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I actually was arguing with someone on Twitter the other day about Salvy. Was talking about if it wasn't for Ohtani and Vlad, Sal might have a legit argument for AL MVP. My argument was based on, of course, his offense and his strong defense at a high value defensive position. This guy said he sucks defensively and is the worst defensive catcher in baseball. Linked FG's pitch framing data. :facepalm: Yes, he is at the bottom of the league in pitch framing, but he is basically elite or near the top of EVERY other defensive categorie for catchers. Top 5 in caught stealing %, passed balls (least), errors (least), DWAR, etc. It's just ****ing stupid this notion that pitch framing should be weighted above all other defensive metrics for catchers. I mean, he's a multiple gold glove winner for a reason. And what about Yadi? Anyone think he sucks defensively? Of course not. Guess what? He's near the bottom at pitch framing this year as well. The whole argument about pitch framing pisses me off. |
It’s so dumb I don’t even dignify it, I use bWAR for catchers. FG is great but framing is beyond f**** reeruned and I’ve read their research on it, and am not swayed
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And that's one of the huge problems with WAR, especially since it has become or is becoming the standard to compare players across eras. The defensive component even for current players is questionable--but we're supposed to believe they have anything close to accurate data for defense for past players? We're supposed to believe they can really compute Total Zone Rating and Defensive Runs Saved for old timers? They really have the data for pitch framing for more recent guys like Gary Carter and Johnny Bench? That's who he'll be compared to, but there's no way they have the same data available. |
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Fangraphs is awesome, but some of its defensive metrics are just silly. Their OF and IF defense ratings are pretty great (with the exception of how much value they assign to 1B for range, which is largely dependent on positioning for most 1B). But C is just... dumb. |
So if pitch framing is such an important component of fWAR for catchers, how do they address it for players who pre-dated all the current pitch tracking?
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The infield is currently: Adalberto Mondesi at third, Nicky Lopez at short, and Whit Merrifield at second.</p>— Alec Lewis (@alec_lewis) <a href="https://twitter.com/alec_lewis/status/1432815897568219143?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 31, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk |
Mondi and Kowar both on the field at the K tonight, so I guess that answers part of the roster expansion question.
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How many innings before Mondesi spontaneously combusts? I'll say 4.
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Mondo back for a cup of coffee
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Hmmmm
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">We've got ourselves an MJ at third sighting. <a href="https://t.co/f7YKUHe0KR">https://t.co/f7YKUHe0KR</a></p>— David Lesky (@DBLesky) <a href="https://twitter.com/DBLesky/status/1432844453828517890?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 31, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> |
I completely agree with you all about the framing thing. It seems really ****ing stupid that framing would be so highly weighted in any calculation. Like how many times is a catcher going to get a ball called a strike over the course of a game? How many of those would equal 1 WAR? Seems pretty stupid that framing would be more important than throwing out base runners, since a catcher with a cannon will keep his opponents from trying to steal or get too big of a lead.
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They don’t. They guess. |
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