I hope he's in a wheel chair for the rest of his life.

Well, not really. BUT!

The Chiefs learned this lesson the hard way, avoided it, and got a better player in the process.

Master GMing.

It definitely makes sense what they did, especially with that in mind. They had to give up a lot for Clark for sure though and pay him a lot.

Healthier? Check.

Younger? Check.

More complete player? Check.

More intense competitor? Check.

More technically skilled? Check.

It’s Ws all the way around.

Cost?

Too much, but whatever. They view him as the 2nd best edge rusher in the NFL. Hope they're right.

Yeah, pretty much where i'm at with it.

It's a big swing, but if they're right, it could end up being awesome.

Are you for real right now?

**** Dee Ford.

Frank Clark cost a first rounder and a monster contract.

That thread you started yesterday about the salary cap issues? Yeah, losing a cheap first round contract and replacing it with a monster contract are a reason there could be an issue.

If Clark is an unreal player, it doesn't matter, but it doesnt' reduce the cost.

Yeah. I would've rather had Dee Ford at his current contract and the top rookie CB on the Chiefs board at 29. Ah well.

Maybe. I don't know.

If they feel Ford is about to really break down, they were right to pull the chute.

My biggest issue is that they just can't keep operating with no first round picks and then have their 2nd rounders be dog shit.

Kpass and Speaks need to do something pretty quickly.

This defense BADLY needed a complete overhaul and a new attitude.

Bringing back Ford with his injury history, his suckage against the run and his overall demeanor would have been a bad idea. The Chiefs would have spent years and millions on a brokedick, while maybe gettings one or two okay seasons out of him.

Bringing in Frank Clark was the right move. He's younger, better, and will CHANGE the tone of that defense. Brings a completely different energy and attitude to this defense that was BADLY needed. Anyone who has watched the absolute apathetic attitude of our defense over the last several years should know this. No guts, no heart.

Clark ALL DAY, EVERY DAY over Dee Ford.

Frank Clark is worth the contract, the pick and the eventual Super Bowl win. No one will give a shit about his contract (or the pick) in a couple years.

Again, I don't disagree that Clark isn't or wont' be a really good player.

But the margin is really slim to get any type of value there, so he pretty much has to be an elite ass kicker from day one.

The only thing you had to do to get a new attitude on defense is put a bullet into Suttons dumb ****ing face. You can tell from both players still on the team and those that have moved on that no one bought into his shitty scheme.

Obviously, that's what the FO is counting on.

You don't trade 1st round picks (even late ones) for developmental guys.

The clear expectation is immediate, positive impact.

FAX

**** you, Dee Ford
 

The salary cost between the two players is fairly small. Ford’s contract is structured to be easier to get away from, but I’m not convinced he would taken the same deal from KC.

The draft capital cost is not negligible, but they did manage to upgrade their 2019 #3, and will still have the 49ers #2 for 2020.

Clark is going to add a big edge/attitude to this squad, which it needed. The Chiefs will still have a second round pick as a result of the two moves and it will in all likelihood be the higher of the two.

End of the day, the ledger is:

+ Frank Clark
+ 8 spots in 2019 3rd round
+ 20 spots in 2020 second round

- Dee Ford
- 2-3 million AAV, flexibility to cut player at no cost
- 2019 #30
- 2019 #6x

Ford got 20.5 gtd.

That's a bit different than Clark.

I doubt he'd have taken that deal here, but it's not that small

That's what i'm saying though, you don't just need immediate positive impact. You need ass kicker impact.

Like, near Khalil Mack impact.

Now they seem to think that's what he can bring, so hopefully they're right.

Awful.

Dee Ford is injured garbage.

Dee Ford is probably still lined up offsides

**** that guy

In terms of yearly AAV is what I was referencing.

The structures work out more differently than. I was thinking. I had 5/95 in my head for ford’s potential overall payday when it’s 5/85.

Clark, as structured, actually saves them $8 million against the cap this season.

He’s 6-6.5 more the next two years, before the window to cut him opens.

They both can be walked away from after their age 29 seasons.

It's more to do with pick #29 that we gave up.

Very slim chance that pick has even remotely close to the immediate impact Clark does. The time is now.

Considering it would've almost certainly used to take the top CB on our board and how bad the CB group looks this year I think the pick would've helped.

Not to mention both of our starting CBs are most likely gone after this season when there's no cap room left to sign them.

The money you paid Clark has to factor in the value you missed out on by giving away the first as well.

It was a big package for Clark. It needs to work.

Do I want to pay a little less for a Ferrari that’s always broken down or more for a Mack truck that’s going to get work done?

No you hope it would have.

The two corners we were looking at slipped into the 2nd round in a weak draft. LJ Collier went at pick 29, a guy most felt was a late 2nd at best, went 29th. That should tell you all you need to know of the value there.

https://overthecap.com/player/frank-clark/3911/

Not really getting away from Clark until the age 30 year it looks like.

Not as much as having a legitimate DE who can be the centerpiece of the pressure scheme.

DeAndre Baker, Rock Ya Sin, etc. are not immediate impact CBs. And even if they were, if you aren’t pressuring the QB even good CBS will look awful.

With the info we've heard from Veach, I'm pretty sure CB was gonna be the pick at 29.

I'd rather have a pass rusher but you've gotta factor in the money and other value stuff.

They really need one of these developmental CB's to hit and get some value there.

For the price they are paying for Clark, you need him to be the 2nd best defender in the league.

That's a pretty tall task

Oh I know it would’ve been Ya-Sin or Murphy, but those guys slipping to the 2nd while Collier went 29th means those guys likely were not 1st round talents, and that makes it all the more unlikely we would’ve gotten an immediate impact.

The cap savings become a net positive before his age 29 year. Eating $10 million of dead cap isn’t ideal, but if he has gotten hurt or fallen way off the cliff it could be done.

When is CP going to turn "Dee Ford" into this -> Raiduhs

So a guy going in the 2nd means they weren't first round talents?

No, you “need” him to be an elite edge rusher and help lead this team to a SB.

Yea considering there are never 32 first round talents in any draft and this one was particularly weak.

That’s clearly how 32 teams felt, or at least the majority of them. That’s what I’m trying to say.

Not to mention the teams picking 29-32 had absolutely no need for a CB and the guys we wanted went 33 and 34. Odd reasoning.

So Chris Jones wasn't a first round talent?

I thought he was, just like I thought Murphy was.

Jones would’ve went in the 1st in this draft. That was one of the deepest DL drafts ever and a damn good draft overall. This draft was nowhere near as good.

Sure. We also see guys taken in the 2nd every year provide pretty immediate impact.

I'm not sure I'd have been that excited about either of those CB's to be honest though either.

But according to your rhetoric, 32 NFL teams didn't think he was.

I did like Murphy though too, kinda forgot about him.

They clearly didn’t think he was. That doesn’t mean he 100% wasn’t. I’m not talking in absolutes here buddy. I’m not saying that Murphy or Ya-Sin can’t be. I’m saying it’s unlikely.

Eh, if guys are going picks 33 and 34, i'd say teams had them pretty much as first rounders. It's a semantical argument anyway so it's W/E.

Clark is supposed to be a cornerstone....

Apparently you missed my point about this being a particularly weak draft when there are almost never 32 first round talents in any draft according to the pros. This draft ****ing sucked at the top and it was well known, are you forgetting that now?

It’s pretty obvious that at the very least the majority of the league did not see those guys as 1st round talents. You can argue with me all you want, but you’re wrong per usual.

Sure, weak draft and all.

All teams talked about was how you could get starters thru the what, 3rd round?

But those guys won't be immediate contributors because they were taken with picks 33 and 34 yet i'm guessing you're gonna say a guy like Thornhill will be because?

The draft was top heavy then dropped off pretty quickly after about, pick 5?

I'm no Bosa fan, but he was pretty highly thought of, along with Williams and the dude from Kentucky.

The Chiefs obviously weren't that high on any of those CB's otherwise they probably don't make the Clark deal.

Or they were just that high on Clark, which I'm thinking was the deal.

Dude, I didn’t say they won’t. I’ve said multiple times that it’s unlikely. Do you ****ing read? And let’s not pretend that there’s not a huge difference in corners and safeties. We’re talking about arguably the most difficult position to transition to in the NFL outside of QB.

I asked you why you don't think those guys will contribute early? Wasn't making a statement

Why is corner the most difficult outside of QB? I'd say DL would be above that and maybe WR, but more so because they come in so raw these days.

This discussion can go on forever, but bottom line; if the Chiefs choosing Frank Clark over Dee Ford helps contribute to them winning a Super Bowl in the next couple years, then NO ONE will give a shit about the choice and the price paid.

That's really all this comes down to.

Yep.

I wouldn't have kept Ford either way.

Part of this Clark deal is that multiple high picks that were supposed to be cornerstones, didn't work out and then the old cornerstones got shipped out, something had to be done.

After Ford wasn't what they wanted and Peters got shipped out of town with the fall offs of Houston and Berry, something had to be done.

How often are there good rookie corners? Jessie Bates and Justin Reid both had good rookie years. How many good rookie corners were there taken outside of the 1st?

And I said arguably. Reading comprehension issues? It’s either corner or DL. Meanwhile, safety is probably one of the easier ones.

The Peters thing was really killer. Just losing a player that productive at that spot.

It is what it is.

Ok, and I was "arguing" it.

I'd say RB and LB would be the easier ones. I think safety is somewhere in the middle, just because of all they're asked to do now is more difficult than just playing CF.

Lol I love how you can’t take the heat when I call you out on being a ****ing moron, but you just love arguing with me.

You said it yourself that you wouldn’t have been confident in either of those guys starting. So what the **** are you arguing about?

I’ll ask again, how often do you see good rookie corners outside of the 1st? Very rarely. Hence “unlikely” to get an immediate impact from 2 corners that weren’t 1st round talents in weak draft.

I'd have been fine with Murphy, think he could have done it pretty early.

My main point was just the value of one of them hitting and becoming a good player, while on a rookie deal, is worth a lot. You aren't getting that value with Clarks deal.

And I don't really pay any attention to you calling me out for being a moron. Just kinda skim past it.

Literally one page ago:

I know you’re full of shit, because I actually really liked Murphy unlike you and I wouldn’t have expected anywhere close to the impact of a guy like Frank Clark from a rookie corner taken late in the 1st.

That’s all I’m saying. I liked Murphy and Ya-Sin. That doesn’t mean they were going to come in an be good corners right alway because that’s extremely rare.

I said "I'm not sure"

Meaning I don't know how I would have felt, would have had to have looked into them more.

Can't you read?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">In this week&#39;s Stacking The Box <br><br>- Personnel men tell you which players are about to break out<br>- Why Andrew Luck&#39;s calf is becoming very worrisome<br>- Why the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Chargers?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Chargers</a> should move Melvin Gordon<br>- Why Don Banks will be missed by so, so many<a href="https://t.co/8RxpxB6GnU">https://t.co/8RxpxB6GnU</a></p>&mdash; Matt Verderame (@MattVerderame) <a href="https://twitter.com/MattVerderame/status/1158407315801829376?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 5, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Apparently a lot of the league viewed Thornhill as a first rounder and he's having a good camp. Chiefs are def high on him.

I'm kind of out on this Verdarame guy as well. He seems to maybe get some info sometimes, but he kinda puts out stuff that's already out there. I'm not sure.

Yes I can read. You went from “not sure” about them period to “think he could have done it pretty early”. That was quick. Must’ve looked into them in between posts. Considering most corners don’t “do it pretty early”, sounds like it really gave you some confidence in Murphy too.

I think he could have done it early, but I'm not sure. Seems to fit.

I don't know that he could have been a Peters type guy early, maybe a little better in coverage but no the turnover type obviously.

Looking at rookies from last years 2nd in terms of CB, Maybe a Josh Jackson type? Not great but decent?

Lol yea ok. You’re full of shit dude.

Even DJ said it back when the draft process was going on. The likelihood of drafting a corner at 29 that even would’ve been as good as Nelson was low. I’m sure you agreed with him at the time, but now here you are.

He was so decent there was talk about him moving to safety.

Sure, but even a guy as good as Nelson to start would have had value because you'd have 5 years of pretty cheap play for that.

I don't think you're getting a star at CB at 29, especially in his first year. Maybe he develops into Byron Jones (who was taken in that area) eventually, but it's not all about that first year.

That's my argument here. It's fine that they did what they did, I get it. But Clark has to be an ass kicker, right now, and for a while for them to come out even equal.

You were a Nelson fan anyway, why wouldn't you want another one of those?

Awuzie was another 2nd rounder that was pretty solid early (when he wasn't hurt).

T'redavious White was a late first rounder that was good early.

A lot would have depended on coaching (pretty much a big factor in any rookie having a good season no matter the position).

Also, dunno if you meant to say something different but those 2 are safeties.

Yea that was my point. It’s a lot more common with safeties. Ronnie Harrison was another one last year. That’s 3 in one class that weren’t 1st rounders. You can’t even find one corner outside the 1st in the last few years that was a good rookie.

Awuzie started 6 games his rookie year. What a HUGE impact!

White is literally the only guy you can give me and he was a 1st rounder. Point made.

I was not a Nelson “fan”. I said he didn’t suck nearly as bad as CP thought he did. I defended him. If I were a fan, I wouldn’t have been so quick to say let him walk giving the need at the position. He was a decent 3rd round pick that we got some value out of for a couple years. That’s it.

If you think drafting another Nelson at 29 was better than getting an elite edge rusher, you’re dumber than I thought.

White was taken at 27 and Murphy at 33

I figure that’s more comparable than a corner taken late 2nd

If Nelson is the guys ceiling, sure it would be dumb

But if that’s his baseline and he could develop into a Byron Jones type player for a cheap 5 years there is a value discussion

Again, my whole thing is about value and cap dollars.

That’s where I was too. He’s better than he was given credit. Then I figured out what he was going to make. Later dude.

But I never said it doesn’t happen. I said it doesn’t happen often and is unlikely. The chances are slim that Murphy turns out as good as White, let alone has a rookie season like he did.

And about the Nelson thing, if you’re going to talk about ceilings, I’m not going to disagree. That’s not what we’re talking about though. We’re talking about the immediate impact of a guy like Clark versus a rookie corner on a team that’s trying to win a SB this year, not next.

Well, yeah, you're for sure gonna have more immediate impact with a current player, unless something unforeseen happens.

But it also wouldn't have been straight across. You'd have had more money to play with to bring in another pass rusher or something (although not as good of a player as Clark, likely).

You may have had Murphy or whoever at 29. Yeah, they probably aren't gonna be Deion year 1, but I'm not sure the "all in this year" strategy is the best way to go about it.