This.

If you're a Moore fan, AND you wanna keep JJSS, you're going to have to explain where these magical targets for Moore are gonna come from.

I’d sign Juju and let Watson walk. Give Skyy the reps from Watson and Hardman

https://media4.giphy.com/media/FOfe8iGdAiODS/giphy.gif

Detox and I have been called Skyy haters at the same time we were calling for him to start opposite of JuJu to provide a weak-side man-beater as early as Week 3.

These are interesting folks...

By running deep crossers and vertical routes - duh.

"We got a steal on one of the best receivers in the draft at 54!!!.......he should be the 5th option in our passing game...."

Um, okay.

Dolphins think Juju seems very nice.

Now now…Detox was driving that CEH train for the draft. Let’s pump the breaks on his opinions. :D

Watson had about 500 snaps this year. Hardman had 303. Skyy had 313 this year.

That’s 800 snaps between Hardman and Watson open with Juju here.

This isn’t hard..

Skyy doesn't do the things either of those guys do though.

Hey hey buddy, the Chiefs DID draft him afterall....that has to count for something.

I mean, have we seen him run 1 of those this season? Just 1, 1 time?

Makes you wonder what that snap count would look like if Hardman didn't miss half the season.

You wanted to trade away our draft for Jermaine Johnson.

Glass houses and stones and what not, sir...

(Tariq Woolen is still better than Josh Williams)

From two guys who have completely different skill sets than Moore.

Meanwhile I can think of a way to open up about 800 snaps in a role that perfectly matches the skills that Moore has demonstrated in college and the pros....

Why do you need to cut so deep?

Really now? Hmmm

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The only touch for Skyy Moore came on this jet sweep. The motion across creates a numbers advantage for KC play side in the secondary. 87 and 83 get out leading the way. EOL is left unblocked, and 77 looks to seal the inside LB. The motion gave the Bengals issues in the run game. <a href="https://t.co/mDheheph2T">pic.twitter.com/mDheheph2T</a></p>&mdash; Caleb James (@CJScoobs) <a href="https://twitter.com/CJScoobs/status/1600674722156466176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 8, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Every Skyy Moore target from Sunday.<br><br>There was definitely a focus on getting the ball into his hands and letting him make a play. He was given three WR screens, and Pat missed him on seam route for a big play. <a href="https://t.co/B4zves1SUQ">pic.twitter.com/B4zves1SUQ</a></p>&mdash; Zack Eisen (@zackeisen21) <a href="https://twitter.com/zackeisen21/status/1610822859211042816?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 5, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

He gained 12 yards and got run down from behind by a defensive end.

And it was probably his best run of the season.

Methinks this is not the caliber of argument you believe it is.

If they intend for Moore to replace Hardman's role on this team, they're setting him up to fail. This is NOT where he excels and if you are a fan of the guy it most assuredly not how you should want to see him used.

He caught a short pass and ran through contact to pick up additional yardage??

Man, it's almost like that's EXACTLY what JJSS has done in this offense all season and maybe that might be a good role for him to fill going forward...

The answer is staring you dead in the face IF you believe in Skyy Moore to the extent so many people claim to believe in Skyy Moore.

But I've kinda come to the conclusion that most of the people that are just absolutely dead certain that he'll prove the haters wrong and are AGHAST at drawing any conclusions on the pick based on his rookie year....don't actually trust the kid to contribute next season anymore than his most virulent detractors do.

And in many cases, they trust him less.

This is effectively a demonstration that Moore is still taking basic ed. classes in Reid's offense.

1. Hardman is way better at that shit than Moore.
2. You've failed to demonstrate the other, and more important part of Hardman and Watson's game: the vertical speed element
3. It's more likely that Toney ends up vulturing those snaps than Moore anyway, because, again, better at it.

I was told Skyy's game is his "elite" short area quickness, savvy route running skills and giant hands.

If that's the case, then why wouldn't you put him in JJSS' position and let him work short/intermediate zones? That's EXACTLY where'd you use a skill set like that. Hence why taking over JJSS' role makes perfect sense.

And frankly, Moore lovers should be embracing this idea, since that would at least give a qualifying reason as to why Moore hasn't seen more snaps.

It's not like a pointed out that Rudy is a degenerate shitheel or anything...

(Met that guy on a visit to South Bend once. He's...not great)

Because even they aren't buying what they're selling at this point...

Because talking about a players potential and dealing with hypotheticals is less scary than dealing with the realities if he doesn't meet that hypothetical. If JJSS is still here, people can keep hyping Skyy till infinity, no matter what he does or doesn't do and just excuse lack of production by saying "he just hasnt gotten a chance yet". That goes away if JJSS is let go and people will have to deal with the potential that Skyy could sink instead of swimming.

I think JJSS is so scheme dependent that I think if the Skyy hype is even 80% legit he'd be capable of 1,000 yards here.

It makes all the damn sense in the world IF he's the physical technician with elite hands he's being sold as.

I'm willing to gamble because I just don't think the bar is that high.

Agreed. If he's really the guy he was sold as, no reason to think he wouldn't excel in JuJu's role. And with fresher legs and more explosion, should be able to create more YAC than JuJu does.

The obvious weakness/short-coming to Skyy's skills is the inability to decipher zone. JJSS is a vet WR and understands how to sit down or otherwise beat zone concepts. Skyy just hasn't shown a real understanding of where the soft spots are, yet. I still think he will, it's just taking longer than I anticipated. That, and he's apparently coming from a lower experience level in that regard than I thought.

I don't know if he has 'elite' hands, but he's a pretty good catcher of the football, and he snatches the ball out of the air. As for his athleticism, well, just look at those clips above; at least half or more of his yards are coming in the form of YAC; he can make people miss, break tackles and move the chains.

Does any of that equate to elite? mmmm, probably not. is he probably a better athlete than Edelman was? in some respects probably. And Edelman carved out a near HOF career for himself without a lot of elite skills. A great football IQ and good hands was really the extent of it.

He’s an Andy Reid type of receiver. He is a Jack of all trades. He can do some of what Juju, Watson and Hardman do. You can debate the effectiveness to which he does it, but he is running those plays.

The league has changed guys. Fangio cover 2 is now the standard basic defense in the modern NFL. They aren’t letting you throw deep and are begging you to take advantage of other areas of the field.

If you’re Andy Reid and see that, why would you not want a healthy mix of Juju types and Hardman speed guys?

I don’t think Juju and Skyy on the same team means Skyy doesn’t get increased opportunities next season.

He ain't taking MVS's snaps.

He ain't taking Toney's snaps.

He aint taking JuJu's snaps.

Assuming the Chiefs retain Watson, which seems likely, it'd be doubtful he takes Watson's snaps.

In the words of Pecheco, he's gonna have to take a grown man's job if he wants targets. You think that grown man is Watson. I don't think that's correct.

And lets not forget there's likely to be some combo of journey men, ala Watson and/or Rookies that he'll need to outplay as well.

So any news about naing?

Well, not the deep stuff, obviously, in regards to MVS' snaps.

But some of those intermediate stuff, like the 7-12 yard 7s/ins/outs, comebacks, or the shallower overs? I don't actually see why not. MVS has had plenty of trouble running those, and those aren't really in his wheelhouse anyway. Toney's been the best WR running those kinds of routes, definitely better than MVS with the overs, and the 7-type routes are actually right in Skyy's wheelhouse, I think. The shallow (10 yard?) overs could be. The comebacks should be something Skyy could do; he had at least one earlier this season where he was wide open, but he wasn't aggressive enough on the comeback and that allowed the defender to make a play. But that's something that should be a pretty easy fix for him.

And there might be a few snaps he could take from JJ.

it's kind of tough to say; I think there's some fundamental gaps in Skyy's game I didn't see before. Take jet sweeps; he ran a couple recently, but his initial reaction was to try and widen and try to get to the corner, when he should've basically said, "eff it," and dive upfield for whatever he could get. Can that be fixed? I think it should be relatively easy, but he might just be wired that way.

He also did something similar on one of his returns; tried to get wide, instead of just going north. That should be fixable (not talking about the return game, settle down), but some guys just don't ever flip that switch.

obviously time will tell, and I still have high hopes for him. Just needs to come a little further than i thought.


Of course, there's a chance that MVS gets better at some of those as well. But right this second, he isn't that great at them.

So now the Skyy haters are trying to make the narrative that if JuJu is re-signed it’s a knock on Skyy? Jesus. Their vendetta against him is impressive.

Juju was in the slot for 315 snaps as opposed to 451 out wide.
Mecole lined up in the slot 149 times and 146 out wide.
Skyy lined up in the slot 152 snaps and 155 out wide.

I think Skyy takes the majority of those slot snaps from JuJu as well as the majority of Hardmans snaps as well as maintaining his snaps he had last year.

In total, I see Skyy playing roughly 700-800 snaps next year (assuming he stays healthy all year) with 500+ snaps coming from the slot. I expect him to gain 7-800 total yards and 4-6tds.

You aren't getting cap room though. He'd get replaced by someone who costs more than $1 mil. Now that guy may be better. But also maybe not.

Not trying to defend MEH, but he’s a well rounded back that can block and catch where Jones can only run.
It’s logical to assume that JuJu eats Mexoles wide snaps while Skyy eats more than half of Jujus slot snaps.

What? Literally no one said that.



Didn't you have him pegged as taking that many snaps THIS year? I remember you being pretty high on him and all of your predictions falling flat.

Now you wanna argue that the Chiefs are going to resign JuJu (pay him MORE money) just so to surrender those snaps to Skyy? Ooohwee buddy, that's a doozie.

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No. No it's not. Not at all logical.

I think you’re being a little unfairly tough on the guy. I think the jury’s still out on the guy. But he’s doing his job here patiently waiting for blocks. On the other run and most of his other short catch and runs he shows he has really good wiggle in short spaces. He’s a pretty solid runner after the catch even if he’s not a mecole accelerate and run guy. He is a way better run after the catch guy than juju.

If he can become a decent intermediate threat he has a nice role in the offense. We need a guy who can catch and run because we will go hitch heavy at times. He’s got big paws which would be great to see him learn how to consistently break man coverage. And if he can play the game smarter he could be plenty dangerous in soft spots in the intermediate game. A lot of pieces have to fall into place but he would be a multi dimensional WR in an offense that lacks that. Now, I think Toney is doing all those things but better, but who knows if we can rely on him to stay healthy and if we keep him past next year. I don’t think it’s the worst thing for those 2 to co-exist.

Lemme tell you how much I love seeing mediocre production written off as "he's doing his job..."

He gonna start setting edges next?

He's not 'waiting for his blocks to develop' - he's five yards behind his blocks as they develop. That's not 'waiting' as much as it's getting left behind. And he didn't get caught by a DL because he was waiting - he wasn't at his blocker's hips. He got caught from behind because he lacked the burst to carry the edge.

Meanwhile with Hardman's raw speed, he's right at that seam that splits open at the 15 yard line and cutting through it as it opens.

But because he doesn't have any special physical talents he 'does his job' or 'gets what is blocked' or 'manages the game' or whatever other code we use for guys who aren't actually playmakers.

That play was sufficiently blocked for 6 if it's Hardman running it. Maybe for Toney, though Toney's instincts to use wiggle may have actually had him bouncing that and getting squeezed out of bounds.

But 'taking what's blocked' is fungible. It's...fine.

I’d be pretty surprised if he didn’t take a lot of Watson’s snaps next year. If Watson is even back.

Watson will be back. He's cheap, he's big, and fast, and he now knows the offense. The dropsies are a problem, but there's a lot else to like.

I’m not saying he’s doing some priest Holmes work but you’re acting like it’s a knock on his speed for getting caught by a DE when it’s clear he’s just setting up his blocks. I don’t see that as 6 for hardman but even if it was they aren’t the same back. Moore doesn’t have the acceleration and raw speed as hardman, but neither Mvs or hardman has the same kind of wiggle either. Sure hardman is a better option for jet sweeps because of his raw speed but I see Toney and Moore being shiftier in a very small amount of space. The second clip shows some of that.

Basically mecole is his own kind of weapon. He’s perfect for jet sweeps because if you give him a little space he can burst like no other. But I don’t know that he’s ideal for those quick hitches where you catch and the defender is immediately on you. Like the catch and run Toney made on snow globe. And we need a lot of that right now if defenses are going to take away deep stuff while playing a lot of man.

Am I missing something? People keep saying Moore will take Watsons snaps. I don't see it. Maybe I am not paying attention enough but attention but from what I can remember over the season they don't even run the same route trees.

Moore has been shorter quick hit routes where Watson runs longer deeper routes for the most part.

Maybe I need to drink more during games.

Moore has ran his routes very badly several times. Enough to cause a gesture from Mahomes. I dont think he made the trusted list this year. Hope he makes it next year. We will need him.

Not to switch from the Moore discussion, but I did hear Nate Taylor talk about the Chiefs wanting to keep Gay. Made it seem like Veach will be offering him a deal this Spring.

Any idea what that would look like?

The 10th highest paid LB is Zach Cunningham who makes $11 million avg. I wonder if that’s the starting point

I'd actually prioritize Gay over Bolton if I had to choose. I love me some Bolton, but Gay has more physical ability.

My issue with Gay at this point is that they bring him off the field too much.

I'd call Generalissimo Paton stat. Put the right CEH highlight film package together and you could probably pry that end-of-the 1st round pick they got for Chubb for him. Why not try? If he signed off on the deal for Mr. Unlimited, we could likely squeeze him for 1 of their 2 3rd round picks as well as the 1st.

Gay shows flashes and has elite potential, so why the hell are they taking him off the field at times for Darius Harris? Gay is the one linebacker on the team who has the potential to be a top 5-10 type who excels in all areas, but he hasn’t quite fully put it all together. Maybe KC takes the chance to capitalize and sign an extension before his price goes up.

Woof. Gotta strongly disagree with you on this one.

I think they're grooming Chenal for Willie's spot should Willie try to play hardball.

You don't get rid of guys like Bolton.

I'm not sure Gay can lead that LB unit. And if you prioritize Gay over Bolton, that's what you'll be asking him to do long-term.

Bolton has the savvy and intelligence - and the cache - to be the boss of the LB corps. Gay may not be able to be that guy. Frankly I'm not convinced he'd WANT to be that guy. I think Gay, given his druthers, would like to be told where to lineup and then go play with his hair on fire.

You need a more measured and cerebral leader of that unit, especially if he's flanked by two slobbering dogs like Gay and Chenal.

Otherwise you'll end up with Quay Walker out there shoving trainers and shit. Somebody's gotta set a tone of sanity and responsibility in the linebacker group and I think that guy is Bolton.

Naw. Chenal has some straight line speed to test well in a 40. But he doesn’t have the fluidity to be a 3 down backer. He can find himself on the field more, but I think that would be as a blitzer/DE if he can develop a little there

I'd prefer to keep these guys and trade Jones

Sneed you wanna keep. Gay though....eh. Love the player, but he's the kind of guy you let test the market if the $$$ aint right.

Bolton is the stalwart of this LB group. There's no shortage of fast LB's out there. You could replace a Gay. Sneed/Jones/Bolton are a rarer bird.

If signing Gay means you lose Bolton, that ain't it.

And count me as one that thinks Jones is mandatory.

Yeah, I just can't envision a scenario where this team is better over the next 3 years for having traded Chris Jones.

Maybe I just have a poor imagination...

Spot on with this.

Bolton is not only a tackling machine but he’s the general on the field and someone opposing teams fear. Dude is a baller, always has a knack for the ball. He could use improvement in coverage but man he’s the dude and that’s the guy you gotta keep.

Yeah I'd prioritise Sneed over Gay. I'm the same as a few others on Gay, would like to keep but not on big money. The athleticism is great but he's a feast or famine guy, i don't think we're ever getting the consistency we're hoping for to justify a wedge on him when it'll need to go on Bolton.

As a relative Moore enthusiast in the draft (no, I didn't think he was the BEST WR) I'm supremely comfortable with him taking Juju's role. I'd run that risk now if the alternative is big money on JJSS. I think megatron and chiefzilla are about right on him. It's a mental not physical thing imo, not sure that's more or less encouraging, but there's nothing in his college usage or physical profile that suggests to me he can't take that role and offer more. If we're desperate to spend money on a guy to fill that role as a safety blanket I'd see what Meyers is looking for. That again is a guy who does everything JJSS does and a fair amount more, despite similar physical limitations and woeful QB play. If they're drafting another WR I sure as hell don't want JJSS here.

I will never get the Watson fascination, or the repeated insistence that he's "fast". His single redeeming feature is he's cheap.

Isiah Thomas has a theory on that one...

Dammit. Where's Skyy's burst? He runs a 4.4, right? there should be more burst. Where the heck did it go?

He does look like JJ. He can run a good route, though if you look at his highlight reels, he's playing vs. man in just about every clip, and against less-than-NFL standard athletes in most if not all of them, so of course he wins a lot, or they just play off him, which practically stealing for him.

He tracks the ball very well, and will attack it wherever it is, when he has to. But for a 4.4 guy, there's a noticeable lack of burst, which is concerning.

Man, I must be going blind, or he flashed better acceleration earlier in the season or something.

He's just setting up blocks...

Jones is a disruptor, but okay

Meh. Even if that's the case in some situations, there's snaps in those clips in the OP where he's just running a route, whether it's a slant, a skinny post, whatever, and after the catch there's not much of a mid-gear burst. TBH, I don't know how that's possible when you run a 4.4; there should be a pop to the next gear, so where is it?

Exactly, Jones has the ability to disrupt every play he's on the field for.

On the topic of Skyy, it's really too early to be saying much and I'm holding my tongue till we see how year 2 pans out... but man as it stands there's no question it stings a little watching Pickens **** shit up in Pittsburgh while Moore fumbles 404944 punts and is relatively non existent in the offense.

We have 2 starting caliber WR's under contract for next year and a second round pick that seems shell shocked/PTSD. I have a hard time believing that this coaching staff goes into next year with only 1 proven WR (MVS) and a very good potential WR in Toney. The rest os a crap shoot. I could see if any of those reclamation projects show out in the TC/PS that we shop someone but I'm not buying that we let Juju/Hardman and/or Watson walk.

Juju Smith-Shuster (26 yo)- Re-sign
Marquez Valdez-Scantling (28 yo) - Under Contract until '24
Kadarius Toney (23 yo) - Under Contract until '24
Mecole Hardman (24 yo) - Free Agent
Skyy Moore - (22 yo) Under Contract until '25
Justin Watson (26 yo) - Free Agent

Justyn Ross (23 yo)
John Ross (27 yo)
Ihmir Smith-Marsette (23 yo)
Ty Fryfogle (23 yo)

Just going to say one last thing about Skyy before the playoffs begin: Pat flat missed him on that seam route. Mahomes dirts that ball 3 feet behind Skyy; if Patrick had taken a quarter of a second to reset his feet, so he could get any hip into that throw, and hits Skyy with anything that lets him keep running, Skyy goes for a big yardage play, maybe even a TD. And maybe he'd change a couple more minds around here.

He was that wide open, and I'm not sure if the safety would be able to catch him from where he appeared to be.

Which game?

The last one vs. LVR.

Thing is, I'm going thru my YT history to find the highlight clip I was watching an hour ago, and now I can't find the thing. Great.

Lol, I've been rewatching YT videos for like an hour now, trying to find that one, and of course no dice. I am not staying up all night looking for that thing. I'll try again tomorrow.

You guys are saying that the skill set Skyy brings is the the type that best fits the role JuJu provides and that is being used to orchestrate how the pick wasn’t a good one at 54 over other options you guys liked better.

Or am I missing something?

I’m saying that having both on the field at the same time with Toney and Juju out wide and Skyy working mostly out of the slot is what I think will be how it plays out for the lions share of the snaps next year. Since day one, I’ve compared Skyy to Welker/Edelman and Karlaftis to Tamba and I stand by those.

Agreed that I was over zealous in how I thought his rookie season would play out. For sure I’ll take that L. I absolutely thought he would earn Pats trust nearly immediately and the opposite happened.

It’s very possible I completely missed on my evaluation of his during the draft season, but I dont think so.

I couldn't see how the offense would be better without Hill, but here we are. They are better.

Veach could see it. If he decides Jones draft picks in a trade and the opening up of cap space for others is the path to take us, in Veach we trust.

I don't think its lack of talent, It's Mahomes not trusting him, yet.

Denver

Moore was inactive for LVR.

Paying JJSS say, 17 per year, takes away the ability to pay a DE.

Was it DEN? Maybe I can find it now. Thx.

Far from it. Releasing just Clark frees up $19.6M.

Lol, yep, you were right. And you can find it in one of the clips in this thread. Man, my memory is getting weird. Thx for the heads up.

Yeah, I forgot. It was in the DEN game.

slightly more than halfway through the clip. Chiefs are lined up on the left hash, Pat starts the play reading to the left, comes right and sees Skyy running wide open right down the numbers on the right, and just doesn't reset his feet. he tries to just muscle it out there and ends up dirting it behind Skyy.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1610822859211042816
there's a safety high, so Skyy probably doesn't score, but it's a big gainer, 20+ yds. Just a bad pass.

Somewhere there’s another clip of this play, with audio, and it’s zoomed in, so you get a little better look. If I can locate it, I’ll post that one as well.

Bottom line(s) -
Snap counts are just the number of plays. They're not divided into running snaps or receiving snaps. Therefore, not necessarily a good measure for a WR.
Who does PMII trust? I don't think he's ever trusted Hardman on any route except a go. After almost 4 years you'd think he would understand a 12 yard up and out means 12 yards, not 12.75 or 11.3. One has to question that if Hill didn't have some trouble 4 years ago, would we have even drafted Hardman.
Moore is from a rookie from a school in a weak conference. He'll need some time to adjust to the NFL.
Toney runs the jet sweep just fine and he's harder to bring down than Hardman.
Watson isn't WR1-3, he's 4 at best. But with Hardman and Toney injured and Moore still learning, he's been thrust into a role. The team still needs guys to fill the WR4-6 roles.
Until someone steps up and takes pass plays from either Juju or MVS they'll be on the team.

One more thing -- WRs need to block downfield.

This isn't terribly difficult data to find, though...

The Chiefs, on the season, had 768 passing snaps. They broke out as:

Kelce -- 600 receiving snaps
MVS -- 554
JJSS -- 528
McKinnon -- 343
Watson -- 295
Gray -- 283
Hardman -- 200
Moore - 167
Pacheco -- 147
MEH -- 124
Fortson -- 104
Toney -- 65

I mean, do what that information what you will, but if it's your position that snaps aren't a reasonable proxy for 'receiving snaps' I'd say that's incorrect. By and large, the correlation appears to be pretty much one for one.

Which makes sense as Andy has always noted that he is cognizant of 'telegraphing' the playcall based on the alignment. So he's just not a guy who's going to run a system where personnel gives a hint as to the play being run.

Ultimately it's difficult to tell what your thesis is here. I gues if it's to speak to Mahomes 'trust' in his receivers you'd want to divide targets by number of routes run?

Kelce -- 600 routes and 150 targets -- targets on 25% of his routes run.
MVS -- 13.7%
JJSS -- 18.4%
McKinnon -- 19.8%
Watson -- 10.8%
Gray -- 12.0%
Hardman -- 16.5%
Moore - 19.2%
Pacheco -- .9%
MEH -- 17.7%
Fortson -- 12%
Toney -- 24.7%

So by that metric, Mahomes actually 'trusts' Moore a pretty fair amount or at the very least isn't shying away from him. And boy howdy, watch out for Toney next year.

Now you see Watson's 10.8% and say "man, Mahomes never actually goes to him with the ball, why's he playing??" You know what Watson's averaged depth of target is? 21 freakin' yards downfield!

So to the 'Moore will replace Watson next season' crowd - nope. Just zero chance of that. Watson is being used almost exclusively as a deep threat. Watson and MVS are actually being used in similar roles. Meanwhile the WR who's ADOT and usage rates are the closest to Moore? You guessed it - JJSS.

Nate Taylor said the postseason will be interesting. If he has a Sammy Watkins type postseason his value will jump bc “other teams be watching at that point”.

So yeah a somewhat fair deal might be something to shoot for now but maybe not for long