I was just adding to yours.

And the 49ers are going to have fun when Bosa wants a new deal.

No matter what your cap looks like, it will be imperative to draft well and find value in trades/FA.

Veach has done a nice job doing that in 2 years. If he keeps doing that at a functional level, we’ll be fine.

Think of the Steelers over the years. Not much going on from them in FA aside from smaller moves. Heavy emphasis on the draft.

I think that’s a model for us to use.

Ah. I'm too dumb to read.

It will be cheap to cut Garoppolo at that point, which is what they might want to do.

That will make the math easier. :D

I'd love to keep Jones but i think its realistic to think he gets traded for a first and a third. I also think Spags will generate interior pressure the same way he always did prior to jones, roll a DE over to DT and send him.

After reading all the back and forth on Jones, it seems everyone wants him to play with the Chiefs but don't want to be in Cap Hell over it.

I would argue that Solomon Thomas is not a tough decision to make.

6 career sacks for the 3rd overall pick. That’s an easy decision to make. Buh bye.

It all depends on what they have at DT at that point and what he wants for a contract.

if the RB Dobbins from Ohio State is at pick #32 the chiefs need to draft him.

Looks like the Spirit of Eric Berry will likely be a top 10 cap hit for the Chiefs in 2020. Just a little reminder of how big money contracts can sometimes bite you in the ass and not let go for a few years.

If he checks out medically, I prefer Swift. He is more elusive and catches the ball cleaner. I’m not seeing RB as a priority pick at #32, but these guys arguably could be the BPA at that pick depending how the board falls.

Why does everyone keep saying next year? It is this year as we are in 2020.

No we don't. Not at all. We do not need to draft a RB until day 3 if we draft one at all.

I'm currently in "we won the Super Bowl!" mode, not "we're fighting to get to the Super Bowl" mode. Therefore, the 2020 year is still "next year." :)

Also, to get technical about it, the 2020 league year doesn't start until March 18th.

If berry comes back into the league next season does that help get rid of our cap failure

also RE: Next year

The official start of the 2020 NFL year is March 18 when free agency kicks off.

Unfortunately, no. The $8m is his prorated signing bonus, and we can't take that back, nor will another team signing him affect that.

That win lasted a few days. Not even a week before I was in the mode to see us try and do it again.
And the "technical" part makes me think of people that work over nights and say "It is not the next day until after I have been to sleep".

Upgrading the interior OL will be more beneficial to the running game than grabbing a RB early.

Williams, Thompson, and a rookie RB with a better interior OL is more than good enough when you have Mahomes and Reid.

Williams, Williams, Thompson, McGuire would definitely be more effective with an improved OL.

the Oilers still won the cup after trading Gretzky.

Monti

Now that we’ve already won a super bowl I personally feel less desperate to have to run out there in 2020 and win it again. Of course it would be nice to win again in 2020 and I hope it happens, but I’m more concerned now with maintaining the long term health of the roster. Instead of trying to load up again in 2020 at the expense of potential future talent and depth, I’d rather make the moves needed to stockpile talent/depth long term. So as much as I’d love to have Chris Jones, unless he takes $15 million a year I don’t see how you can sink $40 million+ a year into two players on the DL. Assuming we can capitalize on the draft capital and not take another Breeland Speaks, adding a 1st and 3rd and maybe even trading out of our current 1st round pick for additional picks gives us a lot of ammunition to fill out the roster. We already haven’t had a 1st round pick since 2017 and we have a lot of free agents, leaving us in a position where the depth and/or talent on the roster at certain positions could become perilously thin. Going from a single pick in rounds 1, 2, & 3 to a 1st, two 2nd, two 3rd, two 4th, etc. plus the cap savings from not adding a $20 million a year contract that can be spread among several positions/players IMO helps more in the long run than a single player not named Mahomes.

FWIW, Louis Riddick said on ESPN today that Jones was a guy that the Chiefs were “desperately trying to re-sign” right now.

Also said if he did somehow hit the market, he should be maybe the top free agent on the market for teams to go after.

I’ve come to the conclusion that you pay Chris Jones. Dude is ****ing 25 and just hitting his peak. You don’t let those players go. We need to stop acting like we can’t afford it. There are ways to maneuver the cap. Dude was a trooper and showed up to camp because Veach told him that he would work on a new deal. Jones held up his end of the deal....now you pay the man.

Fair point. I guess here's the problem with my logic:

There are only a handful of interior beasts who rush the passer. Having an OG who can shut that down will only matter in 3-4 games, if that, barring injury.

Whereas if you HAVE one of those beasts, you have that value in 19 games, barring injury.

So, there's the disconnect. I get it.

But, if you gave me the option of sacking the other team's QB or never having Mahomes sacked, I'll keep Mahomes upright. If we had a "no sack" game in the playoffs, I'm betting HARD on Mahomes winning that shootout.

as someone who hated the contracts of Berry, Houston, Maclin,Tamba and DJ extensions, etc... I still say you keep Jones and cut whatever bums equal in cap value. (Watkins, LDT Sorenson, whomever.) No matter what combo of players you assemble with that 20 million, they wont be close to Chris Jones.

Forget Pat and Gracie, she needs to starting Jones so he takes a team friendly deal!

I don't want to go into cap hell in two years, either. And trading your player for high picks is not letting them get away. It's using your capital wisely to better your team.

I don't think people realize how close the offensive line is to falling off the cliff. Chris Jones is an absolute beast, and I love him, but it's just irresponsible to have two players on the DL making $100M. That's thinking with your heart and not your mind.

There's a chance it happens, but were I GM it'd be the last option just before letting him walk for nothing but a comp pick.

So since the CBA is expiring and it is common knowledge, belief, that the cap will go up dramatically after that and that there might be a separate provisioned area for QBs, we should be able to pay Jones and Mahomes.

If those player/players that you draft work out, which generally doesn't happen right away and in lots of cases doesn't happen at all.

The problem is that it's not GUARANTEED that it will go up dramatically, so it's hard to give out huge contracts with the possibility it could hamstring us.

But then, that's also why these discussions are hard - we just don't know the constraints.

This reasoning is emotional, and therefor I do not trust it.

I know you all WANT to keep Jones, and it might happen. If it does, great. I will be happy to cheer for him. But make no mistake, it is not the most prudent move.

In a game massively affected by injury, you are tying a TON of capital up in the health of one man. If you trade for a 1st and two 3rds (a la Jared Allen), plus have $15M to spend on free agents (after paying your new 1st rounder), then you might potentially have 5 or 6 players who can START for this team. That is a significant diversification of risk, as well as a significant diversification of potential.

If you sign Jones, you are guaranteed one elite player. If you trade him, you have the potential to have an elite player at multiple positions.

Yep.

Kelce
Hill
Hunt
Jones
Thornhill
Hardman

All of those worked out, and none of them were even first rounders. In a vacuum, you're right. But this isn't in a vacuum. This regime has shown a consistent ability to identify, acquire, and develop talent.

Those are just the elite players, much less the guys like Chavarious Ward, Breeland, LDT, Mitchell Schwartz, Mike Pennel... guys that were identified and brought in to surprising success.

I know the response is going to be "exactly! Sign Jones and find those guys!" Okay, great.. but you're applying the same logic as me: trust that Veach will identify talent and bring them in while making the cap work. I just have MORE faith in his ability to do that with multiple day 1 and 2 picks, as well as financial flexibility. I want Veach to have more capital, not less.

The OL could use a couple upgrades, but they are a top 10 OL as it sits right now by just re-signing Wis. I could see them using a pick on a center, but that’s about it.

?

Isn't that the position Allegretti was drafted to fill?

You’re trading an elite player for what basically amounts to lottery tickets.

I would rather have the elite talent that is Chris Jones that is a bigger difference maker than any one of those players and possibly even all them together.

:thumb:

A long-term deal with Jones is a bet on his continued elite output and health. A "lottery ticket," as you put it, but one with significant downside risk.

We have only had a half of a year in the last decade where the defense was not a complete liability. And we won a Superbowl with it.

You lock up Jones, Nadi, Clark, Pennel and Honey Badger for the next several years- that is a championship core right there.

You would rather have Chris Jones than Kelce, Hill, Hunt, Thornhill, and Hardman combined? Good Lord, that is crazy talk.

Then you can make the same argument for Mahomes.

There is a severe Fear Of Missing Out that is prevalent in this thread. People cannot stand the thought of Jones producing for another team, and they'd rather possibly torpedo the Chiefs roster to ensure that he doesn't.

There is a reasonable argument for keeping Jones and for trading him. But man, saying he's more valuable than Kelce, Hill, Hunt, Thrornhill, and Hardman TOGETHER is nuts.

Jesus Christ. You could trade for draft picks that could be Hill, Kelce, Hardman, Thornhill and Hunt!!!

You could also draft players like Speaks, O’Daniel, Jehu Chesson and Russell.

Yep, I'm not saying you can't. Mahomes is our lottery ticket. It's the ticket with the best upside in the league, and the one that every other GM would love to have their hands on. But the future is not guaranteed.

Except elite QBs impact the game far more and take less physical punishment than a DT, which prolongs their careers.

Mahomes could lose some athleticism and still be an elite QB. We’ve seen guys like Brady and Brees stay effective for 15+ years.

DT’s are essentially in a car wreck every Sunday. Betting on a DT’s health is much riskier.

For those who are strongly advocating for signing Jones, does our experience with Houston not terrify you? He had 22 sacks, got paid, then proceeded to be hurt every year and never topped 10 sacks again. Sub in Eric Berry if you want another example.

What about Jones makes you confident that he's not going to fall apart similarly? I get the "draft picks are lottery tickets" take, but I don't understand how signing a guy like Jones to a huge contract is any different. And the former option comes with a bag of money.

Every player that signs a large contract is a risk.

To be fair, Houston sustained a devastating injury. It wasn’t just a normal ACL tear.

That ruined his lateral agility. It took him 2 years to get back from that injury and was never the same after that.

Well obviously, but the risk of injury is far less with a QB than a DT. If your QB is breaking down due to physical punishment, it’s probably a failure of the entire organization. DTs will break down far earlier.

So do you never pay any of your defensive players?

Injuries happen. It’s all about how you structure the contracts.

Dorsey was ****ing shit at contracts.

Technically, signing Jones costs you both draft picks and money.

We are foregoing draft picks that we could acquire for Jones. Those picks will not belong to the Chiefs if we sign Jones.

So, by betting on Jones, we’re risking both the money he signs for AND the draft picks we could received in return for him.

Oh Jesus Christ. This is a ****ing moronic way of looking at it.

:facepalm:

Reading comprehension helps. There is a difference between the elite players he listed and the other gaggle of players that he listed.

Yep, we might miss out on drafting the next Ryan Sims.

I will bet on the sure winner than taking the mystery box.

If we hadn't already signed Clark, Mathieu, and Hitchens to big contracts the Jones decision would be much easier.

It’s absolutely true. You have two scenarios.

Sign Jones.

Trade Jones for picks and save money.

It’s not just about what you pay for Jones, it’s also about the compensation that you don’t receive when you keep him.

Yeah because Hitchens has been soooooo worth that contract he got. :rolleyes:

You are not saving the money though. You are going to spend it else where on the team.

I’ve said multiple times that I’m fine with either scenario as long as we don’t panic.

I’m fine with the Chiefs signing Jones, as long as it isn’t a drastic overpayment.

I’m fine with the Chiefs trading Jones, as long as they don’t accept shit compensation just because they think they can’t afford him.

It is not like the Chiefs will be signing him to deal that will still be paying out when Jones is in the twilight of his career. He will barely be 30 when this one is up. The guy is in his prime years and is on a HOF trajectory so far.

And if you sign Jones, you’ll have less to spend on other positions.

Granted, there are ways to work around the cap. It just becomes much more difficult.

I agree. My comment was in response to saying that signing Mahomes is a lottery ticket like signing Jones.

Yes, both are risks. But the risk is a lot higher with a DT.

Think of what we could do with all the picks that we could get for Mahomes!! And that’s not even factoring in the $40 million.

That’s not an intelligent appraisal of the situation.

Chris Jones has established a trend of not only being dominant at one of the most important parts of the sport (interior rush) but he has shown to be coachable, as well.

He talked specifically about that before and after the super bowl. He talked about sack nation and how sometimes you have to change things up for the team. He specifically mentioned not always needing to go for the sack and being able to effect the passing game in other ways while staying responsible. He went out and did exactly that. He stayed in his gap and never allowed the 49ers running game to blow right by him while batting down a bunch of passes and got his hands up on many others that prevented Garapolo from getting the ball to targets over the middle (like Kittle).

The other part of the equation is an elite talent like Jones matched with an elite coach like Daly and an elite edge rusher like Clark. Jones has a real chance at his career ending up with a gold jacket if he keeps improving and taking to the coaching of Daly. I can absolutely see him being the most impactful DL in the league in the next 2 years if he stays on his current trajectory as he’s just now entering his prime.

Let’s say we get a haul for Jones like we got for Jared Allen. Unless we manage those resources PERFECTLY we will not get the same impact out of the draft picks as we could get from Jones if he simply continues the trajectory he has already proven to be able to be dominant at.

Chris is also perfectly built to dominate in this specific system that can best utilize his unique movement skills. He’s perfect to be able to play anywhere on the DL and kill it with Twists and others that require his quickness and size to be dominant.

That, and DTs decline rapidly as they age.

Jones will be 26 next season, so.....

https://socalledfantasyexperts.com/a...yers-dl-lb-db/

FYP

I’d prefer to keep him, but I totally agree with this post

What gave you the impression I believe Hitchens is worth his contract?

So you are on the fence and arguing both positions. :thumb:

I am not fine with trading Jones unless we are talking 2 Number 1 picks-which is what he is worth. We should get Mack type return for trading away one of the best defensive players in the game-plus the heart and soul of the Dline.

The guy bleeds Chiefs Red and loves this team. It is not like you can just plug-in someone else and we will be fine. It might take another decade of Junior Savile type players before we get another Jones. That is a big risk, plus gutting our Championship defense in the process.

Depending on the contract but he is not going to see that $20M number for a year or two depending on the structure. Even if it is next year we will have an additional $8M from Berry being off. We will have Watkins gone and many others. We will not have an elite talent like Jones to sign every year.

The fact that we are gonna have to pay Mahomes means we can’t keep Jones. We went all in to win it this year. Time to retool and build a dynasty. That has to come from making good financial decisions since we are gonna have to pay that money for the qb that we haven’t had to thus far.

Categorically ****ing wrong.

Very well said! The big knock on Jones around here was his run-gap responsibilities. IMO he worked hard on that and made huge improvements to become more of a team player. He is perfect for this system so that makes him even more valuable.

I want to win Championships. Jones gives us the best odds for that.

I will leave this right here.....

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/cleve...-arrest-border

Former No. 2 draft pick facing federal drug charge after arrest at border: report

Offensive line, no less.
























But yeah, Chris Jones is too much of a risk.

Here’s where Mahomes is different than Jones.

Mahomes is worth more than any realistic compensation we could receive plus whatever the Chiefs pay him. He’s the greatest talent ever at the most impactful position in team sports. He also plays a position where the greats can play into their late 30’s, but he’s only 24.

Jones is different than Mahomes, because you have a FAR greater chance of replacing his impact with the return you receive for him plus the cap space you save.

Is Jones worth more than what the Chiefs could revive for him plus whatever they pay him? Depends on what they receive for him or what they would have to pay him.

Reverse the situation. If we had two firsts, would you trade the earlier pick for Chris Jones and pay him? A lot of people would and I don’t blame them.

So then you’re getting less value for Jones because now you have to replace him.

Yeah that’s pretty much my stance. As long as we sign him to a decent deal or get great compensation, I’m happy.

Really just depends on the return you get for him