Looks like Waino and the Cardinals both want to get a long term deal before the season starts.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseb...21491b32b.html

If we sign Pujols, We don't sign Waino, Molina, Westbrook or extend Craig.

I'm okay if Waino is not a Cy Young calibur pitcher in two years. Who better to teach our young pitchers the right way to pitch at the "big show" level than Waino and I hear Carp is going to hang with the team. Waino has already took Miller under his wing. My uncle the Cardinals coach told me that it really started to click with Miller last season after he spent the weekend with Waino.

Which is why it was a good move to let him walk in FA. It would have screwed us in the long run. Hopefully Beltran has a repeat performance of last season, he helped fill the void of A.P.

You're oversimplifying things.

Which part?

The thought crossed my mind too. Craig in left, Adams at first, Taveras backing up Beltran/Jan for a year. It would be sweet, plus you save some cash for a few years to pay Andrus if you like what you see. It won't happen, because I suspect Holliday is looked at as a player who has already peaked, although they know they likely can't keep Andrus and Profar both happy. Neither wants to play 2nd in their primes.

Pujols' contract was only part of the payroll. Cut out Beltran and Carpenter's contracts in the 2011 offseason and you are at the same base payroll. Same payroll that they absorbed this year with the Molina and Craig extensions already done.

Furthermore, it assumes that it's an impossibility that the Cardinals would have bumped up their payroll to account for the other moves.

There is more than one way to skin the proverbial cat. Either way, **** him, it's over with.

I was for resigning Pujols because he was my favorite Cardinal since Gibson and didn't want to see him in another uniform. But the thought of paying Pujols $30 million a year two years from now would have killed us. The Angles with their BILLION $ TV contract won't miss it at all.

So Motte has elbow issues. Not surprising the way he puts the stress on the elbow. Probably start the season on the DL.

Methany pencils in Boggs as the closer. Boggs was good last year but I just don't trust the guy to be consistent. MAYBE he has matured.

I'm damn glad we have Rosenthal in case Boggs pulls an Izzy/Franklin. Now, that guy I trust but he is more valuable as a starter in the long term.

Matheny. The guy doesn't do meth.

STL Today's 2013 Cardinals Season Preview

Links and text from Derrick Gold

Here is a one-stop list of all of the stories, complete with links:

GREAT EXPECTATIONS, the lead preview
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball ... 2d57a.html

ADAM WAINWRIGHT, talks elbow health, one-team pitchers and BBQ
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball ... 021d2.html

BERNIE MIKLASZ, Cards thinking "now and later"
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/ ... 09bb8.html

MIDDLE MASH, Rick Hummel's look at the middle of the order
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball ... 45abd.html

MATHENY 2.0, What manager expects in his sophomore season
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/ ... dd0ce.html

HUMMEL'S POSITION by POSITION BREAKDOWN
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball ... 8b910.html

THE MUSIAL MODEL, how the Cards have adopted a person-development system within their player-development system
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball ... 3e08d.html

JOE STRAUSS, NL Central is a two-team race
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/ ... 4e493.html

RAISING OSCAR, the program in place to develop Taveras
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball ... a424d.html

FAB FIVE, five other prospects who could impact 2013
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball ... c7400.html

COVER STORY, the explanation behind Chris Lee's dynamic cover photo
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/colu ... b726c.html

That ought to fill a few days of reading. That's the hope. The preview section, with Lee's suitable-for-hanging-up cover, is available at newsstands now in the St. Louis area. Hope you enjoy.

Derrick

http://www.ky3.com/news/chi-lohse-br...edium=facebook

Free agent right-hander Kyle Lohse is signing with the Milwaukee Brewers, according to multiple reports Monday.

Lohse, 34, was 16-3 with a 2.86 ERA and 1.09 WHIP in 33 starts last year for the St. Louis Cardinals.

He had a difficult time finding a team because of the league's new draft pick compensation system. The Brewers have to forfeit the 17th overall pick in the June draft to get Lohse.

Explain this BRC: Brewers forfeit #17 pick, but Cards are reportedly awarded #19. Does that sound right?

Jen Langosch explains it:

http://atmlb.com/ZQHIRc

Can't quite believe the Brewers are willing to do that. Maybe Lohse is taking much less money than he was asking for earlier in the year.

I was thinking that he might be sitting until June, when the MLB draft happens and he no longer costs a pick to sign.

The comp pick will be the 28th pick in the draft. Our pick is now the 20th pick in the draft. Same slot last yesr that we took wacha as comp for pujols.

Shelby is now the #5 SP. Glad to see he won it.

Evidently about 3/$33.

It's a good thing for the near term for the Brewers, without question.

Long-term, it's a win for the Cards.

Me, too. Glad I protected him in my keeper league now.

Eh, if I were a Brewers fan, I'd be pissed.

Lohse was strong in St. Louis after drinking the Dave Duncan koolaid, but how many of those guys have succeeded after leaving St. Louis?

It's a lot of money (though 1/2 of what he was looking for) and a valuable draft chip for a guy who is (relatively) old, has a bad injury history, doesn't strike out hitters, and has been awful outside the Cardinals in his career.

That decision and contract have DM written all over them. Shocked we weren't the dumbasses bending over on this one.

Terrible deal for the Brewers. Far too much compensation for a pitcher who cannot get the swing and miss.

What pitcher has been better when they left the Cardinals? I can't even remember anyone.

The only ones I remember are the ones who fall off a cliff when they leave the Cardinals.

We told ya to keep him.:thumb:

He's got a helluva an upside. I wouldn't be surprised to see him be the 2013 Lynn and win 16 games.

Dan Haren... Steve Carlton... Honestly that's about it.

That's what I'm saying. I'm sure Lohse will fail just as badly as Joel Pineiro, Jeff Weaver, et. al.

Only problem is he got more money than any of them AND cost a draft pick. If I'm a Brew-crew fan, I'm incensed.

Jeff Fassero, Chris Perez, Chris Narveson...yeah, not many.

BTW, posted the team he's part of in the fantasy forum. I think I'm going to cruise to the league title.

24 starters (15 hitters, 9 pitchers) + 10 bench players. 12 teams. I have:

Mike Trout
Matt Kemp
Robinson Cano
Bryce Harper
Allen Craig
Troy Tulowitzki
Ian Kinsler
Chris Sale
Matt Moore
Jordan Zimmermann

among others (Shelby, of course).

Carlton was a different era. He had the nerve to ask for a $5K raise after winning 20 games. Gussie said get rid of him.

Haren and Perez were trades. BAD trades but still trades. We didn't let them walk. We thought we were getting a fair deal for them. :mad:

Thank you, Doug Melvin.

The Cardinals provide me with an interesting perspective: how a competent sports franchise operates.

What makes it funnier: ChiefsCountry compared Alex Smith to Kyle Lohse.

:cuss:Hamas we get to enjoy at least one well run team and you bring the incompetence of our other team into here? If we suck this year, I'm blaming you.:p

Jerry Reuss, Mike Torrez, Mike Cuellar, Jim Bibby. Used to be a lot more common when Busch was a tightwad.

Oscar Taveras 4 for 5 yesterday, looks like he makes the club at least until Beltran's toe is healed.

That would start his clock early. I wouldn't be surprised to see him come up in the summer instead.

If Beltran's toe isn't ready, you start Adams at 1b and Craig in RF and give Taveras every day ABs in the minors. Or you put Descalso in RF.

There's just no reason to rush the kid to the majors yet.

Craig is too slow to be an outfielder after his leg break. If he's the best player available, the only reason not to put him out there is financial.

Maturity.

There have been no concerns about his ability, but there have been some rumblings about him being a little too 'showy'. Now the confidence is a good thing, but for a franchise that just got done watching their last premium prospect flame out because of a crap wortk ethic and entitlement issues, they would be wise to make very sure that they aren't going to have a similar problem with young Oscar.

And yeah, financial does matter.

Moreover, I'm not wholly convinced that Tavares is the best hitter available. Folks - Matt Adams can hit. Look at his minor league track record. There's a very convincing argument to be made that he's a better major league hitting prospect than Oscar Tavares is right now.

Craig's broken leg hasn't greatly impacted his speed and he was never a burner to begin with. He'll be fine in RF and in the interim, it could help us establish a legitimate trade market for Adams; hopefully enough to fill the gaping hole we have at SS.

Could always send him back down when Beltran is ready to go. It's about service days, not when you come up. If he spent April in St. Louis, as long as he spent all of May down in Memphis, it would be the same as leaving him down for all of April, in terms of his arbitration clock.

Of course, I think Taveras is going to hit so well that it would be almost impossible to demote him again once he's in the bigs.

The other risk is that Taveras gets hurt and has to spend some time on the DL while he's on the big club... in that case, all the time he spends on the DL counts towards his clock.

Taveras absolutely cannot be a bench player - period. Not even a '4th OFer'.

He has to play every day. Moreover, his defensive instincts aren't great, so he needs to be playing every day where we intend to play him in the future. He can't be a guy that shifts around in the OF to cover for days off.

If the kid's going to be the superstar we hope he can be, then he needs to be playing his position every day and getting regular ABs against guys with quality breaking pitches and an understanding of when to use them. Sure, when Beltran's hurt that could be in St. Louis - but as soon as Beltran's back, I don't care if he's batting 1.000 - he's probably not a CFer, Beltran' certainly isn't a CFer and I'm fairly sure we won't be benching Carlos. As such, he'll need to go back down.

Why put him on the Memphis shuttle at that point? Play Adams at 1b and Craig in RF and call it a day.

Carpenter in the OF is no longer an option, however, as Freese was placed on the DL today.

The maturity issues are overblown. Same thing was said about Pujols in 2001 when they didn't want him in the bigs yet, then Bonilla got hurt and the hand was forced.

I'm not convinced the maturity issues are overblow. I suspect your response to this question is the same as it would've been had we asked it about Rasmus - nobody ever wants to accept the fact that a kid is acting like a kid until it bites them in the ass.

That said, even assuming they are overblown - why are we so quick to state that he's the best option for this team right now?

Sure, he had a great season in AA. Fantastic - when Matt Adams was in AA, his was just as good. More critically, Matt Adams then went to AAA and got even better last season. 18 bombs in 258 ABs to go with a .986 OPS and a .329 BA is filthy. That's world-class power paired with outstanding bat control.

Additionally, as Adams has already started his service clock, there's no loss of team control by brining him north to start the year and playing him every day.

Next, compare their respective springs. Matt Adams has had a better one and against better pitching (pitcher quality index of 8.3 for Taveras, 8.8 for Adams). Better OBP, better SLG%, better at driving runs in - he's just flat been a better hitter than Taveras.

Finally - we aren't trading Taveras but we might trade Adams. If we hope to really get a haul for him, we need to establish his value against major league hitters - we can't do that from the bench.

This organization is better served in both the near term and long term to start Matt Adams at 1b and Allen Craig in RF to begin the year. It's helps a great deal financially by retaining the year of team control. It helps from a trade-value perspective by pumping up Adams value a bit. It helps from a pure production standpoint by putting the more polished and powerful hitter on the field to make up for the loss of Beltran and Freese. And all of that sets aside any ounce of 'maturity' concerns, though I would be very reticent to so quickly dismiss them.

It's just the right move to make.

By the way, Beltran's playing today, so it seems pretty likely that the Cards are going to try to 'rest' Beltran through his toe injury. That's not how I want Taveras breaking into the majors.

If they were going to DL him, they wouldn't be playing him so they could back-date the DL stint. They must have liked what they saw in the minor league games.

What's wrong with Freese?

Sore tailbone.

Seriously?

:shake:

Cards-Mets on ESPN right now,Wainright on the mound.

KOLR10 KOZL ‏@kolr10kozl
Freese to Begin Season on the DL http://dlvr.it/37sjy2 #sgf #mo #ozarks

He fell into the dugout chasing a foul ball in spring training. It was our dugout. Why didn't anyone catch the guy? Anyone see the play?

If they start Taveras this year its highly likely they are going to trade him. No way they give up a year of control for a couple of months of baseball.

Kozma settled under him but thought the infield fly rule would bail him out again and whiffed on the catch.

By all means - explain to me what makes you think that Matt Adams isn't presently a better major league hitter than Taveras.

Adams is a masher. If he started this year he'd hit 30 HRs and bat .280. Taveras won't do that (likely a higher average but 15-20 HR power).

He will someday, sure, but he doesn't have raw power that Adams does and his greatest strength - the ability to make steady hard contact while being aggressive, is also a strength that Adams has. And for their careers, Taveras will certainly be much better as Adams' body type will dictate that his swing slows down sooner than Oscar's.

But that's not the question - the question is what you see in Oscar Taveras that would make him a better hitter than Matt Adams today.

It's certainly debatable, but Adams can only play 1 position; at least Taveras can play all 3 outfield positions.

It doesn't mean they'll trade him. It could mean that they'll eventually work out deals similar to the ones that guys like Pedroia and Youkilis signed shortly after establishing themselves as good, young ballplayers. If you lock a player up early enough (like we did with Waino and Yadi some time ago before their recent expiration) you'll pay more in the initial years while saving significantly down the road, likely keeping them away from FA for at least two years.

Most of those deals you only get one year maybe two past the years the team controls their movements.

If Taveras is as advertised, in 6 years he will want a Pujols sized contract. and the Cardinals will not be in any better financial situation to give him $250-$300 million.

Which is why you try to extend him at the end of year two, thus buying up his age 28-30 years at a discount, and then let some rube like Artie Moreno overpay for his decline years.

Fox Sports gives the love to the Cardinals
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/s...aseball-032613

a interesting part of the article
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For us, we have so many players that have come up together. And not only did they come up together, but they experienced success along the way. When they got to the big leagues, they expected that.”

It’s true. When I asked Craig about this phenomenon one day this spring, he suggested Game 6 of the 2011 World Series — one of the best games in any of our lifetimes — had some roots in a postseason event that probably wasn’t on your radar: the 2009 Pacific Coast League finals between the Memphis Redbirds and Sacramento River Cats.


The Redbirds’ lineup in that series included three players — Jay, Craig and Freese, a 2007 trade acquisition — who have become essential everyday players in St. Louis. Descalso and Boggs had significant roles on the team, too. And the Game 1 pitcher against Sacramento was Jaime Garcia, who started twice in the World Series for La Russa two years later. “We were the youngest team in the league — by far,” Jay recalled. “We all started off slow. Then we figured it out.”

Naturally, Memphis swept Sacramento in three.

“We were stacked,” Craig said. “That’s one thing we took pride in, winning that league championship in 2009. Then in the World Series, you look and I was in left, Jay was in center, and Daniel was at third for the final out. Freeser was in the game, too, and obviously did what he did. That’s one of the things that made the World Series extra special.


“We all had a common goal, to get to the big leagues. It wasn’t like we were trying to fight each other to get there. We just came up together as a group. We’d talk about it. We didn’t get presumptuous, but it was always like, ‘When we get to the big leagues, we want to do great things. We want to win.’ We always just fought for that opportunity and talked through things. We’ve gone a long way as a collective group.”


Notice the number of times the word “we” appeared in that quotation. It’s the sort of thing a high school or college coach would love. It also works. Whether the Cardinals’ players have great makeup (scouting term) or understand the process (nerdy jargon), the idea is the same: They get it. And the winning ethic of the Cardinals’ homegrown core — with a major assist from Carlos Beltran — explains how they were able to lose La Russa and Albert Pujols after winning the 2011 World Series and finish with close to the same record last year.


Craig believes the cohesion created in Memphis — and the minor-league stops before — “absolutely” has influenced the way the present-day Cardinals respond to October pressure. Jay sensed the same connectedness in the dugout before the ninth inning of the decisive Game 5 in Washington last year. The Nationals led, 7-5, before the tying and winning singles by Descalso and Kozma, respectively — each with two out.

5 years, $97.5 million for Wainwright.

Jesus. Think we may have overpaid.

Certainly did.

That said, I think they're leaning on cost-controlled excellence from Miller, Rosenthal, Wacha and Martinez to weather the last couple of years of WWs and Molina's contracts.

This isn't a smart economic deal at all, IMO. He needs to prove he's back to 2010 form before he's worth that, but we gave him the deal just assuming that he will.

I don't like it. At the same time, I do like the idea of my favorite current Cardinal being a cardinal for life.

If you want to live up to the first part of your user name and extract every drop of financial value out of every transaction, you can certainly make that case.

Nevertheless, I don't believe that it's anathema to slightly overpay your guys who have been good soldiers, dependable players and great teammates. If anything, I think it sets a good example for the rest of the locker room, and it's an entirely different notion than dropping the same bank for a player as a FA.

Ironically enough, despite my hate for Pioli and all things Patriot, there is some merit to the idea of a winning culture. Where Pioli got it wrong was in the assumption that old brokedicks, locker room snitches, and Gestapo tactics is what made it. It's not. It comes from having guys like Tom Brady, Chris Carpenter, and Adam Wainwright.

Look at what the latter two did for our young pitchers this offseason. There's real value in that that can never be measured on a Fangraphs page of what the player would receive in a FA market where everyone is overpaid as a consequence of the market's inherent irrationality.

What the **** was that for?

And I do understand the skepticism on the deal as Wainwright will be 33 in 2014. How many 33 year old pitchers are worth that today?

Dude, come on man.:shake:
I'm okay with the contract because he brings that intangible that doesn't show up in any box score. He is a die hard Cardinal. Talks constantly about the way that Cardinal pitchers behave, work out, help each other etc. He walked the walk. After Miller spent the weekend with him last year, he turned over a new leaf and now he is prospering again.

These young pitching studs need a great example of how to pitch at the major league level. How to train to stay at the big league level. How to maintain that fire to win.

When I went to the Atlanta playoff game last year, Waino was all over the practice field and during batting practice talking, joking with players and small groups. They all seem to listen and joke around with him. It was as obvious as it could be that he was viewed with respect by his teammates.

Waino is a leader that everyone respects. I'm damn glad I don't have to see another one of my favorite players in another uniform. That curveball to Beltran, I got to see him win a World Series for my team in person. Damn glad he is a Cardinal for life.:clap:

It was an intentionally off-color, tongue-in-cheek joke. JR isn't a rabbi.

Nor Jewish. Surprisingly (to most) two of my favorite posters on this site are Frazod and Hamas.

No offense taken from me.

I was 99.5% sure you weren't Jewish either. I always thought you were Mr. Plow.

That was my old Gamertag that I used to have in my sig, name was already taken here.

So... if Motte is out an extended amount of time, do you guys think Rosenthal is eventually given the closer's role? I know Boggs has had some success, but he doesn't seem like the slam-dunk guy Rosenthal could be.

I'm Jewish, but that's me being a bit too sensitive.

I could see them giving Rosenthal the Wainwright 2006 treatment. Start him in low leverage situations, ultimately moving him up the ladder.

He's got the best stuff in the pen by far. That said, Boggs has better stuff than Motte, and he'll likely look unstoppable at times, but he has mental blocks that really, really scare me at times. Still, his BB rate has gone down every year, but his K rate isn't as high as his at-times wipeout slider would suggest. Some of that is b/c he also has a two-seamer.

Motte's biggest problem is that you can run up his pitch counts by just fouling off his fastball, and since his secondary pitch has never been much more than average, it also leads to some hairy moments.

I was going for the Chappelle route of making fun of the term by using it sardonically. I haz failed, obviously.

You're still my bro, bruh.

I've seen Rams Fan in his ****ing office spinning a menorah.

Rosenthal is definitely on the same path as Wainwright. Leverage him in non pressure situations. Promote to 8th inning. When the closer falters move him into the closer role for this year.

His true path in the Big Show is a starter.

How do Royal fans feel about a talented local KC kid not being drafted by the Royals?

Rosenthal's a groomed starter.

Sure, he kicked ass out of the pen last year, but he has a starter's arsenal and #1 ceiling. Let him start until he fails. DO NOT pigeonhole the guy into the closer role.

Besides, Carlos Martinez may or may not be able to handle a starters workload and has nastier stuff than Rosenthal even.

Cleto. Keep a very very close eye on Cleto. He can't be a starter; he's never figured out a passable 3rd pitch. However, he's slowly developed passable fastball command and it's a fastball that can be devastating.

There's a kid that you try to groom into a closer if for no other reason than he has no chance to succeed as a starter. He's clearly not ready yet, but he's built all the way up to a 3/1 K/BB ratio and a K rate well above a strikeout/inning. He's still extremely young and it wouldn't take much of a step forward in his age 24 season to be a truly outstanding bullpen weapon at age 25.

Motte wasn't able to establish himself in the bigs until 27 (obviously starting at catcher is why) and he's carved a nice career for himself. Time is still on Cleto's side and he's showing legitimate progress.

Don't sleep on the guy - he's not a write off by any means.

Don't really know why everyone is counting Motte out. Doesn't seem like he'll miss all that much time, unless there's been more developments recently.

I'm not counting him out - but he's not going to be here in 3 seasons. After this 2 year deal expires, the Cards aren't going to pony up big FA $$ to retain him, IMO. They can't.

So I'm mostly looking to 2015. Motte's going to be just fine this season and next.

He won't be here after 2 years. We don't know the extent of his elbow issues and his mechanics isn't exactly fluid. If he would just throw that slider with more confidence and often.....

But, he is our closer for the next two years.

Slider is the worst pitch on your elbow, FWIW.

I'd rather have Trevor Rosenthal than Bubba Starling, but that's hindsight based (also isn't like they're the same draft class).

I can't give them too much shit on Rosenthal. He was a JUCO SS who had pitched 5 or 6 innings total when the Cards' scout noticed him. Just a case of right place, right time, I think.

ESPN gives the love to the Cardinals and Rosenthal.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/preview13/sto...y-do-all-mound

Yeah it doesn't look like a Pujols mistake. The Royals scouted Pujols like 5 times and 300 players later the Cardinals took him. He couldn't have looked good to have 300 players go in front of him. But the Royals should have gambeled on the local kid.

Looks like the only reason we have Rosenthal is one scout in the Cardinals that happen to be at the game scouting someone else. The scout heavily advocated for the unknown pitcher. That man deserves a raise and the Royals front office is off the hook on this pick.

Yup.

I love pitchers that feature a fastball/curveball/changeup 3-pitch mix. It's as durable an arsenal as you'll find.

Then again, Waino blew out his elbow, so what the !@#$ do I know?

By far Lynn's best outing of the spring today; and good to see Ryan Jackson make the club, if only temporarily.