That I'm on board with. It's a shame his HC regime had to be under Franchise Killer Pioli. I don't know if he would have been good at HC, but he had no chance under Pioli.

However that job becomes easier when you have Big Ben and Brown.

Dick Vermeil had 5 years. 5 drafts, 38 picks, and only 6 amounted to literally anything (I'm being VERY generous with Jimmy Wilkerson. And that includes a punter). Herm had 3 years and brought in 7 (and that's being very generous leaving Dorsey and Page off the list).

Dick Vermeil built a roster of long-term players because he spent a shitload on free agents. Free agents are known commodities. Vermeil gave big contracts to: Trent Green, Priest, Wiegmann, Roaf, Kennison, Morton, Shawn Barber, Dexter McCleon, Patrick Surtain, Kendrell Bell, Carlos Hall, John Welbourn, Sammy Knight. 13 PLAYERS. Herm spent on Damion McIntosh, Ty Law, and Napoleon Harris. DV's personnel success came from signing a LOT of high-priced talent, and hemmoraging the cap to do so.

Being an axe man wasn't easy. Again, Vermeil/Peterson restructured these contracts to death and gave long-term contracts to geriatrics, so there was a massive amount of dead money. And it's well known that Herm went over peterson's head and direct to Clark Hunt to get the axes laid down. In an NFL where coaches get blamed for 1 bad season, it was incredibly bold for Herm to accept losing seasons to clean up the roster.

It does get easier, but he also did a spectacular job with Martavius Bryant and now Sammie Coates. And transitioning Big Ben into a pocket QB wasn't easy, but he did it extremely well. It would be pretty cool to see him coach for a GM like Dorsey.

Doesn't matter how they came. Vermiel had more young guys that had an NFL career than Herm. As bad as Vermiel was at drafting -was he even involved? I don't know - Herm was as bad at FA pickups. Like I said, there were more guys that played 3 years when Vermiel was done than Herm. That's embarrassing.

And yes, being an axe man is easy if you don't give a flying feces about winning. It's easy. Trade anything with value. Cut everyone else, sign whomever the **** walks in the door. Crow about being young. Play shit ball. Easy peasy.

Buehler_445 needs less red bull on tractor days....

No Red Bull. Eating sunflower seeds to stay awake. And apparently fighting the ONE GUY that thinks Herm is anything above tunny hog shit.

It's not embarrassing. Vermeil was trying to win games. Herm was trying to rebuild. Herm didn't have any major free agent pickups because he wasn't trying. That's pretty unfair to compare a guy with a blank check and bank full of money and loans to a guy who is $25M in debt and told he has to sell his house, his car, everything to clean up his finances -- when you're forced to sell your house, you're not exactly looking to spend on luxury items.

If Herm was given 5 years and was allowed 13 high priced free agents, we'll see how he would have done. I'm glad he didn't get 5 years. But to blame him for sitting on not just a hill, but a mountain of someone else's debt?

And no, rebuilding isn't easy. A coach has to swallow a lot of pride and accept losses. The easier thing to do would have been to convince Peterson to pay for a few high-priced band-aids. He could have made that a 6-10 team. Sadly, in KC we would look more fondly on a band-aided 7-9 team that ****ed over our future than a 2-14 team that set us up nicely for the future. And in the case of Herm, he had to rebel against his GM to make it happen. You may not agree with what moves he made, but without a shadow of a doubt, he made the right move by demolishing that roster. Any team who made that decision would have had a very bad season for probably 2 or 3 years. I don't know how it's even a debate that blowing up Vermeil's remaining roster was completely the right thing to do.

Herm didn't rebuild shit. The franchise wasn't set up nicely for the future. Sure cap wasn't bad, but theee was no talent. That's not set up. That's not rebuilt. That's driving 100MPH into a tree with a paid for sports car. Sure you don't owe money on the car, but it isn't worth a damn thing.

To go along with your analogy, just because a dude cleans up debt doesn't mean he is making sound financial decisions. Paying 1,200 a month for a refrigerator box is dumb. Yes it's better than $2,500/month house payments. It it's still a shit decision.

Herm took a mediocre to above average team and basically made them an expansion team.

1. No money tied up.
2. No talent
3. No winning culture, nothing to build on.
4. A couple extra picks.

That's an expansion team man. You're the only guy I know that will say, sure. I'd like to be an expansion team.

The Chiefs aren't the only idiots to overpay for old guys. It doesn't necessitate wrecking the ****ing franchise.

And I'm not saying making major changes to Vermiels roster was inherently bad. Filling it with the jokers Herm did was bad. Every regime change brings personnel change. If you fill up the team with garbage, you're a shot personnel guy. Herm is a shit personnel guy.

Not everyone here likes Herm. For good reason. But I know even the biggest Herm haters mostly recognize that the team Herm inherited... there was no choice but to wrecking ball that shit. Not fix it. Blow it up to smithereens and start over.

Herm didn't inherit a mediocre to average team as much as you want to say it. He inherited a team of grossly overpaid, expensive but uncuttable geriatrics. A better coach could have gotten more out of them than Herm did in year 1 (though getting to the playoffs behind Damon Huard is much better than some coaches would do). But after that year or 2, not even Bill Bellichick could have saved this team quickly. You act as if he inherited a workable team then crushed it. He inherited a team that was 1 snowball away from an avalanche.

And the Chiefs didn't just "pay for old guys" during the Vermeil era. They stockpiled on old veterans. Gave old veterans like Wesley and Woods enormous long-term deals that handcuffed them WAY beyond their prime. And to afford their drunk spending binge, they restructured the living hell out of contracts like Trent Green and Priest Holmes to the point where they were exploding back-end timebombs. It was a perfect storm that came from a GM intent on milking that team dry for 2 last playoff runs in 2004 and 2005. This was not just some ordinary cap purge. This was the Titanic. Not only were they $25M over the cap (remember... this was 10 years ago -- that is enormous), they were badly handcuffed to unworkable contracts.

For reference:
Here is what the GM inherited. I am saying "GM" because Scott Pioli wrecking that defense apart to install a 3-4 was incredibly stupid:

Defense:
DL: Hali-Tyler/Ron Edwards-Dorsey-McBride
LBs: Demorrio Williams-Shit-DJ
CB: Carr-Flowers
S: Page-Pollard

Offense:
QB: No QB
OL: Albert-Waters-Wade Smith-McIntosh-Barry Richardson
RB: Charles/LJ
WR: Bowe-shit-shit
TE: Tony Gonzalez

The Chiefs needed a QB, 1 or 2 WRs, 2 OL (at least), 2 LBs, 1-2 DL. That's 7-8 new starters.

Sound familiar? We've seen GMs fill that type of roster before. With $7M, John Dorsey brought in a QB, a WR (Avery), a Guard (Schwartz), a DT (Devito), an ILB (Jordan), a CB (Sean Smith). In addition to drafting 2 starters (Fisher, Kelce/Fasano). That's 8 new starters.

Imagine what Dorsey would have done with $50M in cap space if he inherited that roster above (in 2009 cap money).

You are still totally missing the point. You can deflect blame to Vermiel all you want but the bottom line is the dudes Herm brought in were trash. Sure he couldn't go bring in Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison for the offense and Ed Reed and Ray Lewis for the defense but that does not excuse the trash he brought in.

For ****s sake, Dorsey brought in six guys off the waiver wire that got meaningful snaps on a playoff team. Just because you aren't in the market for marquee free agents does not excuse bringing in absolute ****ing trash players that no GM of any team wants.

Oh, god. We've got to get Reerun to deliver a ****ing stack of autographed 8x10s.

I never said herm was a personnel genius. I thought he was solid but unspectacular. Thats different from trash.

It takes an elite personnel guy to build off a bare roster using only draft picks and pulling everything from the scrap heap. So if that's the knock on him, that's really unfair expectations. Herm made the right call to demolish the roster. He and kuharich were pretty effective in drafting (brought in more talent in 3 years than Pioli did in 4 yrs...vermeil in 5yrs). And while he didn't bring in much free agent talent, he also purposely chose not to and deserves credit for his restraint.

I'm not comparing herm with the best. But you're comparing him to the worst, and that just aient. I'm not missing the point at all. I don't believe bandaiding the roster was even an option. So if the only option is to build through the draft and the scrap pile, I recognize that that is going to be a lot longer and more difficult process to find talent than if you binged on proven free agents or inherited a mega roster from your predecessor.

Dude. You are misremembering. It's late and I have to be out early tomorrow but dig up the thread the last time we debated this. He'll look it up yourself, the roster when he was done was a joke. Making the call to blow it up is one thing actually doing it in an effective manner is quite another. Herm was like a bear cub playing with his dick. He was a total and abject failure. He had a handful of good players after 3 years!

It's insane. Give it up.

I'm off to bed.