There's a cool story I heard about the bread turning into real flesh one time back in like 800ad. In the 70's, a scientist went to the vatican to study this stupid "flesh". He converted a few days later.

I'm sure it's completely true.

It is. I saw it on TV. I assume they check their facts.

On a logical level, none of us should exist as matter can never be created. Yet something or Someone had to create the initial matter against all logic.

So are you stating that you believe logically, you truly don't exist? Or is logic only convenient when applied to sacraments?

He visited Peter Griffin the other day. Of course he was kidknapped, but he didn't seem to mind.

But, maybe it was just make believe. I really couldn't tell.

Oh it was ON TV??!? It must be true.

Logically, someone or something had to create us because we exist.

Sacraments are bread and wine. A baker and a winemaker created them.

He prays and goes to mass and meets people and probably goes to meetings. He's 84? years old though, and everyday he wakes up, his body aching from Parkinson's so bad, he hurts all over. And everyday he wakes up, the only thing he has on his mind is love and how great God and the world is.

Oh no!!!!!


NOT PLUMBERS TOO!!!!!

You just described my grandfather. Would you like to meet him? He's a hell of a lot closer to you than the Pope.

I don't see why people shit on other peoples religions. Are you really so insecure about your own faith/or lack there of that you have to shit on other peoples? Pretty weak.

Sorry, I think I made a mistake. The Pope is actually older than 82.

He's 85. Huge difference there!

I bet your grandfather served in WWII...Am I right?

Indeed you are. He fought in Italy and Africa.

Did he ever get shot?

Nope.

No, he's 84.

Well! There's a difference. The Pope was shot when he was 61.

Almost 85....whatever...

MY GAWD. The Pope was shot. HE IS A GREAT MAN!

True

True!

You're learning. :thumb:

Check my sig, Jenson. You like?

pft, dorks

Not really. Why?

The music part, silly.

Oh, before it didn't say that. Yes, very nice.

I recieved communion for 20 years and it always tasted like stale bread to me unless they dipped in the wine, then it tasted like stale bread dipped into wine. I guess call me goofy but I have tasted real blood before and I'm convinced that it was never literally flesh and blood. I do know for a fact that in the Catholic Bible it is strickly forbidden to literally drink blood.(Gen. 9:4;Lev.17:10;Acts15:20) Surely then it possible that Jesus meant that the bread stood for his body and the wine stood for his blood. Jesus also said “This cup is the new covenant in my blood which will be poured out for you.” The cup was not literally the new covenant, it represented the new covenant.
So either the Bible has a gross contradiction or the church teaching possible has a flaw in it.

Let the reader disern :hmmm:

I was watching the "family guy" the other day ane peter took communion.

He drank the wine and looks up at priest and says "is that really the blood of christ?" The gives him a strange look and says, "yes."

"Holy crap, that guy must have been wasted 24/7."


heh

Two of your quotes are Old Testament and not applicable, unless you avoid shellfish for your immortal soul's sake.

I suppose the 10 Commandments would not applicable either. Would two "New" Testaments quotes make any difference?

Actually, you are right. Love one another as I have loved you supercedes the 10 commandments.

I guess you mean to quote in Mark 12:30: "you must love your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength. The second is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
You seem to have the correct understanding that Christians are no longer under the laws of Moses and the Bible appears very clear on the changes from those laws, including eating of certain foods or animals. But it never opened the door to drinking blood, rather it reinforced the stance against it. I'm also curious, doesnt the church still teach tithing and observation of the sabbath?

So do we all agree now that the bread and the wine SYMBOLIZE Jesus' flesh and blood and are not actually those things in reality?

Just like the 7 days symbolize the creation, the fact being it didn't actualy take God 7 days to create the universe?

I certainly agree the first part is supposed to be symbolic.

As for the second part - who knows? If God did indeed create the world, who's to say he didn't do it in seven days? Maybe he's just that good.

Carbon dating says otherwise.

BTW, I know you were kidding. That bit was for the ones who actually think that's what happened.

Actually, I'm not kidding. But you say carbon dating disproves the seven days thing? How is that?

Yeah I though carbon dating had a decent margin of error.

Not in the billions.

I'm not even trying to dispute it...I'm just ignorant of how the whole carbon dating thing works.

Google it.

Pretty much the same here. I roughly undertand the whole decay thing but im not really a sience type. From watching history channel type stuff it seems its somewhat accurate at least.

Without googling it...being a science teacher myself....I can tell you that Carbon Dating involves a process where a Carbon-14 isotope is compared to the decay rate of the item in question....or something like that..

I only teach six grade science and I barely touch on the subject of isotopes.

Just one article:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html

Look folks, I don't know any other way to say this other than plain English. The Church does not support child sex abuse. Period. The Boston Archdiosese is getting its ass kicked right now, and rightly so. Yes there were coverups, and I don't say that lightly. They are paying the price for it now. There have not been a deluge of new complaints or accusations, the ones you are hearing about that the law suits are about happened 20-30 years ago. Not to say that stuff doesn't still go on now, but the church is much more aware of it now and is reacting to it.

What bothers me is the notion that the Catholic church is the WORST offender. That has been said numerous times on this board, and it simply is not the case. That is why Catholics feel the need to point to examples of this type of thing in other denominations. Not to vindicate the Church (As Clint In Wichita seems to think I meant it, still don't know where he came up with that notion) but to alay the idea that the Catholic Church is the ONLY offender. This DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT, but it puts the problem in perspective. To put it another way, it seems that the Catholic haters of the world are using the scandal to further their agenda against the Church, rather than being concerned about the problem as a whole.

I think I could probably go on till I'm blue in the face and people will think what they want. All I'm saying is, the generalizations that people are making about the Catholic church are true of all human situations, including other denominations. Whatever makes you feel good about it, I guess...

It IS the body and blood of Christ. Christ is PRESENT in the Eucharist. There is substantial biblical teachings to back this up.

This all requires faith as well, so I guess it doesn't really matter what others may think of it. But a Catholic should believe this (Trans substatiation) or they need to re-examine their faith.

Post #268 has substantial biblical teachings that bring this into question.

Carbon dating acuracy is also is limited to a few thousand years.
As far as the 7 creation days.
While the fossil record proves creation, it disproves creation in the "literal" 6 creation days.

Wrong. Items dating back millions of years are routinely dated. There is a reasonable margin of error, of course, but it is clear that the Earth is several billion years old, at least.


The fossil record proves creation AND disproves creation in 6 days?

I don't even know where to begin.

Another mind deluded by religion.

Clint is such a nice guy... :rolleyes:

Then it must be true. :p

I never claimed to be nice.

Just correct.

The Travel Channel, or a 2,000 year old book written by men.

I don't see why one is clearly a more reliable source of information than the other.

Intersting that not until this century that certain names and places that were only noted in this old book and have been refuted as fiction, that thru recently found artifacts were actually found to be true.

The fact that the Bible names proper names of people and places means nothing.

Stephen King and Tom Clancy (for example) do the same thing.

No you didnt understand what I said. Certain names and places had only been historically recorded in the bible. For example, the name Pontius Pilate had only been found in the bible, there were no secular written historical documents or artifacts proving him existing as a political ruler or even a person......until recently.

-I was speaking of its acuracy.
-There is no doubt that the earth is millions of years old.
-I dont know, the layers of sediment show no signs of life then all of a sudden... wala there's whole life forms. I suppose the fossil record can be altered by athiests.

Honest questions:

Who do you believe wrote the Bible?

How old do you believe the Bible is?

1. Carbon dating isn't perfectly accurate with any items, but it is accurate enough when you're talking about millions of years.

2. Whole life forms? As opposed to what? Obviously we haven't found every type of fossil yet. Even if life did "suddenly" spring up, it's not evidence of creation by a supreme being...let alone the same being featured in the Bible.

I'll let the scientists decipher the fossil record & leave the twisted interpretations to the religious.

1. Politicians/Leaders of some sort, who sought power/control over the then ignorant masses.

2. It's been pieced together, added to, and abridged over many centuries, but I think the oldest parts probably have their roots in text originally written about 2,000 years ago.

thus making you as much a sheep as those you deride.

I'm not basing my life on what those scientists find.

Sheep follow, I do not.

Clint,
It sure is nice that your wife let you put down that vaccum cleaner long enough to make a couple of posts.

So which religion do you mostly follow?

I never pass on a chance to discuss the Pope.

He follows the Religion of Clint, jenson.

the Only Idols in that relgion are the Purse in which his genitals are kept and the collar on his neck.

None.

IMO, religion is a superstition that humans need to evolve beyond.

Being dependent on a superhero you've never seen is silly IMO, whether you're a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc.

You make it sound as if you have a clue.

I have an extra clue. I could sell you one if you save enough of your allowance.

So you don't believe in anything. This is because you're not a sheep - like the rest. You stand out, rise above the rest. What good is that going to do you when you're dead though? Don't you ever think (or at least hope) that there is something more than this? That there's a heaven or something more? I know you do, or have, despite what you may say...

You'd better save it for the collection plate at church. I'm sure they can make better use of it.

Everyone thinks about it, but I don't claim to have an answer.

I don know this: If Heaven if full of "Christians", it couldn't possibly be Heaven to me.

yeah.....those bastard Churchies and their Pope insist on giving huge amounts of that money to charities and illconcieved causes like buying people out of Slavery in Sudan, feeding and sheltering homeless, giving supplies and assistance to areas of Crisis with petty things like Civil war, earthquakes, famine, disease. Silly Christians, your money would be better spent buying Clint the Newest LeisureSuit Larry.

What makes you different? These religions claim to have answers. Are you smarter than Mother Teresa or...the Pope? What about Gandhi? A lot of brilliant people who changed the world had some religious belief. What's up with you?

He doesn't believe the same thing that you folks do...whats the big deal...

The way you are framing these questions to him is strange.

Jenson.....Only A Sheep would believe that the Time and Money spent by Mother Teresa and Gandhi would not have been better spent for society if they had eaten Cheetos and watched Spongebob Reruns while High with their friends.

I think Clint probably was boofooed by a priest when he was a kid, leading to his contempt for anyone's religious beliefs.

Dude, I'm not being harsh with him. I'm just trying to get a better understanding. You don't think I'm really interested? I am. I don't want to start some holy war. I'm honestly interested in his thoughts and ideas and his view. I struggle with this religion stuff...Am I on or am I off? Never easy to tell...

I personally feel like a less extreme version of him.

I have jumped between lutheran and methodist churches for a good deal of my life. I have no problem with the actual religions. I have a problem with the application of them and the way they are hijacked...I also have trouble with the tendencey for some parts of scripture to be glossed over and some parts used to tell others how they should live their lives.

The book is writting in Hebrew...that is translated into the Latin Vulgate. Alot of the English versions of the Bible through time have been tranlsated from the Latin Vulgate. I just have trouble not believing so much of it has been construed by the people holding the pens even if they had good intentions.

Have you ever written a poem translated from one language to another?

There are a lot of amazing people I have met through churches. Alot of people that do a lot of great things. Thats why I tend to not just slam churches as a whole but I wish would be view in a different manner. To me, a relationship with Christ (or a spiritual relationsip) is one of the most personal ones you can have. I wish church was seen more so as a tool in that journey and not the end all everything in place magic box of religion.

Some organizations just don't seem to do it right IMO. I wish I could find better words to describe it but I don't like it when a religious groups when they convey their message "like they want to win."

Anyway thats just a few of my thoughts...

Anyone who tells you they know what happens after death is a liar, including the Pope, Mother Teresa, and Ghandi. No matter how strongly they believe, or how much faith they have, they have no better idea about life after death than anyone else.

That's true. I don't disagree.