We aren't the Spankmees here

Yes, any of those names would be a poor deal in my opinion right now, and I would like a shortstop. I would prefer to see what the Rangers might want for Andrus. I don't think they will shop him in the offseason, but I could see them around the trade deadline fielding offers if their prospect is as ready as most seem to think.

I am not a huge Holliday basher, he has put up steady numbers here, but if there is someone willing to buy high on him right now I would field those offers. We have Craig who is probably better suited for left field. Adams who could potentially replace or equal Holliday's numbers at first base. Jay/Taveras in CF, Beltran/Taveras in RF.

Holliday is never going to be a guy who carries your club, the value on his contract has been fine so far, but he is entering that part of his career where he could start a Jason Bay type decline, but at best he is probably no better than the replacement value we already have to plug in at much reduced levels.

Yeah, let's give up on a kid that couldn't throw 200 innings in the bigs in his first shot as a full-time starter after throwing as a reliever the year before.

He was great in April, May and September. He was very good in July. There's no question that he struggled in June and August, before clearly hitting a wall in October, but these things happen to young pitchers.

Lynn is built like a horse and has a good power arsenal. He's essentially Aaron Harang at a hair over the minimum.

If you call him an ace caliber starter, yeah you're overrating him. If you call him among the best #3 starters in baseball, you're not. He's more valuable throwing 200 innings with a 3.50 ERA than Asdrubal Cabrera is playing Jeterrific defense and providing hollow offense. Given their respective financial obligations, it's not even close.

His 'replacement' would end up being Matt Adams or Matt Carpenter at 1b.

Matt Holliday is much better than those 2.

Unless you could get a legitimate long-term asset in return (i.e. Andrus), there's no way to trade Holliday. Nick Swisher will walk away with a better contract than Holliday at the end of this FA period, just watch.

The new television deals are about to obliterate the financial landscape, especially with the Dodgers looking to get involved. If you have a star caliber player locked up long-term on a deal that came before that, you'd be wise not to trade him.

:rolleyes:

Yeah, lets give up on the kid because after training as a reliever for 6 months, he ran out of gas at 175 innings. Hell, K/Inning starting pitchers with 95 mph stuff grow on trees, right? If you liked him for a single inning in April and May as a starter and now you're looking to bury him as a reliever, then you're an idiot.

Anyone that didn't expect Lynn to hit a wall had their head in the sand. You cannot train your arm for short bursts and rapid bouncebacks and then suddenly not face impediments when trying to throw 7/8 innings. Hell, you could see it October - he was very good for three innings and then the arm just wasn't there anymore. He got tired - shit happens.

Matheny is who to blame for Lance Lynn's October failures, not Lynn.

Before he hit a wall in October he was showing a routine ability to pitch into the 7th and maintain plus stuff. Lynn threw 100+ pitches in 16 of his first 23 starts before they shut him down, something he wasn't asked to do at all last season and something he wasn't told to prepare for before the season started. He still managed to so quite well with it.

Wong isn't even as good a leadoff candidate as his MI mate in Springfield, Greg Garcia. 44 BBs in nearly 600 PAs does not inspire great confidence in Wong's leadoff potential (Garcia looks like a great fit if he can keep progressing, though). Wong appears to be a natural #2 hitter.

Excuse me for not going all RAH RAH over a guy who crumpled like an empty beer can after the first time through the lineup in back-to-back playoff games.

It's wonderful that he pitches well in April. But those October games are sort of important sometimes.

You can't be serious. Are you just ignoring everything that doesn't fit your rant?

He had trained his arm for 9 months to be a reliever. Then he threw 175 innings and his arm got tired. Hell, the kid only threw 110 innings the season before. He trained as a reliever and threw 65 more innings than he threw the previous season; more than a 50% increase. He didn't even expect to be a starter (or even the backup starter) until 3 weeks before the regular season started.

GASP! What a useless one who sucks the penis that guy is. He should've totally been expected to throw 7 clean innings in playoff games when there simply wasn't anything left in his arm at all. The kid was spent, it was obvious to anyone that watched him pitch. He was going out there and having to go max-effort to get through the lineup once.

It was Mike Matheny's fault that Lynn failed, just as it would've been had he expected Boggs to go through the order twice.

Lynn's effort was borderline superhuman last season, but leave it to you to throw him under the bus for the failings of his manager. Afterall, you're the same guy that had to have Jason Motte shoved down your throat before you'd finally stop blaming him for sunsets.

You know, I really have better things to do this morning than arguing bad pitching with the Direcshun of Baseball. Have fun defending your superhuman pitcher who can't make it through four innings of playoff baseball. :whackit:

I'd probably bail out of an argument where I was giving up on a 25 year old pitcher that struck out 180 guys in 175 innings after training as a reliever in the offseason. Especially when that same guy showed that the pressure didn't bother him in the post-season the year before.

Yeah, you're probably right. You have a lot better things to do than look like a reactionary idiot.

I would disagree with the "much" better at least in Adams case. You have valid points and I'm not advocating giving the guy away. He is 32 however, a and we have probably already gotten the most out of that contract with him as we ever will on the back end. If someone needs a solid right handed stick at a reasonable rate we could expect a nice return. Adams has the potential to hit for Holliday type power 20-30 hr's a year, decent average (he sprays to all fields) .280 to .310 for example. You also get a slight upgrade defensively in both positions.

Again, don't give the guy away, but if you get the opportunity to significantly upgrade at SS, and maybe some solid left handed pitching help you have to take a serious look. I don't want to touch any of our young pitching right now.

You are a good fan, and he didn't end the season well at all (both physically and mentally), however his upside is still there if for only the back end of a rotation. Without him at the beginning of the year we get buried in the standings. If he comes in as a fat cow this spring and doesn't learn from his mistakes demote him to middle relief, otherwise he is a good problem to have. A horse at the back end of your rotation that has top end stuff. Garcia is the guy I am done with counting on right now. If he was right handed he would be checking your groceries at Kroger's by now.

Well, I'm sure our Resident Crazy Homeless Person Stats Guy will start screaming at me again from his street corner, but I just don't see how a young pitcher who starts breaking down halfway through the season is a "horse."

Yeah, innings pitched, K/9 and MPH.

Real complicated shit right there.

He is a solid 4th or 5th starter at a minimum, with a ceiling as a 1 or 2 guy. Hopefully his second full season as a starter will work out better and his arm won't turn into a noodle. That many innings on a young arm can be hell, even if he has no arm injury issues.

IMO Lynn is better going back to the bullpen. We really needed a guy this year who could come in the 5th or 6th inning. We have a glut of potential starters. I wouldn't propose trading any of them because we could always find ourselves without Carp, Waino Garcia or one of our other pitchers.

Why does anyone think Holiday can be traded? Why would he waive his no trade clause?

Those who would trade our top young pitchers for a 2 years of SS are not thinking long term.

These Billion $ cable contracts are going to change baseball. We have to think long term. Continue on our develop your own path. Emphasis on pitching. The great equalizer is young pitching. How we did it this year and last is how we are going to compete against billion $ contracts. Young pitching, under control position players, cheap vetrans and 4 or less big money contracts on the club at one time.

Hey, at least they gave Lynn a shot in the postseason and didn't pussy out like the Nats did with Stras. Let him build up his arm and prepare to be a starter, see what he does then.

Wishful thinking?

Happy Birthday to 2 Cardinal HOFers, Bob Gibson and Whitey Herzog.

gibby'll take the piece of cake on the inside of that plate.
hbd
sec

Saw a Costas interview of Gibby and McCarver. Gibby had a player hit a home run off him. that player retired and never faced Gibby again. 10 years later at a charity exhibition long after gibby retired, that player came up to bat, Gibby plunked him in the side.

@JoeStrauss Cardinals release Kyle McClellan, longest-tenured reliever.

Hope they bring him back cheaper, though it seems unlikely.

He was a good Cardinal and a solid dude. Hometown kid that did whatever the team asked of him whenever he could. There's a good chance that the bullets he took for the organization when WW went down in 2011 are what led to his current ailments.

Granted, he's been handsomely compensated for those bullets, but I hope the Cards give him a fair 'make-good' deal and a chance to stick on the squad.

I think the time as a starter ruined him. He was pretty good in 2009 and 2010 but not much since, although he won 12 as a starter. They filled his spot with backup catcher Rob Johnson from the Mets.

So we signed Choate, good or bad?

He was the consensus best LOOGY on the FA market. Several teams wanted him. We had to give him a 3 year deal instead of a 2 year deal to win the bidding war. Still not a lot of money.

Would have liked to grab some middle infield help but I guess we are rolling with Furcal?

yep, going to be a gap for us just like last year if Furcal goes down or falls off the cliff we are in trouble.

Stephen Drew is still out there, believe I read somewhere that we had some interest.

The Royals have a very deep pen, and I think we should be looking to make a trade with our AL "rivals" from across the state.

How bout, Crow for some sunflower seeds and a new infield tarp?

Too much money. We don't have the money. Berkman, Loshe and probably Shu are off the books but Freese, Craig and Motte are arbitration eligible and they are all going to get sizable raises. And this is Waino's last year. We need money to pay him.

You guys are going to be kicking yourself's for letting the Lee's Summit product, Rosenthal get out of the KC area.

Hell yeah, send Moore over here so we can rap....I mean, make reinforce his squad.

I love the idea of making a trade with Moore at this point. Does he want to send Ventura or Starling our way for Jake Westbrook? Westbrook is a rock-solid innings eater that can probably put up an ERA around 4 over 180ish innings.

I hear that Starling may never learn to hit major league sliders though. I mean, I guess we could send you Westbrook and Salas in exchange for Starling and Ventura. Seems pretty fair to me.

Westbrook would be the #2 pitcher on their staff.

This will get lost in the Royals thread, but isn't Skip a perfect trade candidate for KC?

They need a reasonably priced platoon OFer to play RF with Frenchy. Skips OBP against lefties is right around .360, which is damn good. He's a quality hitter with a nice eye that would be a boost for any lineup that doesn't have a true leadoff hitter (the Royals don't).

Better still, if by some chance Frenchy recaptures his 2011 form, Skip's definitely a better option at 2b for them than Chris Getz. Hell, he could probably start every day over getz if need b.

Skip's a great fit for that team. He's reasonably priced, gets on base and fills both of the holes the Royals have. They have 3 nice little SS prospects in the low minors (Calixte, Mondesi and Arteaga) and a young starter with a ton of team control already in place at SS.

Surely they'd be willing to give up one of those guys for a guy that would give them 500 quality ABs in a couple of positions they could really use some help.

I agree completely, but it seems DM is perfectly content throwing Frenchy out there every day.

Hell, DM's phone was probably ringing off the hook today with other GM's hoping he was still in a giving mood.

Posted a response in the Royals thread, but I'll leave it here, too.

Shumacher is an interesting/good option for KC. But Mondesi/Calixte would not be on the table if you're looking for a young SS. Artaega, a surplus reliever, or a depth-level starter would be the best bets.

Mondesi is a top 5 guy in the Royals system (Which now goes: Zimmer, Starling, Mondesi, Ventura, Bonifacio) and is coming off an age 16 season that draws legit comparisons to Jurickson Profar at the same age. He's a sure top 100 kid, possible top 50.

Calixte is a prospect the org loves. Great power, and put up very nice offensive numbers at High-A Wilmington (.752 OPS from a SS in the Carolina league pops out). He's also going to stick in the MI.

Calixte was my favorite because he was closest to being ready. Mondesi looked pretty outstanding as well, though he's so far away still that it's hard to know exactly what you have there. I just don't see how you can put any stock in his stats at all - he's just a scouting report and tools at this point.

Joe Kelly and Skip for Calixte? Kelly has a great arm and put up a 3.74 ERA as a starter despite a very short notice promotion. I see no reason to consider him a lesser prospect than Wade Davis, to be honest.

I wanted to build a trade proposal around Shelby Miller. Myers for Miller and work out the details later. His arm is just massive. I've heard he's got some maturity issues and wonder about his control, he seems a bit wild from the time I saw him which was limited. But a huge arm. Cheap & controllable too.

The Royals don't have enough to get Miller.

Joe Kelly would rock for KC. Would this Calixte be worth Kelly?

And Miller would've been ready to start this year (oh, and for 5 more after that).

I'm betting the Cardinals would've turned it down because they have Holliday in LF and Oscar Taveras in RF, but I would've taken them up on it. You can always find a home for a potential 40 HR bat.

Then again, if Miller does put it together, he's a no-shit ace starting pitcher. So there's that.

Maybe the Royals asked and the Cards said no. If the Royals didn't even bother, they really screwed the pooch.

Hard to say. I think you and I have a little bit of a disagreement on Kelly. I see him as a nice 4th starter or outstanding reliever. But as I've said before (maybe even here), I see a whole lot of Haren in the kid.

Like Haren, he went out there while his teammates were wetting the bed around him and just fired a power arsenal at a team that was in the process of putting the Cardinals away. In so doing, he was the most effective pitcher we had as the season slipped away.

If he refines a breaking pitch, he really could be a great one. If that happens then I'd have to guess that we 'lose' the trade. Then again, if he does and Calixte turns into a solid defensive SS with 15/15 skills and an .800 OPS, both sides benefit.

I think the Cards would be taking on substantially more risk and perhaps not even getting more upside. At the same time, their system is just loaded with power RHers and completely bereft of SS talent. If they have to 'lose' a trade to get that hole filled, I'm willing to do so if it only costs us another power righty.

LOL

maturity issues, yes. Control? Nope. He's got everything in his arsenal to be a #1.

With Myers gone? Unless they gave up their top 3 leftover or someone like Hosmer/Moustakas off their major league roster, they really don't.

The Cardinals and Royals fit well in the fringes (the have bit parts that match up well), but even before Myers left, they weren't a good fit for a major trade. The Cards are strong at the corners with Beltran, Holliday, Freese and Craig, then they have Carpenter, Adams and Taveras in the minors. That's a shitload of quality corner bats and that's where all the Royals legitimate trade value comes from.

His control completely abandoned him until about July. Nobody's really sure why, but it came back just as quickly as it left him.

While he recovered, the 'stumble' has to be seen as something of a red flag due to the fact that nobody's really figured out where it came from. Was he hiding an injury? Pouting? The club gave the standard 'mechanics' answer, it sure seemed severe for a simple mechanics issue.

As an aside, I have a homerun ball he gave up on the back fields at spring training during his first major league spring training. It's sitting in my 2006 WS beer stein in my office. If he turns into a badass, it would be kinda interesting to get it singed; you can see the smear over the trademark and everything. The guy that hit it freakin' blasted it.

My guess: he was thinking instead of pitching. He was given a "no shake off" rule about halfway through the season, and voila, his control came back. I have no worries about him, all young players go through growing pains.

Well, I specifically mentioned Myers for Miller so yes, I assume the guy was referring to Myers not being enough for Miller. (Since it was a rebuttal to my point)


If he was not responding to Myers and is looking only at the Royals now, then yes: they still have plenty of juice in the farm to get that done. The Royals still have one of the top farm systems. It would require Zimmer and probably Starling plus a bullpen piece at the current ML level but that's just a guess.

No. Cards farm system is stacked, they don't need your prospects. They wouldn't give up a #1 starter for bullpen help.

Oh, Shelby's a #1 starter now, is he? Looks like O's fans aren't the only ones who over-rate their prospects.

I don't think Calixte or Mondesi can be had for anything less than a big deal Kelly is a guy with some upside, but I can't see that being enough - even paired with a bench/util player (even a good one like SS).

Calixte will spend time at AA this year, and he's a good bet to pump up his value with big numbers offensively. KC is counting on that, from what I gather in a few places.

Not saying I agree with that, just that's where KC is at.

Mondesi is young and far away from the majors, but what he did at his age is pretty special. Putting up those numbers in rookie ball vs guys 2-3 years older than you is usually a great sign. Scouting reports are pretty glowing so far both in the field and regarding his bat speed/control.

He's been viewed as of having that potential since he's been drafted. He had a few tough months in AAA this season, then started turning the corner, earned a call up in September and performed quite well.

I know, he does have top-shelf potential. But it's just funny having someone say they won't trade us a "#1 starter" for our "prospects". Seems like they are all prospects until proven otherwise. Miller has some makeup issues I'd question before I put him as an everyday regular in the rotation, let alone an Adam Wainright type performer.

Funny.

I have a ball he used in Memphis to strike out Caleb Gindl of Nashville. Sitting next to the autographed Oscar Taveras ball I picked up in Frisco the night before.

We'll see how he turns out. I don't think the organization views him as untouchable as it was rumored that they would move him for the right deal, but I'd have to imagine it would have to be something that would be worth while.

I would think whoever loses out in the battle for the 5th starter spot-or the 4th and 5th spots if Garcia is not ready or has a setback- would either be used as trade bait or moved to the bullpen. Kelly has more upside then Lynn does at this point, with Rosenthal probably having more then Kelly and maybe at the same level as Shelby.

In short:
1a. Miller
1b. Martinez
3. Rosenthal
4. Kelly
5. Lynn

It's just so hard to trade an arm like Miller. Esp when you see what starting pitchers are going for on the FA market. As the Cards know, signing several the past few years to extensions or to come there and pitch. Ain't cheap.

Damn right.

Which is why Wainwright in all likely hood will be back due to Carp's contract being up. And I understand why Westbrook was brought back, but that still doesn't mean he isn't possible to move, I just would have rather seen Miller/Rosenthal get a better chance at a rotation spot.

I'm not a Cards fan (in fact I hate them) but I always liked Westbrook. I think he's a really solid guy in a MLB rotation. If you followed the Royals more closely you'd appreciate Westbrook much more. That said I'm sure Miller will get the 5th spot or assume it after the first injury.

Westbrook is what he is-a decent pitcher. He looks really good sometimes and looks like pure shit at other times. I would think giving the young kids a shot would be better in the long term, however, it could also just be used as a tactic to delay the arbitration clock(which I doubt is the case).

You could suspect that with many clubs, but the Cards normally don't play any of those type of games. They don't have to. If Miller was rotation-worthy he'd be in there without hesitation.

As I said, I doubt that it's the case, but you never know. Hopefully Taveras is up sooner rather than later.

WTF? Do you follow the development of the cardinals minor league system? So now he is not even worth being in the rotation?

Miller has projected as a #1 starter since he was drafted. He got humbled earlier in the year and he was lights out at the end. He was almost perfect in the playoffs.

No, can't say that I do.


Anyway, the Cards should take a flier on Luke Hochevar. Guy has great stuff and has several great starts every year. Really durable too. Cards are masters of reclamation projects, and I bet they'd turn him into a very good pitcher esp given that you could ease his anxieties a bit having him avoid the DH. He's susceptible to the big inning and that is reduced in the NL. I bet he'd win 10-12 games for them, easy.

We can debate this forever, but why on Earth would they trade a top prospect for more prospects? It's not like they have to rebuild, they're trying to win another World Series. If there's a move to be made for a big leaguer that would help with that, who knows if they'd trade Miller, but what you're suggesting is completely laughable.

Why is Wicked crapping in our thread?

It's what he does. The only thing he does.

We have a glut of young pitchers waiting their chance to start. But, anyways, Duncan was the magic behind the reclamation of washed up pitchers. He's retired now.

MLB Trade Rumors ‏@mlbtraderumors

Dodgers Acquire Skip Schumaker From Cardinals http://bit.ly/XQWitc #mlb

Unfortunately the the Reds just got stronger by acquiring Shin-Soo Choo this evening.

Nice trade to get Choo pretty much for nothing, though it will be interesting to see how he performs in CF.

Please be an infielder in return.

What's floating around Twitter is that the player the Cardinals received in return is Jake Lemmerman, a SS:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/mi...d=lemmer001jak

So with Hamilton going to the Angels, what does that do for them potentially not resigning Mike Trout?


Maybe we "redeal" for them taking Pujols and sign him to play in STL in a few?

5 year deal.

If anything, it proves that they will re-sign Trout. They've now built $25 million/season into their payroll structure and that $25 million will fall away the very off-season that Trout is looking to be a FA.

That's what sucks worst about this - it proves that there really is no end to the amount of money that Moreno can spend...and by God he's going to spend it. Trout will stay in Anaheim. Even if he doesn't, Anaheim will drive the price up to a point where there are only a couple of teams (notably NY and maybe a wild card like Chicago or Philly) that can compete at that price point.

Add in $6 billion for the Dodgers and its going to be hard to much harder to compete against that money. They can throw $200-$300 million at a player and if it doesn't pan out, so what. We got more cash to correct that mistake.

We cant make a mistake like that without hurting our future. It will hurt other clubs worse than us but since do we care that much about that part.;)

I've been saying since the Cubs got their big cable contract that the big equalizer in the playoffs is quality pitching. If you can get quality young pitching that you control at a reasonable rate. You can compete with the Dodgers/Angles/Yankees with their billion $ cable contracts.


And we got that in the pipeline this year and next making it to the big show. No rebuilding years for us.:thumb: