its addition by subtraction. Dewitt just needs to write that money off and get some young guys up here and see what they can do.

Dump

Cecil
Gregerson
Holland
Norris
Fowler


And Mr. Dewitt, the next time Mo wants to add a 30+ year old vet, tell him **** no.

Thanks,
The Fans

Add Leake into that list and that is a ton of money spent on what amouts to a pile of shit.

Holland and Cecil are Charlie Weis tier.

Elledge is ranked as our 21st prospect, so it's a lottery ticket.

I find that weird about Ozuna, when i sat in left field in April Ozuna seemed like a hell of a nice guy. He was constantly interacting with fans and tossing balls in the stands.

It could be that a lot of guys are stuffy assholes, too.

The Mariners system isn't very good.

He's probably borderline top 20 in ours. A pure reliever already being that high in the Ms system is more of an indictment on their minor leagues than a statement of what we got in return.

Ultimately the key is that the guy has options and Tui didn't. It gives them a lot more flexibility in the coming months as they try to run guys like Webb, etc... through to see what they have for next season.

Tui is fine but he's become a bit of an anchor in that we can't send him down and we don't see him as more than a 7th inning guy. We also need some roster room on the 25 for some youth development.

I like the trade overall - but it's really trading Tui for someone that is probably going to have a career very similar to Tui's over the long haul. I think he'll be a little better because his fastball actually moves, but don't go expecting Craig Kimbrel or anything.

I'm sure a lot of players are alcoholics. Hyped up after a game. Go to the local bars and have women throw them self’s at you. Or if your faithful to the wife, you drink to pass the alone time. The players in the 50’s and 60’s admitted to staying out all night drinking and popping speed the next day to function.

Humans today are still the same basic humans from that era. A 24 year old is just not going to have the maturity to make the right choices they will have at 42.

i’ll take our 21st best prospect over Tui any day. We know what Tui is. Another prospect may someday be better than Tui.

you and Hamas go to fangraphs. From there......

They seem to think that we could possibly get Andujar and Devers for Carp. BS rumor or a possibility?

Right now I would take anything the Yanks or Astros or anybody else looking for a hitter to get rid of Ozuna. We are stuck with Fowler unless they go the release route. Go young and athletic and see what you have before heading into the offseason.

We have as much chance of miraculously making the playoffs with Bader, Pham, O’Neill and Martinez in the outfield as with Fowler and Ozuna.

Unfortunately the best we can hope for is some sanity on where Ozuna bats and maybe a few more rest days for him. Which means Bader rots on the bench and our best sluggingoutfielder in the minors right now continues to crush in obscurity.

While cutting dead weight is a positive thing, that’s like re-arranging chairs on the Titanic.

I want, realistically, JMart, one of Wacha/Mikolas/CMart traded(I changed my view on keeping Mikolas), as well as Pham and Norris traded.

The only position players I’d prefer to not see traded are Marp, DeJong, Yadi, and Ozuna.

Twitter to find some opinions from the trading team's fans, then to team blogs. Then if I can find some good scouting service reports and youtube. Nothing remarkably complicated.


Carpenter for Devers would be ballsy as ****, man. I mean that's the kind of move that can get a GM fired. But then again, Moe should be about ready to get fired anyway so if that's the kind of move he needs to make to save his job, he should try it.

Andujar? Nah, I don't see the ceiling that I see with Devers. Devers is just so damn young. Adujar is young as well but there's a big difference between 21 and 23. And Devers is a lefty. But the concern with Devers is whether he can stay at 3b defensively and if he can't, man that's a disaster. There doesn't appear to be that concern with Andujar.

I'd have Oquendo watch Devers on film and if says he can fix him, I'd see if I could get Groom included and pull the trigger. Andujar...well I'd swing hard and see if they'd gimme Andujar and Sheffield. If so, I'd take it. I don't think they'd bite though.

I wonder if Martinez for Derek Fisher of the Astros gets any traction...

Mo isn’t going anywhere unless he pisses off ownership.

He’s been following DeWitt’s orders and honestly hasn’t ****ed up the team long term in addition to being competent with regards to the draft.

No one thought Fowler would regress this bad or that Ozuna would be preforming well below his career average. The only thing I think you can fault for Mo in hindsight is the bullpen, but again, he tried addressing that and nothing worked out aside from Norris. Leone got hurt as well as Gregerson. Holland sucked.

Additionally, Marp had a horrible streak for a month and a half.

DeWitt either has to give Mo approval to spend more or tank. Otherwise, seasons from 2016 to now, will be what the norm is.

It’s a ****ing miracle they’re even .500 given that 60% of their initial rotation is on the DL and how bad Fowler and Ozuna have under performed in addition to missing DeJong and Yadi for extended periods of time.

Mo shouldn’t be on the hot seat until we see what the plans are for the present and the future. If he believes this roster is like the 2015 Blue Jays, then go all in. If not, sell and plan for the future.

I heard on a podcast this afternoon a clip they played from the Matheny firing press conference in which Mo said “my job is to make Mr. Dewitt money.” They had 40K+ last homestand. Team value up to $1.9 BILLION. Mo ain’t going to be fired this off season.

This is where DeWitt needs to not be a dumbass. Any idiot can run a profitable organization in this climate; what's harder is to run a good one. Mo has dragged this team down to Carl Peterson levels.

He was talking about being “President of baseball operations”. He’s not the GM. Now we all know he calls the shots on trades, FA’s etc. so that’s just BS. I guess the current “GM” came up with a new formula to identify players. Only the Cardinals have it as long as he’s the “GM”. No matter WTF is up with that relationship, this shit is on Mo.

Watching the MLB broadcast. Morsei just said Goold told him that the last time the Cardinals were sellers at the deadline was 1990 when they traded Willie McGee.

Wait till Mo hires his version of Gunther and signs Elvis Grbac before you say that.

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=...ng&w=350&h=254

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=...ng&w=350&h=254

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=...ng&w=350&h=254

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=...ng&w=350&h=254

I didn’t know the DFA’d Lyons. I thought he was hurt? Going to the minors? Why not just send him to the minors and see if he gets right? I don’t think Lyons was ever going to be a reliable bullpen pieces, but if He never shows anything, what are you out? What am I missing?

I think Matheny was DeWitt's guy.

Fowler is not a good comparison for Grbac.

I'll give you Leake and Holland.

Out of options. Had to DFA him if he wouldn't agree to DL stint. DFA allows them to send him to the minors if he's not claimed on waivers and agrees to reassignment.

Not saying he shouldn't have been dumped but Leake has been exactly that medicore innings eater for Seattle but the Cards are now paying for. Also that meh WAR production that was the high end of what he'd done in the past when the Cards paid him so much.

We have to give it up to Mo. Thats one thing Mo has done well over the years. Whoever he traded or let go, has not come back to bite him in the ass. Most of his trades were buying in mid-season deadline trades. When the sellers usually rapes the buyer.

We are suffering now from Mo's bonehead FA signing's. He has never been good at FA signings. But, his trades are better.

Rasmus, Brett Wallace got us the 2011 World Series. So far it looks like in the Ozuna trade we didn't give up All-Stars.

Where Mo has screwed up was the trades that didn't happen. Prospects lose value. Perceived talent doesn't pan out.

Same with FA. He has went "safe". Vets who have done it before. Overpaid. And then missed on not signing a player, he should have signed(Scherzer).

Overall its not a good track record. He has made a ton of money for his boss. Not many business's fire employees who are making them a ton of money. In the end, he's not going anywhere.

Viva el Birdos article on Cardinal players trade values


https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2018/7/...dline-analysis

I wonder how long the conversation would be with the Brewers when you asked for Keston Hiura and offered Tommy Pham.

What’s Norris’s trade value right now? We don’t need him for the next 6 weeks. No way are we signing him next year. Someone wants to give us a prospect, why would we not oblige them?

Eighty percent of Familia?

Pull the trigger. Get us another high ceiling but huge gamble player. More lottery tickets is better than 6 weeks of Norris. Who knows maybe one of them sticks later. Ya never know.

My fiance is pissed about the idea of trading Ozuna -- she bought me the Saturday jersey in his namesake for Christmas.

The New York Yankees tonight announced that they have acquired right-handed hitting 1B Luke Voit and international signing bonus pool money from the St. Louis Cardinals in exchange for LHP Chasen Shreve and RHP Giovanny Gallegos.

Very brief research shows they both suck.

So does Voit. :hmmm:

It's just kind of a trade, I guess. A 'meh' lefty reliever and an oldish righty for AAA for a 'meh' first baseman.

BRC might have a Tino Martinez jersey to swap with you or maybe even a vintage Bob Horner.

ROFLActually I've only owned 1 Cardinals jersey in the last 25 years, a Bob Gibson. Too hot to wear to games. Always wear a T-Shirt.

Never buy a jersey of a player unless they are retired or dead.

O’Neil has a 1.100 OPS in AAA. Is there a #/% that is “usual” when a player transitions from AAA to the majors? What OPS can we expect?

Depends on whether his recent k/B.B. trends hold true at his next call up. If so, he could be a .750 to .850 OPS guy. The more he can walk the more he will get pitches to mash.

I've recently come to a conclusion: baseball prospects are like NFL prospects times two. Here's what I mean:

Consider the bust rate of the draft and how often scouts are wrong in football. For football players, that happens twice, but we really only hear about it once (unless you follow a team's CFB recruiting closely).

I think it happens three times in baseball. Projections from the draft to A-ball, from A-ball to AA/AAA, and from AA/AAA to the bigs. Every time the projections get a little more accurate because there is more data to judge from (and the competition is better), but there is still huge variance. IMO, that's why you have such a difficult time projecting stars, not only from the draft, but even among those who transition to the bigs.

Consider the Cardinals:

When Oscar Taveras reached MLB, all of a sudden his swing looked a lot longer than it seemed in the minors. He was probably never going to be the threat he seemed like in the minors.

Matt Carpenter was a 12 homer guy through the system and his first several years in the bigs, and is now a 25-30 homer guy.

Carlos Martinez was supposed to have wipeout stuff, but as strikeout numbers have gone up, he's middle of the pack (and if you look at his minor league #s, you'd see someone who only struck out an average number of players).

Point being: all of these projection systems are flawed. Sometimes we assume growth in a player that never happens (Martinez), other times we don't see growth that occurs as they mature or make slight alterations to their swing (Carpenter), and there are yet other times where the equalization of talent levels reveals deeper flaws within a player's game (Taveras, Byron Buxton, Miguel Sano, Jurickson Profar, Delmon Young, Brandon Wood, Gregory Polanco, the list goes on forever).

This is a long way of saying that we don't really know with any great certainty. There are a few things that are obvious: O'Neill will strike out a ton in the majors, and he'll probably walk about 8-12 percent of the time. Defense usually projects pretty well, which is why you've seen some of us be more pessimistic on Munoz than you are. O'Neill could end up being a slightly better version of Grichuk. You could look at his minor league numbers, which have ratios similar to Aaron Judge with far better power totals (seriously, Judge hit 76 homers in 340 minor league games, O'Neill has 145 in 516 games) and think that maybe he'll hit with 45 HR power and be a 7 WAR player, but that's pretty damned unlikely (and the Yankees would have never guessed it would have happened with Judge). You'll see a lot of sabermetrically-inclined people use a Gaussian/normal distribution to say that they'll end up with this many WAR this percent of the time, but it's really just a cover for admitting ignorance.

:clap: Thanks for the info. Informative.

To extrapolate a plan with this info, a GM should be trading top prospects for proven or semi-established MLB players. correct? That would be the safest route and keep whatever "value" your farm system has to benefit the MLB team?

Depends on the team and really the era.

What you're talking about is the 'Walt Jocketty' model. Frankly, that model just might be dead. You'd be hard-pressed to find a team that has recently been built around acquisitions outside of the system with any success. I mean shit, even the Yankees are building from within. The Bosox are probably the closest you'll find and they only required a $230 million payroll, not to mention dealing a prospect they paid $50 million to acquire in order to get Sale. That model is simply cost prohibitive these days in most ways.

If you're sitting on a 90 win team with a chance to do damage in October - sure, the cost of rental players has never been lower. The fact that Arizona was able to get JD Martinez for a bucket of balls last year still astounds me. And Machado didn't yield a king's ransom either. Push some chips in when you're close, no question.

But if your operating premise is just shipping guys like Knizner out for #4 starters and 2 win infielders...you're gonna be a really mediocre team for a really long time. Your floor will come up but your ceiling will be for shit.

Rockies and Red Sox said to be asking around.

So to my eyes, someone like Jordan Patterson is about what we could expect from the Rockies. Way overaged in AAA but a lefty stick with some ability to play OF/1b. Hits for power but has a lot of swing/miss in his game. He's completely blocked in Colorado.

If you could move Norris for a lefthanded stick with power that could contribute off the bench right away and form part of a viable platoon with Bader (sorta) going forward, you'd have to consider that a win. The Rox have no real use for him (Ramos would slide right into his role at 1b in AAA) apart from trade capital and the Cardinals need a lefthanded bat in the worst way.

Makes sense from my chair.

I like all these breathless posts of trade rumors on the internet. This is “water is wet” information.

The Cardinals are receiving trade inquiries into closer Bud Norris, reports Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, with the Rockies and Red Sox among the teams that have shown interest to this point. In a second column, Goold adds that the club is “open to discussing offers” for both Norris and first baseman/outfielder Jose Martinez.

You have to be able to scout your own players extremely well and develop the lottery tickets, but you're probably going to need to tank or get lucky at this point.

There aren't really stupid front offices anymore, so to further what DJ said, you can't fleece bad ones, which is how Jocketty operated.

Well you know what they say about finding the sucker at the table...

if you can’t use or outsmart other GM’s on a regular basis then it seems that the only long term strategy that will work in 2018 is drafting and developing your own players. And or having plenty of money to buy players or cover for mistakes.

Yet, in your previous posts you outlined the dangers of selling too low or buying too high with prospects. Those flaws would sink the whole plan resulting in a deficit of talent to compete. Pretty much what’s currently happening. :shake:

It would seem to me that it takes a whole organization now and not just a great GM to be successful. The Cardinals seem to develop and or develop players better than the average team.

Also you would need to add new and fresh approaches to your overall staff to keep current on trends or stay ahead of the other teams. Unknown if that’s happening.

Yup. Welcome to the new baseball. It's not the NFL, where it seems like half of the franchises are still run by meathead ****tards, but the central premise of Moneyball still rings true: you have to find undervalued assets.

At this point, everyone is focusing on launch angle and saying **** strikeouts. To me, it seems like there is a glaringly obvious approach a team could make, since homers are in such demand: find guys with speed who play good defense and make contact. Prevent runs and put pressure on the other teams on the basepaths. Basically, Whiteyball.

Just heard on the radio that Lynn got traded to the Yankmees.

Good news if you hate New York, I guess. :D

Had to look him up to see if he had been better recently but July has been his 2nd worst month while giving up 5 HRs and his lowest K/9 total by far.

Rothschild must see something he can fix because I dont know why you would want him on your roster when you are trying to catch the Red Sox and avoid a 1 game wildcard.

His velocity, swinging strike rate, contact % out of the zone, and zone contact percentage are all better than his career norms. He's been done in by control issues, and likely elevating his sinker, which contributes to the increased HR-FB%. If they can fix his control, he's likely going to be the same 3-3.5 win pitcher he was for several years in St. Louis.

Joe West is doing a fantastic Enrico Palazzo impression tonight. :facepalm:

I have a buddy down here who’s a Rays fan text me just now to ask about O’neil. Is his power real?

Rumor among Rays fans is O’Neil/Kelley/Mercado for Archer.

I sure hope this is just another BS rumor. Trading our only legitimate power hitter for a way over rated pitcher in a season that’s going nowhere would suck so bad. But a typical Mo move. :#

Trading for Archer given the price being rumored would be so brutal and the last thing this team needs.

What’s Boston got they would give up for Norris?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Red Sox are reportedly interested in Cardinals closer Bud Norris. <br><br>MLB Trade Deadline about 24 hours away. <a href="https://t.co/xgMvXLwOBX">https://t.co/xgMvXLwOBX</a> <a href="https://t.co/8CUVfZdiLP">pic.twitter.com/8CUVfZdiLP</a></p>&mdash; NBC Sports Boston (@NBCSBoston) <a href="https://twitter.com/NBCSBoston/status/1024001002536611847?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 30, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

he did say it was just a rumor going around on his Rays board.

this is why the Rays still have Archer. Supposedly they are wanting a haul like Archer is Scherzer level.

Things less ridiculous than Chris Archer, ace starter:

The Titanic's reputation as unsinkable
Mao's Great Leap Forward as a humanitarian model
Mack Rhoades, athletic director
Rich Scanlon as an impact linebacker


There is no more overrated player in sports, period, than Chris Archer. He's a #3/#4 starter because his FIP and xFIP are horrendously overrated by his desire to go 8 pitches to every batter to bump up his K-rate. He really should be a closer.

I would give them a package of Carson Kelly, Junior Fernandez, and some past first round disappointment, like Nick Plummer, who will never amount to anything, and the Cardinals should probably push them for relief help coming back.

FWIW, neither O’Neill or Kelly played tonight.

That's what we traded for, you bald bastard. Keep doing that.

Ozuna walk off HR. Nice to see him showing signs of life.

Neither has Pham. Hasn't even PH.

I dont care if they trade Kelly and if you can move him and another part for Archer who likely has more leaguewide value, I'm fine with that as a form of arbitrage. Turn two nickels into a dime - this organization needs that.

But they need to finish the job and package Archer with Martinez, etc... and get a genuine young talent. Archer as a player does nothing for this organization but as a trade chip he might.

That said, I think Phams gone and O'Neill is his likely replacement.

Mabry just needed more time...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cardinals?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cardinals</a> (and other teams) are big believers in the kinetic chain, well here is the kinetic chain in action: The body will find the weakest point. Martinez has had lat trouble (muscle into shoulder), oblique trouble (muscle along side of torso), and now shoulder strain.</p>&mdash; Derrick Goold (@dgoold) <a href="https://twitter.com/dgoold/status/1024108901455880193?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 31, 2018</a></blockquote>
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Now, explain this to me:

If the Cardinals believe in the kinetic chain, why are they bringing him back after a minimal stay on the DL when he's had multiple injuries to that kinetic chain? ****, their doctors are so goddamned incompetent. They must sort by physicians with the greatest number of malpractice settlements.

its really stupid. Both times rushed back ASAP. And for what? We are not in a pennant race. And Meathead would have let Martinez talk him into to staying in to finish the inning despite his fastball dropping to 90 MPH.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">According to a source, the Nationals are making it known to other teams that Bryce Harper is indeed available.</p>&mdash; Mark Feinsand (@Feinsand) <a href="https://twitter.com/Feinsand/status/1024119631102001154?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 31, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

looks like he quit lunching at the ball to my layman eye anyway.

According to what I read somewhere he is now looking at the ball with both eyes, not just one. I'm not shitting .

:clap: Doubt they would get jack shit for Turdy, but it's better than him wasting a starting spot.

Hate to say I told you so, but..

Hometown paper throwing shade on Archer as an "Ace".


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NEW: Chris Archer hasn&#39;t become the ace you&#39;d thought he&#39;d be. Why? The answer in two simple charts ... <a href="https://t.co/IHOTe0l71I">https://t.co/IHOTe0l71I</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Rays?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Rays</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MLBTradeDeadline?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#MLBTradeDeadline</a></p>&mdash; Thomas Bassinger (@tometrics) <a href="https://twitter.com/tometrics/status/1024272495350829056?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 31, 2018</a></blockquote>
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JD,

ESPN speculating the landing spot for Harper is the Cubs or Dodgers. You on board with that?

I've said it before, but you really need to watch far more Archer starts than you have reason to as a Cardinals fan to understand why he's overrated. That's a baseball nerd/fantasy baseball problem.

I watched Archer closely the last few years because of my money FBB league. He's simply not a good pitcher. He quits on too many ABs and too many games. He is so hell-bent on getting strikeouts that he nibbles early in counts. Then if he can't get you to K and he's closing in on a walk, he'll simply fire a cock-shot for you to hammer. He gives in to hitters way too often.

And in games where he's either comfortable that he's going to win or has convinced himself that he's going to lose, he'll just start to coast and get hit. Worse still, if his team does manage to change the likely outcome, he can't turn it back on so if he's already entered his 'coast' mode and the team comes back, he just goes out there and gives the runs right back.

He's a #3 starter. You look at what Price was doing as a true ace in TB and then what Snell was doing this year before his injury and you see that it isn't a 'Rays' problem or an AL East problem, it's just a Chris Archer problem. He simply is not as good as his strikeout rate says he is.

And when you look past his strikeout rate you see a guy that just isn't a guy you desperately need, especially as he nears 30 yrs old.

The Rays screwed up badly not trading him 2 years ago. They aren't going to buffalo enough teams to get a massive return. Their only hope is that Mozeliak is as stupid as Rays fans/bloggers seem to think he is. The sad truth is...he might be.

They'll never do it, but they should sell off everything of value

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Source: Tommy Pham has been traded to the Rays.</p>&mdash; Jeff Passan (@JeffPassan) <a href="https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1024305925094559744?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 31, 2018</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Source: Chris Archer is not going back to St. Louis in the deal that is sending Tommy Pham to the Rays.</p>&mdash; Jeff Passan (@JeffPassan) <a href="https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1024306191768403968?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 31, 2018</a></blockquote>
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Pham for 2 minor league guys.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Rays?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Rays</a> trade Justin Williams, Genesis Cabrera and Roel Ramirez to <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cardinals?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cardinals</a> for Pham and international slot money</p>&mdash; Marc Topkin (@TBTimes_Rays) <a href="https://twitter.com/TBTimes_Rays/status/1024306850911506436?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 31, 2018</a></blockquote>
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I can't believe Mo did it. I give him props for trading Pham. Of the three names we got back, what are their rankings/ceiling?

PGM is the happiest person alive today

I was just about to post this.

But this does prove PGM wrong, Pham was not worthless, he was worth 3 minor leaguers . :D

So I guess we can call developing Cabrera....... Project Genesis! :D