Yes.

Pretty much. Despite what you want to believe, every pitcher in our system isn’t a future Cy Young winner.

No, not at all. He's a throwback guy - a pitch mix pitcher who can throw a lot of shit at you to get outs.

But he scrapped the breakers in the 4th inning or so tonight. I'd guess Molina didnt like what he saw from them so they went almost exclusively fastball/changeup (really almost exclusively fastball fastball). That's the value a veteran like Yadi gives you.

It got him through 7 but it also meant he had no chance for 9. Ultimately I'd say his stuff is solid 5th starter type. Mike Leake-esque. That seems underwhelming but when Mike Leake costs $80 million, he can be damn valuable.

:facepalm:

come on man I only said that about Martinez, Reyes and Flaherty.

I don’t know a damn thing about him other than he took one off his head. Was in ICU for awhile.

The only two Cardinals' pitching prospects recently that I feel like I have been significantly wrong about were Kaminsky and Gonzalez.

I thought Kaminsky would be the better of the 2 and Marco wouldn't be able to make it as a starter.

I also think I might have to eat some crow on Flaherty as well as I thought Weaver was better.

And Hudson...

You should definitely know who Bud Smith is.

Apart from being key to the Rolen trade, he was almost as hyped coming through the system as Rick Ankiel. Kid looked for all the world like a genuine star.

Then he threw something like 135 pitches as a 21 yr old in a no-hitter and became a cautionary tale foreverafter...

I call BS. Prove it.

All I know is that half your roster would get Torres, and maybe more, in a 1-for-1 deal.

Which is why I alluded to him.

La Russa said it was one of his biggest regrets.

Quite honestly I’m too lazy and it’s too hard to search the thread on my phone, so I’ll concede the point, but you are a lot higher on him than most people are.

yeah I remember that. Can’t miss pitcher. Lots of people saying we got a bad deal on a worn out or washed up Rolen.

I’m coming around to the bird in the hand is worth two in the bush trade mentality. Mo has taught me that hanging on to upside too long also has a downside and missed opportunity to make the team better.

Eh, its overblown.

Smith's next 2 starts were good and he pitched very well in the playoffs as well. If he scrambled his shoulder in that outing, he wouldn't have made any more starts as effectively as he did.

I never understood that argument. He was sound going into that offseason, IMO. AMD when the time came to ramp back up for the 2002 season, he broke down. Happens to a lot of guys...

I just think in general it's probably best not to ride a pitcher's arm into the ground when they're developing.

I don't think a team needs to take the Nationals approach with Strasburg(which could have been ****ing avoided, but whatever).

Just lol

That game went to the 8th with the Cards having 1 run and 5 hits and the Reds having 0 runs and 0 hits. They end tied for hits at 5 and lose 2-1.

Man, this team is full of unlikeable one who sucks the peniss, but I’m not sure that I dislike anyone more than Bud ****ing Norris.

Holland coming back to his norms. Mo had better do some selling before the trade deadline. There is not a chance of a fan revolt for giving up on this season. Realistic fans anyway.

I wonder what Norris would think if Poncedeleon hazed him.

Of course they lose this ****ing game.

.500 on the season. Perfectly balanced as all things should be.

Apparently my merely considering turning on the game is enough to doom them. :D

:clap:

I turned it on, saw ponce was being taken out and turned it back off.

My bad guys

I'd like to see Hicks jam a lit cherry bomb up Norris' ass for that performance.

Schildt ****ing butchered that inning, too. There is no more braindead managerial philosophy than "it was his game either way." If he was pitching well and they were getting bullshit hits like the 2010-2014 Giants, than sure, leave him in, but when he's getting ****ing rocked by every batter you can't just leave him in there to lose the game.

I don't know how a baseball lifer can sit on his ass for an inning like that unless he's just as big of a strategic clod as the mong he replaced.

DeWitt needs to drop a neutron bomb in this organization in the offseason.

Maybe the Cardinals could buy low on Gary Sanchez. He's been complete shit this year and ****ed up big time tonight.

Give them Carlos Martinez and Kelly and package Sanchez with some of their prospects.

Send Sanchez to the minors and let Molina work with him in the off season or work him at first base, which the Yankees have already done a little bit of.

Seriously?

Although I agree that it was obvious even to a layman like me that Holland didn't have it tonight. They were solid hits. Who do you put in? Thats the core of whats going on with out bullpen. We have one reliable pitcher out of 7.


In the few games since Meathead was fired, Schildt has been better at managing the pitching, and the bullpen way better than Meathead. I know thats a low low bar to clear but its still an improvement.

We should know by the end of the season whether he's the "most impressive new manager" as Ron Darling says or he's just Meathead II.

I disagree with this approach. We don't need to go full Astros and Cubs and purposely tank for 3-4 years, lose 100 games each year to get to the top of the draft.

I think we can all agree that we have enough pitching to not blow this up. So why blow it up for just offense?

We need a good manager. 2 impact bats and we can realistically complete in the payoffs.

You need a whole new bullpen and at least 3 or 4 new starting position players.

The only way you are getting 2 impact bats is if you blow it up and sell your few good pieces or Ozuna and O'Neill suddenly develop the ability to hit MLB pitching.

They don't need to tank. They do need to fire Mozeliak and Girsch, as well as the entire big league coaching staff, save for Budaska, and maybe Warner and Marmol. The trainers and medical staff all need to be gone, too. The entire organizational philosophy regarding the health of the player needs to be re-evaluated.

There is one usable piece in the bullpen for next year: Hicks. Tui, Brebbia, and Mayers are all just above replacement level. I guess you can have them in the pen, but they aren't adding much value. Everyone else should be cut.

OF: Ozuna has been unlucky this year if you look at his exit velocity, but even then he projects to be someone about 10% better than league average and his defense has gotten worse for three straight years. He's probably only a 2-win player. They should have moved the pieces for Yelich, but Mozeliak is incompetent. Fowler needs to be cut ASAP. Bader is due some negative regression, but his defense makes him valuable. You hope that Pham's struggles in May and June were actually due to his hands not being in the slot when hitting, but I have no faith in the training staff to not misdiagnose and/or lie about what his issues are. O'Neill is always going to strike out 200 times a year, but if he can manage a 10% BB rate, it's palatable with his power.

IF: Gyorko's defense has been really bad lately, and he's not getting consistent ABs. His contact quality has been poor this year, which points to a decline in his power, and thus, his value as a player. Munoz is an atrocity on defense, and he should only be hitting about .240 with a .380 slugging percentage. At this point, he's nothing more than a bench utility player, just like Garcia. Martinez should be in the AL. Wong is Wong, a good defender who can't hit. He hasn't been unlucky this year. He's just a bad hitter and he always will be. Carp is playing like an MVP candidate, but he's 32.

SP: Flaherty has looked good but not great. Weaver has looked like a back-of-the-rotation guy. Hudson will never miss enough bats to be anything more than a #4-#5 starter. Martinez's year was derailed by his lat and oblique injuries, but someone with his stuff should be striking out more guys than he does (and this has always been the case). You can't count on Alex Reyes for anything at this point. Gant and Poncedeleon are #5 starter types. Maybe Gomber is a #4 b/c he's left-handed and can miss bats, but he's probably a #5, too.

Mozeliak basically turned this team into the St. Louis Truefans: a mediocre team with a few guys with talent that delude fans into thinking, "what if?"

There is no, "what if?" They need to start going after dollars instead of stacking together dimes and quarters.

This team is much further away than you realize.

Look at the genuinely good teams in the league and compare them to ours. It isn't a question of getting back to 86-88 wins and sniffing for a wild card (that might be doable). It's a question of running with 3-4 genuine 100 win caliber squads in baseball right now. We're in an era of genuine superteams in Houston and Boston with that kind of ceiling for NYY, Chicago and LAD (especially if they can get some pitching).

When you say "we have the pitching to hang..." you sound like a Mets fan. There are still a few die-hards who believe the Mets should be pushing in to build a team around DeGrom and Syndergaard and that Matz/Wheeler will come into their talent and be genuine top of the rotation pitchers any day now.

Okay - lets say that all happens: the Mets will still suck. Now don't get me wrong, the Mets are the extreme version, but they also have 2 pitchers that I'd take over anyone on this roster (contract status excluded), especially if I were in a win now kind of mode.

The Cardinals probably have the pitching depth in the organization to tread water - yes. With a few breaks here and there, perhaps they can challenge 88 wins in '19. But Carpenter's not going to hit forever nor is Molina. Those are pretty much the sole offensive bright spots on the squad. DeJong has come back as the version of himself that I was worried we'd get all season. Wong...well I'm not the right person to talk to about Wong, he'd start on any team I build because he's a premier defensive player at a key defensive position. It's not his fault the guys that are getting paid to hit...can't.

Gyorko probably needs to be dealt again after we mind-****ed him (same thing happened to him in SD). The OF is a goddamn trainwreck for a myriad of reasons and the only person likely to provide immediate help is O'Neill, who's flaws are well established.

Don't ask yourself what we need to add to win a wild card - ask yourself what we need to add for the WC to matter. The bottom line is that it's just not doable in a single season and probably not over 2. I like the work Flores is doing a lot in the draft but we're 3+ years away from that being relevant.

The Astros had a young team that was close to getting over the hump - they added Verlander and tried to add Britton until the Orioles Orioled. It won them a championship and then they added Cole. Meanwhile the Cardinals won 100 games and also had another flag for the taking - they added Brandon ****ing Moss. And if they won a championship you can bet your ass they wouldn't go after the best young available SP in baseball the following offseason; that's too aggressive. Mozeliak is a pussy who doesn't have the chops to hang in a division with a guy who earned his stripes in the cut-throat AL East and a bold young executive in Milwaukee who learned under Luhnow.

I'd fire Mozeliak the moment the season is over (but I'd make him fire Girsch first just to be a dick; seriously, what a ****ing joke that whole thing is). Then I'd survey potential GM candidates and if I could manage it, I'd hire one that can work with Flores. If not, I'd grudgingly let Flores go for the right GM.

But the whole damn team is stale and needs a change.

Agreed except for Oquendo. The medical staff can be charitably called incompetent.
Agree
Still disagree on the upside of Flaherty. I see the same motion and arm slot with the slider and fastball that will only get better. Thats going to miss bats and not allow hitters to center the ball.


Reyes injuries are a red flag. But, if healthy, still top shelf talent.
Agreed. They need to drop this we just need a better reliever and we can compete for the wild card mentality.


I think part of this is a result of 2006/2011. Just get into the tournament and you have a chance. Which is true. But............. do you want a realistic chance to win it all or just count on a lot of luck?

I'm coming around to that realization. You see the talent on other contenders..... we are not even close. :shake:Totally agree
I just dont see Dewitt firing Mo this off season. Thats just not his style to totally clean house immediately. I didnt think he'd fire Meathead mid-season so hopefully I'm wrong on this one too.

The roster is garbage, BRC. Mo must go...

Since when have I said to keep Mo this year? I've just said Dewitt is not pulling the trigger.

FTR, I think the whole FO needs to be fired this off season. New GM hires the new manager.

And the worrying reality is that virtually all those teams have more impact prospects in their system than we do.

Most of them don't have the depth of likely contributors we have; the pile of JAGs that makes up most of our 25 man, let alone the high minors. But the Astros have 3 guys who are likely better than our best, especially in terms of their ability to be truly great. And then they have guys like Derek Fisher who are effectively throwaway guys for them and they've put up better seasons that nearly all of our 'prized' prospects.

You think the Yankees are sitting there saying "well man just wait until next year when Albert Abreu gets here...." and he's generally as highly regarded as Flaherty was.

Boston and Chicago are pretty much cleaned out at this point but I don't think they care - they have money and young position players to spare. Not to mention genuine force multipliers in guys like Bryant and Betts - they'll get over not having Carson Kelly and Tyler O'Neill, I'm sure.

It isn't just that the present squad is so damn average, it's that the guys piling up behind them are as well. And Mozeliak has become so frozen by the possibility of making a mistake that he's just letting these piles of JAGS atrophy rather than flip them at peak value. He's going to have annual issues with his 40 man and the rule 5 because he can't just keep protecting these guys that have stacked up but haven't advanced.

Bottom line is that everyone has prospects and most of them can run with ours, especially in terms of upside. The product on the field is average and being supported by Indian Summer kind of performances from guys with noplace to go but down.

There are some assets there - they aren't the Orioles or Royals. But they're not going to be good for quite awhile and that's only if they get lucky and someone like Delvin Perez gets his shit figured out and Gorman turns out to be a homerun of a pick.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">7 NO-HIT INNINGS? THAT WAS LAST NIGHT! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR US LATELY? <a href="https://t.co/i09jUDmQ0G">https://t.co/i09jUDmQ0G</a></p>&mdash; Keith Olbermann (@KeithOlbermann) <a href="https://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/status/1021810207536627712?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 24, 2018</a></blockquote>
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Forbes 2018 team values

1. Yankees - $4 B
2. Dodgers - $3 B
3. Cubs - $2.9 B
4. Giants - $2.85 B
5. Red Sox - $2.8 B
6. Mets - $2.1 B
7. Cardinals - $1.9 B
8. Angels - $1.8 B
9. Phillies - $1.7 B
10. Nationals - $1.675 B
11. Astros - $1.65 B
12. Braves - $1.625 B
13. Rangers - $1.6 B
14. White Sox - $1.5 B
15. Mariners - $1.45 B
16. Blue Jays - $1.35 B
17. Padres - $1.27 B
18. Pirates - $1.26 B
19. Tigers - $1.225 B
20. Diamondbacks - $1.21 B
21. Orioles - $1.2 B
22. Twins - $1.15 B
23. Rockies - $1.1 B
24. Indians - $1.045 B
25. Brewers - $1.03 B
26. Athletics - $1.02 B
27. Royals - $1.015 B
28. Reds - $1.01 B
29. Marlins - $1 B
30. Rays - $900 M

I like baseball again!

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Yankees?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Yankees</a> have emerged as clear front-runner for <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Orioles?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Orioles</a>’ Britton, sources tell The Athletic. NYY scratched RHP Dillon Tate from his start tonight at Double A. As always, no deal is complete until all medicals are approved by both clubs.</p>&mdash; Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) <a href="https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1021909177063628800?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 25, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Sheesh. If that's the deal for Britton that seems like quite a bit considering Familia has been better and only returned pocket lint.

Gomber no hitting the Reds going to the 6th inning with 70 pitches.

Riggleman bails out Shildt by pitching to Munoz with a base open. Full ****ing reerun...

Fire alarms OMG ROFL

Bush league drunken Reds fans pulled a fire alarm.

What a disaster the Reds are

Tie game...****ing bullshit!!!

That sucks. Done in by a fire alarm and Fowler playing right field. Bader catches that ball.

And now we lose this one too...

What a disaster of a season ROFL SELL SELL SELL

Yeah I’m not sure why he was playing so god damn deep.

no doubt. Bader gets to that ball.

After the Meathead firing, everyone in the Cardinals organization said they are playing to win. Putting one of the bottom 5 hitters in the league with bad defense in RF over a clearly better player tells us that’s just BS spin. I’m sure the locker room knows that truth too.

And even if you think Fowler is a better option than Bader offensively, you just made “defensive” moves with other positions, why didn’t you pull Fowler and put Bader in? We’d still have the lead, maybe.

The Fowler thing has to be coming from Mo. No excuse he is getting playing time over Bader. Just fake an injury Dexter and go away until spring training.

**** this.

This team is no fun to watch. Fire the incompetent duck manager and they still lay down.

its not looking good for the interim manager.

I’ve seen Munoz make two game saving good defensive plays in the last two games. Is that outliers or has he got better.

He’s hitting .324 since May. We could use that offense in the lineup.

DJ and Hamas are you guys sure Munoz is not salvageable as a major leaguer?

Holland was coming in if Fowler doesn't homer :facepalm:

I wonder if he got marching orders to play Cecil, Fowler and Holland as part of the deal to become interim?

He's a major league player, but he's much more likely to be a utility guy than someone whose bat profiles somewhere. His defense is limited in that places where his bat would be OK, like short or second, which will lead to him giving up a ton of runs. Matt Carpenter has actually been a better defender than Munoz this year (and not a better defender at first than Munoz at short, a better defender, period). He seems like the kind of guy that can have a .330 BABIP, but if it drops from .360 to .330 then he's a .260 hitter with a bad glove and middling power. A good guy to plug a gap, but not someone you want to run out there for weeks at a time. He is the perfect TLR role player, but that's all he is.

I'd say the part where he IBB'd the tying run with two outs in the 11th should say all you need to know about his managerial prowess. The great thing managers have going for them is that even their dumbest decisions work out 50-70% of the time. He got lucky as ****.

Jon Morosi of MLB.com reports that the Cardinals will release Greg Holland.

Holland cost the Cardinals $14 million and they had to forfeit a draft pick. In return, they got a 7.92 ERA over 32 appearances from the veteran reliever. Ouch. Holland should catch on elsewhere now that he can be had at the veteran minimum, but his days as an effective reliever might be over.

If the Yankees decide to add a temporary fix in Judge’s absence, an interesting name: Jose Martinez. He can flat-out rake and could be DH, with Stanton playing RF. Other market possibilities: Granderson, maybe Michael Taylor if Nats sell, maybe McCutchen if SF sells— Buster Olney (@Buster_ESPN) July 27, 2018

Stealing $14M should be a crime. Goddamn that guy.

But at least the bleeding will stop.

Who said he's not a major leaguer?

I don't think he's a particularly good major leaguer. He's a bit of a tweener in that his offense won't play at 3b and his defense won't play anywhere else. He's a born utility player, IMO.

He's a fine guy to have as the 23rd dude on your roster. On this roster, OTOH, he's just another flawed, forgettable baseball player who has holes in his swing and hits from the right side.

If you could trade him for a version of him that hits lefthanded, I'd friggen love to get my hands on that guy. The problem isn't Munoz as much as it is his fit in STL.

Does this mean he’s not still trying to figure things out and just needs more time?

This ****ing guy got just under $500k per inning to pitch 8 era ball.

Hudson will take Holland’s spot on the active roster.

So here's the funny part - The Cardinals gave Greg Holland $13 million to do nothing at all useful for the last 4 months. And despite literally setting $13 million on fire - THAT'S NOT EVEN ONE OF THE 3 WORST DEALS MOZELIAK HAS HANDED OUT IN THE LAST 30 MONTHS OR SO!!!!!

The book is closed on Leake and giving him north of $40 million (when you account for the $18 million they sent to Seattle) for about 1.5 seasons of mediocre pitching was worse. The book may as well be closed on the $32 million they set on fire for Cecil and barring some miracle turnaround under new management, we've probably seen all the good we're gonna see from Dexter Fowler's $80 million.

The $12 million they're paying for Gregerson to be below replacement for a year (he's gonna get cut in the offseason, if he even makes it that far) is barely in the top 5 most awful contracts given out by Mozeliak in the last 2 seasons.

How in the shit does this guy still have a job?!?!?

Isn’t that also a recap of all of the teams higer money FA signings in the past 3 years as well?

Too bad you can’t send veterans down to the minors. Fowler and Ozuna need a DL “rehab” stint. They need to see what they might have in ONeill on a more consistent basis at this level. He has cut his K rate and upped his walks since going back down and is still crushing it.

Cardinals acquired RHP Seth Elledge from the Mariners for RHP Sam Tuivailala.

Ranked by MLB.com as the Mariners' No. 10 prospect Elledge holds a 1.17 ERA and 54/15 K/BB ratio over 38 1/3 innings at the High-A level this season. The 22-year-old will be promoted to Double-A Springfield to start his tenure with the Cards and could move quickly.

Tuivailala holds a 3.04 ERA across 74 relief innings over the last two seasons but hasn't missed as many bats (60 strikeouts) as his velocity suggests he should. Still, he's a quality middle relief addition for the Mariners and is under team control through 2022.

Cardinals designated LHP Tyler Lyons for assignment.

Lyons posted an 8.64 ERA over 27 relief appearances for the Cards this season while battling back and elbow issues. He's been awfully good in the past, though, including in 2017 when he held a 2.83 ERA with 68 strikeouts over 54 frames. Lyons is also under team control through 2020, so he could garner some interest on waivers or via trade.

Mo starting to clean up some of the trash. Good start but will be interesting to see what happens or who happens next.

Tui trade is interesting. He's JAG, so hopefully they're right about Elledge.

Rumors are Norris is on the block. Hope he goes. **** that guy.

Any way we can dump cecil?

Probably not....

Nothing worse than blowhard vets who are also clubhouse snitches.

They put his bitch ass on the DL to try and recoup some value. They'll probably eat his contract in the offseason along with Gregerson.

God, Mo's gotta go.

Also, there were rumors in Colorado that Holland was an alcoholic, and supposedly, a lot of guys in the clubhouse don't like Ozuna.

how in the hell did we get a teams top 10 prospect for Tui? I never saw Tui even at the level of JAG.

1. Forgive me but what is a JAG?

2. To be fair, the Seattle farm system has been mostly depleted due to a ton of trades over the last few years. Still though, this guy does show some promise.

Just
Another
Guy