push. Their defensive interior is incredibly active and Richard Seymour is the type of guy who influences QBs on a snap by snap basis.

In 2011, there are tons of situational things that could leave Carr out of the top 10. Adding Berry and having Houston all season long would probably have put him back, and he probably could have even broken the top 5.

Your statistics may prove that Routt is a good corner, which we already knew. It doesn't say he's better than Carr. In almost every single free agency wish list, Carr was consistently ranked ahead of Routt.

philfree 03-18-2012 12:45 PM
What I like so far this FA is the fact that Pioli was ready to pounce when players became available.

There was no way we were going to keep Carr from hitting free agency unless we tagged him. Same for Bowe and we chose Bowe. So with free agency looming when Routt was released Pioli jumped on it and signed him. And he got a better deal because he he signed Routt before free agency started. Great move and we got a CB who isn't a significant downgrade if a downgrade at all.

Same with Winston. He was a suprise release and Pioli jumped on him and got the deal done without giving any other teams a chance. And for a good price.

Those signings were really good work by Pioli IMO.

saphojunkie 03-18-2012 11:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 8467471)
This poll asks the question about this free agency period.

I am not satisfied with the overall job that Piol has done as long as Matt Cassel remains the QB.

But my response is based strictly on the question posed.



At the end of the day, I believe the approach to building a team is to build your core through the draft, and to find role players in free agency.

The core was essentially built by the previous regime, with a couple of pieces added by Pioli in the draft in the last couple of years.

Overall, while I agree with the team building approach Pioli has taken, I haven't been overly impressed with the drfat selections he has made.

So, if this poll asks are you happy with the job that Pioli has done overall since he was hired, with Cassel and his drafts, and his prevuious forays into free agency, my answer is a resounding no.

But the question is, are you happy with what Pioli has done in this free agency.

That is what I am responding to, and my answer to that question is yes.
Baldwin
Berry
Moeaki
Hudson
Winston
Houston
Arenas
Lewis

All starters, all pioli. Herm left us some great players, but to say pioli hasn't drafted well is not telling the whole story. Even Tyson Jackson, while. Of worth the #3 pick, is playing well.

Rain Man 03-18-2012 11:36 PM
This is a great question, and tough to answer.

Do I like our additions? Definitely. I think Hillis may emerge as the steal of the offseason, and Winston and Boss fill holes that we've had. I really don't like losing Carr at all, but we at least got a replacement for him, even if it's a bit of a downgrade, and I also really like Arenas as a CB. We also got some depth at safety, which has been a problem.

Quinn? Seems like another good gamble. He may be nothing or he may live up to his potential at long last. If they let him compete for the starting job, it's a win.

So all of that is good. Obviously the bad part is that quarterback is the biggest need and the most important need. Unless Quinn is viewed as "the guy" and is going to compete and win the position, we didn't address this need. For that reason and that reason alone, I'm voting no.

ThaVirus 03-18-2012 11:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.city (Post 8466597)
I'm looking forward to seeing a Hillis meets (insert ILB) in the hole after getting a 4 yard headstart.
Preferably Von Miller..

Quote:
Originally Posted by jd1020 (Post 8467062)
Peyton has nothing left to prove. I wouldn't care about winning either. I'd want to go somewhere where I'd enjoy ending my career.
Like others have said, he still needs to prove that he's not a choker. The new Dan Marino.. And if what they say about his competitiveness with Eli is at all true, he needs to get another ring to snub the "Eli is the better Manning" talk.

CoMoChief 03-18-2012 11:47 PM
I would say that Pioli has done a good job.

However the 2 most important positions on this football team have not been address.

QB and NT.

He's tried w/ Cassel and that plan has miserably failed. He won't ever admit it, and we're going to unfortunately ride that train until it literally flies off of the tracks. Pioli's idea of competition are QB's that don't deserve to start in the NFL, and most likely never will. That's not competition, that's filling a roster spot. Quinn sucks and Stanzi hasn't played enough to really get a grade on how well he's playing, but if you're a betting man you'd think that his lack of playing time would mean it's because he's not ready yet.

This is the 4th season now that we've played in a 34, and we've yet to seriously address the NT position, the most important position on the defense. I'm betting this is what we go after in the draft in the 2nd round. Hope to god we don't reach for Dontario Poe in the 1st. That would be reeruned on all levels. He had a monsterous combine, but that doesn't mean shit. He played like shit in college against sub-par competition. That's what matters.

We have enough great players on defense that they'll be fine. However an entire football team fails or succeeds usually on how well the QB plays, since he touches the ball the most and ultimately leads the team to the endzone. Cassel is garbage. Outside of RG3 and Luck, there isn't any QB in this weak draft that's worth of taking in the 1st rd. I really just wish we'd trade Cassel to Miami. They're starving for a QB now.

buddha 03-18-2012 11:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribal Warfare (Post 8465617)
Missed out on Manning and Soliai which really burns my ass IMO right now KC is breaking even thus far at best.
Yeah, because Manning was dying to come to KC, right TW???

Manning was never an option, and it's far from certain that he has anything worth having even if he was.

Losing Carr was the real gut punch here. I think Routt is lousy, but hopefully we find some help in the draft.

The offensive FA signings have been terrific in my book. I know its very uncool to say something positive on CP, but GREAT JOB SCOTT!

Tribal Warfare 03-19-2012 01:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddha (Post 8470768)
Yeah, because Manning was dying to come to KC, right TW???

Manning was never an option, and it's far from certain that he has anything worth having even if he was.

Losing Carr was the real gut punch here. I think Routt is lousy, but hopefully we find some help in the draft.

The offensive FA signings have been terrific in my book. I know its very uncool to say something positive on CP, but GREAT JOB SCOTT!
Precisely, hence screwed the mother****in pouch!!!!!

mcaj22 03-19-2012 01:59 AM
i consider it a failure based on the fact that out of Bowe and Carr, one walked and the other has yet to even sign the franchise tender. So you are looking at the potential of

A) Bowe holds out all offseason/training camp
B) They don't get a long term deal done/and he's a one year rental
C) This time next year we are in the same boat with Bowe as we were with Carr, and we lose Bowe to a bigger market team.
D) They get a long term deal done/fans are happy.

If Bowe or Carr was locked up long term, I would have considered this offseason a success. (there is still a chance for Bowe, but I am sure they will sit on this long term deal until the season)

Besides Winston, I don't care about any of these spare parts players they signed for cheap depth.

splatbass 03-19-2012 02:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoMoChief (Post 8470763)
Quinn sucks and Stanzi hasn't played enough to really get a grade on how well he's playing, but if you're a betting man you'd think that his lack of playing time would mean it's because he's not ready yet.
My guess (based on gut feeling only) is that Stanzi wasn't ready last year due to the lack of offseason and short preseason, but that Pioli and Crennel think he's going to be the man pretty soon and signed Quinn as a stop gap. So Quinn or Cassel will start the season, but Stanzi will take over when he is ready.


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