Don't get me wrong. Again, I like Hardman and I definitely agree with you that he's been very clutch.

It just comes down to what he's worth. If we see a WR market like we saw this past spring, he's going to get paid a lot more than he's worth by someone.

He murdered a DE. That was insane.

Should be quoted as, "Watch Kadarius do it his hardest".

Moore will be fine. He's a rookie, while Toney clearly is not. Lot of talent on this offense.

Side note: Mahomes rolled away from Toney right after knocking that defender on his ass. But man....had Mahomes been able to get him the ball there to give him a chance 1v1 in space...big play potential.

Sure, not a rookie. But far, far from some seasoned pro. Seriously, how much could he have really learned on that disaster of a Giants team last season? One has had significantly more time in this playbook than the other and the coaches all rave about Toney's retention.

Their desire to get him involved early speaks volumes.

And to be fair, Skyy was also involved in the "first 15" last night too.

Yeah, he's an insanely talented player. A different dude.

I am very hopeful for his continuing to build on last nights performance. I just don't think that you find that type of quick feet and ability to separate very often. I'm also hopeful that Moore finds a way to get it right, but I don't see the same type of potential in him that some others do. I remember reading here that he will be the number 1 target by season's end. That's going to take a massive shift in his targets.

Anyone have the Gif of the play where he got open for a 10 yard gain? Supposedly it was a pretty sick move

It was a sick move. And that clip is here in this thread, a couple dozen posts ago maybe.

Thank you Mega - that is disgusting

We may well be JUST the change of scenery Green Goblin needed

Early returns are - full speed ahead

i can't remember if I actually said he'd be the number one WR by season's end, but I said something similar, like WR2, iirc. So I'll take responsibility if no one else does.

I still think Moore is going to be fine, he just needs to adjust a little to the NFL game, and obviously needs some work beating zone coverage in the NFL.

Toney isn't the best at beating zone either, but overall, he's, well let's be frank: Kadarius has elite or near-elite skills as a route runner vs. man. he's just on a different level, and what he can do in that area is rarefied air, even among NFL receivers.

Moore isn't at that level. But he can be really good, and he has run some very slick routes already. He's just not getting enough touches and targets. It'll come around. Just going to take longer than I anticipated.

I was post-nut when i wrote some of those things earlier in the season, so i might've gotten a tad carried away.

Seems as good a place as any to put this. All that nonsense about not trading their 1st round pick was a joke as many suspected.

He was usually first on scene helping or congratulating a teammate after a play , seems super excited to be here.

We need to get him more and more involved. WR screens seem to be a great place to start

Side note. That little out 'n in route that Toney ran on his second catch is the same route JJSS ran on that 4th & 1.

I don't either. Often times, Moore looks like he doesn't belong out there. We'll see how it turns out... Toney, on the other hand, looked the part. Excited about adding him to the team!

It’s lack of eyebrows

Derp.

We're gonna see him run that route on a key 3rd or 4th down at some point.

He's not Hill, but on THAT route, he's going to be just as impossible to cover as Tyreek was.

It's easy money but it's not a play we're going to use until we have to. If we find ourselves in another 2-point conversion situation in 3-4 weeks, that plays gonna be high up on Andy's list.

I just doubt they've gotten him involved in those packages just yet. It'll come.

This kid's gonna be a hell of a weapon for us. There's a non-zero chance that he ends up eating all the way into MVS snaps at the Z by the end of the year.

Someone will be along soon to tell us Clark is lying because they didn't trade for Brian Burns.

That's because it ain't there.

Watch Toney's explosion and you'll see what people were advertising Moore as. And like you, I never bought it. He's a fine athlete for a WR but fine is all.

Toney's a next level guy with a genuinely elite toolbox.

THIS is the kind of guy you see and get excited about the potential for. Moore is a pure floor play. He doesn't have any stand-out flaws nor does he have any stand-out tools. He's...fine. Long term, that's what he'll be - fine.

Toney is just all variance - he's gonna be damn good or he's gonna be out of the league by the end of his rookie contract.

If I'm betting on which guy gets a 2nd deal, I'd say Moore is the safer bet. But if I'm betting on which guy becomes a top 10 WR earner, I'm taking Toney.

He made that cut while being held, too. It wasn't called (and I'm not sure it should have been) but you clearly see the defender alter his route and Toney jukes him anyway.

I think it's pretty obvious that this team thinks very highly of Toney. They wanted to make sure he got at least a couple of targets in this first game. I'm betting they take the Josh Gordon approach with him and give him around 10 snaps for a few games and then he's going to be getting 40%+ in about a month.

The big difference between Toney and Gordon though is that Toney isn't a washed up nearly 31 year old that's only played in 32 games over the previous 7 years. Toney has the chance to be a big producer in this offense and I think he will start taking snaps from Moore, Watson, and maybe even MVS. They pretty much have to find out if Toney or Moore can be relied upon next year and I'm willing to bet that Toneys gonna get that chance to step up.

That's it!

I wonder if Toney has the removable kind of grill, or the unremovable.

Pretty sure it's removable.

And after watching his early interviews before his grill, i totally get why he wears it. I think part of it is that he's self conscious about his teeth.

I'm on the give Hardman more snaps/opportunities bandwagon. I'd love to sign him to a 4 year $40 mil deal. Hell I'd go up to $13 mil/yr for him. If we can see what we have with Toney and if he steps up, then you can let JJSS walk. Having 3 sub 4.4 guys would take this team to the next level and Moore isn't slow by any means.

Another thing is Mecole's production has been impacted by his week 2 heel injury. He only had 2 catches for 6 yards combined in week 3 and 4. Outside of those 2 weeks he's averaged just under 50 yds a game. That'd be good for 800-850 yds this year. That'd put him ahead of MVS and MVS has had 116 more snaps.

Surgically implanted

The interwebs seem to think that kind is a lot less common.

Yep. I'm really excited to see what he can be once he gets the playbook down and gets some chemistry with Pat.

Me too.

Kid is pretty darn strong. You look at how he just yanks away from that guy, how he puts that DE on his ass in the other play, and it's pretty apparent the kid has a lot of power for a player his size. Which also is a huge advantage when teams are playing man press as physically as some of these teams play. Biggest reason most of our receivers have had trouble getting open early. Kad is the answer to that shit.

Here is the thing about Toney. Of course you are going to expect him to have his head on straight for the first week he gets here. Hows he going to act when its the end of the season or faces adversity and EB bitches him out for something? His mental game is going to determine if he succeeds. We shall see.

It's definitely the honeymoon phase. However he has passed the first test with flying colors and considering what rep he had that was no guarantee at all. Couldn't be happier with what I've seen and heard.

I can hear Chris Berman in my head watching that clip - bwaaap!

Collinsworth loves him.


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Exactly.

Ha saw a clip of him making a block and de cleated a linebacker. Maybe Clay can find it. Impressive.

I kinda just want to say, "well duh?"

I mean Toney was a top-20 pick who the Giants thought about taking at 12 but took a chance in moving down a bit and still got him.

Moore went at what, 54? There are reasons for that. Moore has a really good toolbox and he was drafted with the full intent to replace Hardman in 2023. That's exactly the role he's built for.

Toney, on the other hand, is built to be a #1 WR if he puts it all together mentally. It's a comparison of apples to oranges man. It's like gauging the excitement this board would have had if the Chiefs drafted Jameson Williams in the 1st instead of Moore in the 2nd. Clearly better skill sets physically.

You really can't continue your silly rant against Moore in this context. He wasn't drafted to be an instant starter with the group in place this year and he wasn't drafted to be a #1 WR. He's shown some ability. Give him some time.

Honestly, I can't believe how much people here expect the instant superstar impact from draft picks. There are going to be warts early on. We got hordes saying Karlaftis sucks, McDuffie is a broke dick, Moore will never amount to shit, and Cook is a wasted pick because he didn't unseat a very good player in Juan Thornhill this season.

If you're expecting these rookies to be All-Pros, you're probably asking a bit much. Let them develop. These guys are 8 ****ing games into their careers.

Karlaftis actually is getting some pressure. Justin Houston is in the 100-sack club and was a very good player here. You know he didn't get his first sack until game 12 of his rookie year?

McDuffie was never injured in college, give him a chance. He was pretty locked in before the injury.

Moore is buried behind a few vets and learning the playbook. Some HOF-caliber WRs didn't have great starts to their careers. I mean, Steve Smith had 10 catches in his first season. And I don't care if he sucks at special teams, I'd rather he turns into a good WR.

Cook is most definitely the starter next year and functioning in the 3rd safety role and learning for now.

Deal is Hardman looked much better than Moore at the same point on their careers. Moore, often times, looks like he doesn't belong out there. We'll see how it goes, it's still early, but he certainly has not impressed this far.

Boy, you've set the bar pretty low for a 'rant'; it barely even qualified as commentary.

As for Moore - again, I'm not the one who was saying he'd be our WR1 this year or was the best WR in the draft. I'm the guy who's said all along that he's a likely solid contributor and decent role player out of the slot. That's it. I said that if he's ever your best WR, your WRs suck - and was met with great scorn.

If the standard you're setting as 'acceptable' is a replacement for Hardman's role as a gadget player, well you're a hell of a lot closer to MY side of this discussion than the majority of the folks in the Moore thread(s) have been. You've joined my 'rant' more than you've rebutted it.

Misrepresenting arguments and dramatizing people's positions.

Or in less delicate words, completely making shit up.

I suspect you and I are in his example file for those positions despite forwarding literally ZERO of them.

Don't be an angry person.

So is anyone else getting on YT asap everyday looking for brand new clips of Toney in practice? I can't be the only one . . .

Nah, but you're teetering rather close on a couple of them. You don't have a ringing endorsement of the Cook or Moore picks and you're not especially quiet about it, right? I'd say I'm pretty close, if not precise, on the Cook comment. Doesn't mean I think anything about you, I'm just saying give them some time. I understand your position but you go on some diatribe against Moore on pretty much a weekly basis.

I had the same position on Willie Gay but after I said my peace I didn't say much for a while. Looking back, I'd say I've been fairly correct. There's a non-zero chance you may be as well. At this point though, you're pretty much beating a dead horse. Let's see if the kid does anything over the next several weeks to develop.

I'll be honest RN - This guy is a GIGANTIC cheat code for this offense at the moment, I'm not especially worried about missing out on OBJ, I'm not sure this guy isn't almost as good - I mean - consider we've yet to see 11 or 9 top out. I've said it recently, but JuJu is only going to STILL get better.

Go watch Kadarius' Florida highlights. We don't need all world, we just need a 1st down machine mid fielder like this beautiful black man.

LFG Chiefs Kingdom!!

I remember hearing after the draft that this was for 23, Getting up to speed and learning this year.

Oh it sure is sweetie!

Yep.

I don't know why I'm bothering to try to explain this to people, because here on Histrionics Planet, where everyone is a more knowledgeable football mind than Andy Reid or Brett Veach, but I'll try once more.

In Andy's offense, we don't have a slot receiver position, and an 'X' position, and a 'Y' position. We have eligible receivers, and anyone from a RB to a TE to a typical WR can be any of those things depending on 1)the play call, 2)the pre-snap read, which might change the call and formation before the snap.

So We have guys with different skill-sets, and different body types, but they have to learn ALL of the route combinations from all of the positions and be responsible for that at any time. This is further complicated with the post-snap reads, which may require the receivers in the pattern to adjust those routes on the fly in real time in order to match what Mahomes wants depending on the coverage.

A guy might initially line up in the slot, motion to the 'Y' based on a pre snap read and adjust a route after the snap based on the coverage in such a way as to help the 'X' get clear.

This is why it's difficult for rookies to get a lot of snaps. They have to adjust to the speed of the NFL, and then they have to learn an extremely complicated offense for all three WR positions, which can alter pre snap, at the snap, and post snap.

Sometimes Andy schemes up some specific plays to get a guy touches, like Toney last week-but make no mistake, those are schemed touches, much like the majority of Hardman's touches even to this day.

Moore will be fine. If Toney keeps his head on straight, he'll be fine. Maybe great.

People need to be patient.