I’ll be very honest here. Veach’s moves paid off early at first but over time some have turned to duds.

I don’t give a shit what Frank Clark is now. He gave us a record 5 sacks in the playoffs and was one of the top reasons we won the SB. He’s turned to shit now but the contract and trade was worth it bc we got a SB out of it.
Honey Badger is one of the best FA’s we’ve had in years.

His first draft was a disaster. Yikes. 2019 was better but underwhelming. 2020 seems pretty good aside from Clyde right now. Sneed looks great but Niang and Gay are still TBD.

This years draft was his best IMO. I think Creed and Smith are legit 2nd contract guys with pro bowl upside. Bolton looks a lot better than I thought. Not crowning him but he looks like he belongs. Add to the fact that we basically got those guys and Orlando Brown Jr in a draft trade.

Probably a B- right now from me. The contract side of the job is what really stands out.

Say what you want about the immediate payoff, but 2018 and 2019 are really hurting us right now.

I don't think he's the best GM in the NFL but I don't think he's the worst either. He still hasn't drafted an elite talent (outside of possibly Sneed) although some players from the 21 draft could develop into studs (Smith looks like a great pick). The best players on this team are still players drafted by Dorsey.

Strengths:
- aggressive nature in targeting deficiencies (this can also be a weakness)
- managing the cap

Weaknesses:
- drafts have been pretty mediocre
- gives up picks for players and prefers to trade up in the draft leaving us with fewer picks and fewer chances at one of them turning out to be a stud

So I'm just gonna point to everything I said on page 1 of this bad boy.

His job is only now starting to get difficult. We'll see how he does...

Even the Ballard bit? Think the bloom has fallen off that rose quite a bit.

Pretty hard to draft Elite talent at the tail end of the 1st or high 2nd. It just doesn’t happen very often.

Hes riding off of Dorseys HOF picks

Kelce was a third round Hill was a what 5th or 6th?

Except that Jones, Hill and Kelce were all acquired after the first round. Schwartz was a bargain FA acquisition and was absolutely vital to the championship.

No - that's not easy. But the last guy kinda made it look like it was. Sneed may be something resembling that kind of steal but what else can Veach point to? Especially when you look at areas he's struggling to fill right now and the depth of talent that has been available to him at WR, for instance.

John Dorsey's efforts were far more instrumental in the success of the Chiefs to this point than Veach's have been. And the job's only going to get harder from here.

We'll obviously know more in a couple of years, but he looks a pretty average drafter. Some great looking late round picks but what he's got from trades and the first 2 rounds looks mediocre. Some real head-scratchers too.

I get there's a big difference between picking at the top and bottom of the 1st, but you can do yourself a favour by not picking a RB. You're probably not getting immediate elite talent there but you might expect more upgrades and regular contributors than he's got.

Obviously there is still plenty of scope for Gay, Thornhill, Saunders, Bolton, Creed etc. to be solid picks.

But this year I think the only areas I feel confident we've improved are at IOL (and that's probably more long term) and TE depth.

Ballard's been struggling with stability at QB, to be certain.

It's the hardest thing to find in pro sports and to some extent he may be a victim of his success there - his team can win some ballgames even with relative chaff at QB so he's struggled to fill the role with an in-house option.

But admittedly, at a point that excuse won't fly. He has to recognize the importance of the position and move aggressively to fill it. I think the Wentz deal is an admirable flyer given that Wentz has demonstrated legitimate Pro Bowl talent and is still a young player. Even as recently as 2019 he was a guy who still had the look of a SB caliber passer and then in 2020 he was just so thoroughly mind-****ed that you had to throw it out (I've never seen someone so vapor-locked in the pocket).

But he can't Matt Cassel it either. If Wentz can't recapture a top 10 QB sort of form, he's gotta look elsewhere or he absolutely deserves any criticism that comes his way.

It's awfully tough having to rebuild a team when your superstar QB decides to walk away from the game just as you think you're turning a corner.

Eh, Schwartz wasn't exactly a bargain. That deal made him the second highest paid RT at the time of signing. More of a testament to just how much the cap has exploded.

Go back and find the thread.

I remember us signing him and then that POS that he replaced signing with Denver (maybe Stephenson) for like a million/season less.

Yeah, he was absolutely a steal. So much so that most of us were floored by the fact that the deal got done at all and figured that Schwartz must have been SUPER pissed off at Cleveland for pulling his deal back.

I'm sure this thread will get bumped when we're sitting at 13-4 and hosting another AFC champ game.

I know it's become the new cool thing to shit on veach.

But the entire starting OL and secondary minus Sorensen and including honey Badger are his. I think our LBs will be solid. Solid units where we didn't spend a ton of money.

So really his problem areas are that he hasn't found a WR2, a RB, and we're missing probably one pass rusher. For a team that doesn't have very much cap space and has a ton of talent everywhere else. He's still a hell of a GM.

Here:

Here's the thread:

https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/show...light=Schwartz

I'd still be floored if the Chiefs don't win at least 12. I'm not worried about this team - they'll be fine.

But we still have to be honest about who Veach has been since he's been here. There are real warts in there and plenty of extremely questionable decisions. Most of those decisions that appeared questionable at the time haven't aged better as they've progressed.

The Clark one is the worst for me. It just sucks.

Other than that, I'd say they're pretty defendable

Thing is, every team is gonna have warts especially one they're as far in as we are. The league just isn't easy to stay good and equipped roster wise for that long. It's probably time for a little bit of a roster churn turnover.

Let's just say that I am very happy I don't get scrutinized under a microscope at my job. Not many of us would enjoy that. I am a vote for Veach.

Could not disagree more on Wentz, I suppose. Trading that significant of draft capital for a mentally and physically broken QB that's locked effectively into a 2/38 deal because of dead cap is a horrendous move, especially considering they very well may have locked themselves out of a realistic shot at a QBOTF if they have to send a first to Philadelphia.

Clark was instrumental in getting us a championship. I'll never regret bringing him in here or be pissed at Veach because he did. That said, he can kick rock now.

The next three years will be crucial to answering the question of how good of a GM Veach has been and will be. Massive contracts on the horizon and gaping holes at important positions are going to test him. He was a wizard from the jump finding bit players to make major contributions, now let's see if he can find the future pro bowlers out there.

Hardman bugs me the most.

If only because I think it was such an obvious 'lost the forest for the trees' moment and it demonstrated a sort of tunnel vision that I first voiced my concerns about when the Speaks debacle happened.

Obviously the Hardman thing was far less aggressive and less damaging, but it was most demonstrative of a long-term flaw and I think it's one that's surfaced a handful of times.

The Hardman pick still bothers me. Just too many talented guys still on the board such as Metcalf, Mclaurin, and Diontae Johnson.

And these weren't exactly tough calls..lots of people knew these guys were good.

I do like that they have mentioned route running since so hopefully they know why they missed.

I love the value plays and Veach has brought a lot to the bottom of the roster.

We just need to hit on some stars. I honestly think this year might be his best work yet.

Creed should have gone in the 1st, Trey is a starter from the 6th.

FA Mathieu amazing, Clark mostly bad.

Love OL rebuild this year, wish we had signed Melvin Ingram.

Fair. There's room for disagreement there.

Personally I didn't think the cost was too steep. A 3rd rounder is dick and if he plays 75% of the snaps to convert that future 2 into a 1, then it still had the 'real time' value of a 2. And if it doesn't convert, it's real time value was a 3.

So you're talking about giving up (at most) a 2nd and a 3rd for a guy who was a probable MVP early in his career? Sure, there's a health risk there, but without the health risk, guys like this don't become available. So that's kind of the risk you have to take.

As for the mentally broken thing - that one really didn't bother me because it was such a product of the environment. I figured a re-set would get him out of that funk and at that point it's just a question of whether or not his back issues have taken the starch out of his arm talent (a real possibility - 'arm talent' is a misnomer. The back is critical in the kinetic chain).

I'm just not sure what else he could've done to find a QB with pro-bowl upside apart from REALLY set his draft capital on fire. I mean Stafford is probably it and he cost a ton. If you're a guy like Ballard who has demonstrated the value he can get out of those picks, it's a hard pill to swallow to give up that much.

The Hardman pick seemed to be a overreaction and panic after the Tyreke allegations surfaced. Some how believing his speed might replace Tyreke.

Clark I will give him a pass the Defense needed his attitude and that alone was worth it at the time. But it seems like we are in the can't wait till he is off the books mode awful soon into it.

Metcalf was an obvious 1st round pick. His negatives were that he couldn't run a full route tree. So what? The 4 routes he ran were elite..good luck stopping those.

Mclaurin reminded me of a bigger TY Hilton. Just a guy that was going to get open and could threaten to take it to the house any play.

Johnson was my guy from the MAC.

Obviously Metcalf and McLaurin are #1 WR's now but Diontae is also way better than Mecole.

And it's worth saying again that it was Veach that convinced the brain trust to go after Mahomes, not Dorsey.

Pretty sure I read that the Chiefs have the most cap space of any team in the NFL committed to the DL. And it's getting wrecked. I feel like you're hand-waiving that fact a fair amount.

And to say "well he hasn't found a WR2..." when he's had 4 years to do so and inherited the baddest mother****er on the planet as his WR1, not to mention an all-world QB and probably the the best pass-catching TE of all time....I mean, that's a little more damning than you're letting on as well.

Absolutely something worth pointing out.

It's also worth saying that John Dorsey knew exactly where he had to be to bring Mahomes into the organization, a spot that nobody really expected him to have to get to. And as it turned out the team right behind where he landed would've taken him.

Meanwhile we've seen Veach get caught flat-footed on the Speaks and Hardman picks.

Veach did an excellent job scouting but the real "GM Work" in ensuring that PM was a member of the Chiefs was done by Dorsey and its impossible to overstate what an amazing job he did getting us where we needed to be.

Darnell Mooney went in the 5th last year and he would be better than any WR on our roster other than Tyreek and (pending exam: Gordon).

I understood not going with DK.

Not being able to run a full route tree is kindof a big deal in Andy's offense. It's just so predicated on quick movements getting into space and precise timing.

If you don't believe a guy can make those sort of moves, you just sort of have a hulk-sized Chris Conley on your hands. I get him not being on the Chiefs draft board because he just wasn't quite the right sort of player.

But AJ Brown and McLaurin should've been. And to see Brown go a few spots before we took Hardman is just another one of those instances where I say "hey, are we sure Veach would've had the foresight/connections to know to get up to 10 and get PM?"

Pretty sure Veach got that info from Cabbott/Steinberg.

"Based on their intel, Cabott said they expected Mahomes would be taken shortly after the ninth pick. He described the lineup of the Bills, Saints, Browns and Cardinals at the 10th through 13th picks as the “hot corner” for Mahomes."

I had Terry as a 1st round talent that year. He slipped because Ohio State was wasting reps on other guys that weren't as good such as Parris Campbell.

McLaurin had it all. Size, 4.3 speed, and incredible route runner.

Agreed... it seems like the Hardman pick was trying to find a WR who resembled Tyreek Hill as much as possible, with the uncertainty at the time regarding Tyreek's future.

Also while it's easy to look back now and say the Chiefs should have drafted Metcalf... he was the ninth WR taken in that draft... so it's not like many teams were projecting the success he's ultimately had.

I 1000% agree that's why he did it.

And it was silly. You don't just 'replace' a HoFer. If Hill's gone, you pivot. You adapt the offense and find a new normal.

That's why I refer to a bit of tunnel vision there. He just made a mistake. He got too locked in on a particular dilemma and it kept him from making the correct decision.

DK was also coming off neck surgery.

Well, to be fair, veach was charged with winning us a super bowl while mahomes was on a rookie contract. Part of that charge was flipping Suttons defense overnight. our defense played a very big part in making back to back super bowls. In the process we overspent on guys like Clark, Hitchens and okafor. I'm fine with that. And Sammy Watkins was worth it because he was huge in our super bowl run. Turning that defense to a 4-3 overnight is one hell of an accomplishment.

Those guys look like poor investments today. Sure they hold us back a little today. We could have had more money and first rounders to plug in. But they were worth it. So we went all in on a super bowl including soaking our cap and losing best picks. Mission accomplished. Yet, we still have a great team and a few pieces away from being dominant. And we have a way bigger window to stay good than most predicted. Id say veach has done a very good job, even if a lot of this doesn't look sexy today.

Wait, why are we not counting Watkins as WR2 for the three years he was here? He was injury prone and overpaid but the guy played some damn good football in both the 2018 and 2019 playoffs.

Veach’s worst pick was absolutely Speaks. There were no redeeming qualities about him.

Hardman had speed and was a dangerous weapon at times in college. Clyde was too.

Speaks just had nothing. He was a pudgy, lazy bitch who acted tough but it was all a show. That was all tunnel vision and the definition of a “need pick”

LMAO Still can't fathom why you draft that guy to be a 3-4 OLB.

No one who was picked after and near Speaks became a star. Weak draft.

Wouldn't go that far. Quite a few DBs and WRs that are at least solid contributors.

That first draft was horrible by Veach.

In his favor is the drafts seem to have improved since then.

Jessie Bates would've been good. He was taken with the pick we traded up from. The big miss was Fred Warner, who I'm sure Reid loves since he went to BYU.

This might be an excuse, but i still wonder if veach tried to find guys who can play either 3-4 or 4-3. Knowing he didn't plan to keep Sutton for very long or maybe was pressuring him into a scheme change. Or maybe that was Suttons grand plan. Speaks, Hitchens and odaniel kind of fit that mold.

For me the thing with Clark is that he was good when we traded for him and he was instrumental in us getting to and winning the SB. I don't think anyone could have predicted he would fall off the map this quickly, but even then Veach was able to do his contract in a way that we could get out of it after this year with minimal cap impact. He planned for Clark to be a superstar and also it appears like he planned for this very scenario.

I've told this story before. But I met Veach shortly after the draft in 2019 during OTAs. He was gushing about Clark. Pulled out his phone to show me reps and said no one could block him. I actually asked him why he didn't stick to the draft and probed about a particular DL prospect who is now excelling and he told me the guy wasn't on his board because of medicals.

That Frank Clark was just a different player. Who knows whether it's physical, mental, or simple motivation. But Veach was giddy about the guy and he did bring the swag to help us win that SB. No way we're stopping Derrick Henry without the attitude Clark showed in that post-game interview.

I truly think that Clark's body is just done, and more than likely when you go to two straight Super Bowls you don't quite have the fire in your belly when your body is fighting you as you try to gear up to get to a third.

Exactly. I know two pass rushers that used to play for KC that are better at getting after the QB than Clark, Ford and Houston. Do we need to rewatch the 2018 playoffs to see how much they mattered in them (outside of Ford's stupid offsides)? When we needed Clark the most he came up big. Now not saying we keep him, but in his biggest moments in 2019 he shined. I wouldn't trade that for anything as flags fly forever. Now if he can't justify his salary anymore then KC needs to move on from him. Thankfully Veach has an out built into his contract that minimizes the damage his hit will do to our cap.

Having 50 million in the bank doesn’t help

Veach was laser focused and hellbent on revamping the offensive line and protecting our half billion dollar QB. I'm very pleased with the results. Next year we can fill in some of the other holes.

He’s done a really sturdy job given the cap he’ll we’ve been in. The Mahomes contract alone was maybe the most brilliant contract I’ve ever seen.

That said, we’re paying for the 2018 draft right now. Our depth along the D is poor, and the big money contracts given out on D are starting to sour: Hitchens’ was never good, and now Frank’s is an albatross. He’ll be able to finally manage those this offseason.

But goddamn, he has maybe his toughest offseason ahead of him. He’s probably going to have to let Badger and Ward walk, and completely rebuild our secondary. He’s going to have to completely retool the DE. He’s going to have to find that tertiary threat at WR, extend Hill and Brown.

With almost no cap space, that’s a tall order. I don’t know if he has it in him. But he’s shown that while his roster management is merely adequate, when he hyper-focuses on a specific weakness of the roster, he obliterates it.

The defense loses in embarrassing fashion. So he fires sutton.

In one offseason he transitions from Suttons 3-4 to spags 4-3. The defense struggles mid season. So he goes out and gets Pennel and suggs. We win the super bowl.

This offseason he adds 5 new OL after a super bowl embarrassment. Which wasn't even his fault given we played all backups.

The WRs struggle so he gets Josh Gordon.

Is anyone actually worried that veach isn't going go work his ass off to fix any problems we have? The guy has been a goddamn magician. He may not always get it right the first time. But he is quick to find his mistakes and try like hell to fix it.

I think you're right to say a strength of his is decisiveness - he doesn't sit around and wait, and he seems to recognise his mistakes, think that's a big plus. The big issue for me this year is his work on the DL. It's been a mess so far. Pretty sure it'll improve and I'm interested to see what he does.

Aside from that, I don't think he's been stellar in the draft. But there are a lot of players he's brought in that have shown they can contribute, we just need to get consistency - Gay, Thornhill, Sneed etc. That's as much on the coaching staff and players as it is him.

He needs to be proactive in get a few pieces on defense. A DE, Corner and LB are areas he should be looking at.

Is that really on Veach though? Clark is non existent, but we can't get out of his contract until this off season. I don't believe anyone thought when we traded for him he would be this bad in year 3. Reed was viewed as an under the radar signing that has yet to pan out like we thought he would. Jones is the 2nd or 3rd best DT in the league that the coaches have playing DE for some weird reason. Nnadi is viewed as a solid run stopper who isn't playing like it at the moment. It's easy to blame Veach for the Dline, but he has addressed it. If the players were performing up to their talent level, we would have one of the top lines in the NFL.

He has in this regards with Gay and Bolton. Bolton looks solid so far and if Gay could somehow rid himself of Watkins disease he looks like he can be a stud as well. I do think we need another one to replace Neiman though, so hopefully he addresses that this offseason.

Agreed. But his haul is better than it looks.... he's been effective in the draft given where he's drafted. And given that he mortgaged several first rounders to chase a super bowl. After the first draft, it's not even like his mistakes are egregious. Mecole, CEH, thornhill are at least role players at worst.

But when you look at his haui

The entire OL
Ward/snead/Fenton/hughes/baker/thornhill
Butkicker
Fingers crossed on Noah gray

While we've been spotty on the front 7 I wouldn't call it a disaster. We've added some decent pieces. Just missing a consistent ppresence. These guys aren't terrible
TNnadi/saunders/wharton
Bolton/gay

Right. This isn’t King Carl. He will work aggressively on the problems, but there’s only so much draft capital and only so many free agents each year that are of the required quality.

Probably true on Clark re predictions. I agree he's addressed the DL, my point is just that this year he's done a poor job of doing so. Nnadi was a good draft imo, but Reed was a poor signing, a guy that hasn't actually been good for the last couple of years but who people seemed to think was the 17-18 version not the more likely 19-20 version.

But in any case I largely agree with your point and it goes beyond the DL. Nnadi, Wharton and Saunders have all shown enough in patches to believe they are underperforming. Sneed too. That suggests it's not all on Veach - but if they never flash again we might need to reevaluate their value as picks and Veach's draft record. If players don't perform, maybe they're just not that good.

Isn't it his job to project how good players will be? I understand giving a GM some leeway cause of injury, but bad performance? That makes no sense. L

One move that’ll work instantly is to play Thornhill and bench Sorensen

I think this is all fair, and to be honest given most picks are still early in their careers it's tough to write anyone off, even if you'd like more from them when they're cheap. I do think Mecole and CEH are just bad picks at this point, but that's partly because I don't like a RB in R1, both can still be contributors.

Later rounds are there to swing the bat. If you get a Sneed and a Smith 4-6 you can be forgiven for whiffing on Gray and Kaindoh - if that happens. Early days.

So Veach when trading for Clark should have magically predicted that by year three he was going to be this bad? If he was a descending player when Veach traded for him, that would be one thing. If he was 33 when the trade would happen, then you would be correct. Neither was the case. No way to know or predict outside of using hindsight he would drop off. Most people think Nnadi is good enough that we might not retain him after this season. Jones' performance has only dropped because they are playing him out of position. The Reed signing was highly praised at the time, it's only now........in hindsight........that it is being questioned. No one on the line was predicted to play as poorly as they have and to think the GM is supposed to just look into his crystal ball and see that is foolish and just a way for fans to point the finger at someone besides the underperforming player.

I disagree with the bolded parts. He hasn't done a poor job on the Dline. They have just terribly underperformed. That is on the coaches and players. I would agree about him doing a poor job on the Dline if our starting four were nothing but UDFAs or over the hill vets looking for one more payday and a possible ring. It's not. There is talent there and if they perform at the level they are supposed to we would be praising his work on the Dline. Outside of Jones we could lose 3/4 of that line at the end of the year.

Reed was almost universally praised as a great under the radar signing. Its only after three games when he has not played well that we are bashing the signing. That's just something this board is almost legendary for though outside a few players. We love the pick or signing until they don't live up to expectations and then we point fingers. Just wait till Creed or Trey has a bad game and watch how many turn on them or the GM for terrible picks.

Veach is not perfect and he has some headscratcher picks (like Speaks and to a point Hardman amongst others), but based off if where he is drafting I would say he has done quite well. He could always do better, but I would rather have him as our GM than 90% of the GMs in the league.

Veach has ****ed up by bad drafting in the first 3 rounds.

Speaks was his only pure high round bust. Every GM has misses. Every single one.

Not sure who would have been better with that pick? That Draft was kinda weak around where Speaks was picked.

Veach has been outstanding overall.

But as others have said, his job isn't to listen to us blowhards it's to make good decisions. I think your point is a fair one to illustrate the fact other GMs could well have made the same move. It doesn't mean it was a good one.

I thought the Jones switch to DE would work, but I'm an idiot. Perhaps it's fair to assume it was always Plan B, and that Ingram was asking for too much in those negotiations before settling for less at the Steelers. Perhaps Veach thought it preferable to get someone in early to gel with colleagues. Perhaps he not unreasonably expected Saunders and Wharton to step up. All reasonable, logical reasons for the Reed signing.

All I'm saying is it doesn't look like it'll work and it's reasonable to hold Veach accountable for his whiffs as well as his hits. Don't disagree with your conclusion, I guess i just dislike the zealots (not saying you're one) as much as the bed-wetters.

Let's face it.... veach hasn't been that good so far. Average to slightly above average.


He's very young so hopefully he is learning from his mistakes but anyone saying he has been 'Best GM in NFL,' thus far in his young career is either an idiot or a complete homer.

I also think Andy Reid has far more influence on who Veach is picking as compared to when Dorsey was here. Anyone who knows about how Reid did in Philly when he was a GM knows this is not a good thing.

Yeah Veach is the best; dude neglected the defense in recent drafts and this is the product.

Great post and I see where you are coming from. Veach definitely is not above criticism for where he has failed. I am mainly highlighting how he has put talent on the Dline, they just haven't lived up to the billing. I do think Reed would look better if he was paired on the inside with Jones. I question why a Top 3 DT is playing DE. That is on coaching. Perhaps he looks harder at an Ingram or Houston if we don't have Jones at DE and the coaches didn't believe this would work. I am still not bothered by the Reed signing for the reasons stated earlier, plus he was signed to a one year deal. He plays well, we potentially resign him. He plays poorly and he walks at the end of the year and we lose nothing. Had we signed him to a Clark type contract then we could torch and pitchfork Veach.

Who's better and why?

WHAT

neglected the defense in recent drafts?

2019 1st round pick-traded for Clark.
2019 2nd for Thornhill
2020 2nd for Gay
2021 2nd for Bolton

not to mention a 3rd for Saunders, 3rd for Nnadi, 2nd for Speaks, 3rd for D'OD, 4th for Sneed...

You can argue the success if you want and I would maybe even agree somewhat, but you cannot say he neglected defense in recent drafts.

What? That statement is not even accurate.

Dang it, you beat me to it.

It’s almost like you don’t know shit.

I don't think most people ever expected Clark to ever be worth what we traded and paid him though. Look at the trade thread. That's as mixed of a reaction as you'll get on a big trade. So yeah he might not have predicted he'd be this bad now, he could have seen that he was never THAT good in the first place.

At the end of the day, his job is to acquire players and be able to project how they'll do in the future. Barring injury, why give him excuses when moves don't work out? It's literally his job. It's the NFL, you don't get points for trying.

Frank Clark was not instrumental in getting us a SB and it is so damn annoying to hear that from you idiots time and time again. You just can't admit that Veach made a huge mistake getting the turd and have to over value some part of his time here.

Revisionist history bullshit.

Clark was THAT good.

Also, do you “get points for trying” when it plays a big role in you getting a ****ing SB? JFC you’re dumb.

Yea Frank Clark’s playoff performance wasn’t instrumental in getting us a SB!

Bunch of ****ing morons.