Mr. Milosevic...er....I mean Mr. Frazod,

We will take care of those ethnic Albanians....er...I mean ethnic Mexicans for you in no time.

Ethnic cleansing begins in t-minus 5 minutes....

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Sarcasm Flag

Interesting similarities between this discussion and the conflict that our country was involved in. Okay, so how many of you who support Fraz supported what we were doing in Yugoslavia?

Fraz's ideas may not be as militant, but it looks to me like many of you would not be opposed to more militant measures.

Just observations, so please avoid pressing me into your political paradigms.

Stick and move.....

Im having trouble seeing the similarities, Disco.

In Yugoslavia, one side was killing the other, but both sides were residents of the same country just different races. The U.S. policy was to not give guns to the bosnians to defend themselves so they were systematically destroyed by the serbs.

Fraz's comments were with regard to illegal aliens in the country illegally and wanting to protect the U.S. borders against illegal immigration.

Am I missing something?

Titus - Don't forget about the part where U.S. servicemen and women carried out bombings against the Serbs - this is the key issue. People were so intent on protecting the ethnic Albanians; however, they are not so content protecting the ethnic Mexicans in their own back yard.

So here's the real question....How do you differentiate between ethnic Mexicans, Mexican-Americans, and illegal Mexicans? I hope you know, because I sure as heck don't and I don't think that Fraz does either.

Sweeping nationalistic generalizations about ethnic ______ (fill in the blank) do not make the distinction either. And stop me if I'm wrong here, but I'm willing to bet that most of the people in Fraz's neighborhood (which he so eloquently complains about - good thing he finally learned that he has the right to move) are indistinguishable as legal/illegal. And I get the impression that Fraz could care less if they were legal or not as long as they weren't collecting federal subsidies. Like I said a long time ago, this country will be in the same predicament as the Serbs once the Texicans are a larger portion of the country. Many people have already begun to express this sentiment on this post.

And who complains about speaking Spanish when they live in a place named Los Angeles? Do you refer to your municipality as Angel City?....El Paso...San Diego....San Antonio...what do you expect?

LOL - look at the little monkey dance!

<img src="http://www.peanut-institute.org/images/dancing.gif">
Here you go TJ - a dancing peanut, for my sweet little dancing organ-grinder monkey!

Disco: I think you're attributing to me things I didnt say.

A legal resident should have the ability to prove he/she is a legal resident. Please, lets not go off the deep end here, but what I mean by that is a legal resident should be able to provide birth certificate or something when applying for identification such as DL or SSN.

Is protecting the borders of the U.S. from illegal immigration the same as a civil war in Yugoslavia? Im still having troubles distinguishing.

The U.S. policy, even when Bush Sr. was in office, was to withhold arms from the ethnic albanians to prevent the conflict from escalating, of course all this did was get a lot of them killed in a hurry.

Oh and uh FYI Titus -

No offense, but Bosnia & Herzegovina are not part of Yugoslavia (you can check the atlas at www.mapquest.com. The issue was between "Serbs" and "ethnic Albanians". The issue on this thread is between "Americans" and "ethnic Mexicans".

Here's another similarity. Yugoslavia shares its border to the south with Albania while the U.S. shares its border to the south with Mexico.

uh Disco, maybe you should re-read the earlier posts.

The issue that Fraz was talking about was 'illegal' immigration.

Disco,

I don't think that this thread is about people hating Mexicans. No one is saying to kill these people because they are Mexican. People who come here legally and want to blend into our societyand are productive are not the ones people have a problem with. It is the ones that are here using phoney papers, documents, and green cards and getting the free ride that are the problem. We are a nation of laws. When these people cross the border illegally, then they are a criminal. Should we not enforce the laws of the land?

Titus - The first paragraph of my reply regarding the bombings was directed at you. The rest was for anyone.

Regarding your request for "proof". Apparently (according to some on this board), illegals can already obtain DLs and even voter registration cards. How are you going to implement a more thorough check on ALL immigrants and how are you going to fund it? Also, how would you deal with citizens whos parents are illegals? If you get rid of the parents, the state has to raise the kids; if you let the parents stay, you will still have illegals coming here, having kids, and hanging around.

And I don't understand how you people propose to solve this problem. It seems to me that adding additional responsibilities to the INS will increase federal reach as well as you taxes.

Still nobody has answered Oleman's original inquiry with regard to diistinguishing between legal/illegal. Further, I don't think that anyone has even touched on a solution to Fraz's neighborhood problem which he publicized so well. What are you going to do if all those drug dealers and Mexican nationalists are actually U.S. citizens?

they are not so content protecting the ethnic Mexicans in their own back yard. - I found this in the first paragraph, apparently directed at me. Feel free to point me to my quote where I stated this.

First, we need to distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants. Legal immigrants will not have any problems obtaining a DL, Voter registration cards, etc.

Illegal immigrants should have a tougher time obtaining the identification that shows they are a legal resident unless they go through the proper channels. No amount of laws will solve this problem since an illegal is not going to comply with the law since he is breaking the law.

Please note that I said "people" not "you" or "Titus". Also I said "they are not" as opposed to "Titus is not" or "you are not".

I hope this helps you.

I was just making an observation. I'm not trying to argue with anyone, just making observations and trying to draw some constructive conclusions while looking at the issues in a little more depth than right vs. left, us vs. them, etc.. I would hope that you will agree with me that, at the time, the majority of Americans supported the U.S.'s actions in Yugoslavia and Macedonia.

Titus - The first paragraph of my reply regarding the bombings was directed at you.

Oh, well this comment threw me off...you see you used 'Titus' and 'directed at you' so I thought thats what you meant.

I guess Im beginning to understand....words dont mean things.

I would agree with you on that point. I, however, disagree with your observation.

Fraz was speaking to illegal immigration. He wasnt talking about rounding up all the mexicans and exterminating them although that's what oleman and TJ portrayed his comments as.

This probably could have been an interesting discussion until TJ jumped on the racist bandwagon and it was downhill from there.

I have no problems with immigration. This entire nation is founded on immigration - many scientists believe even the first native Americans immigrated to this continent across the Bering Strait land bridge.

As long as people are productive and can assimilate, let 'em in! I do NOT support welfare for immigrants, however. No matter where they come from (especially those damned Canadians - may their evil hearts burn in hell...)

Come to this country, speak the language, get a job, do your best to achieve the 'American Dream'. That's what most immigrants do anyway. Typically, they just want a better life for their families. If they're willing to work for it, then our country is the best place in the world. If they don't want to do these things, then I hope they have a nice vacation here - then get the %*&$ out and take their kids with them.

This is unfortunate Titus. You and I both know that I never said that words don't mean anything. We both should also know that referring to people, they, their, is not a form of direct address. I also never said that I was quoting you. Unfortunately, it looks like you are trying to pick sides (if there even are any) and discredit me instead of coming to a reasonable conclusion.

I tried to be polite in correcting your mistake regarding Bosnia - I could have really unloaded on that one, but I didn't. I thought we were having a discussion.

Let's try this again. So would you agree with me that the majority of U.S. citizens, at the time, supported the U.S. bombings of Yugoslavia?

Would you agree with me that the majority of the sentiment on this thread supports taking some form of action against ethnic Mexicans? It's okay with me if you say no here. Please just try to support your claim with reason instead of insults.

I never said you said that...that was not aimed at you as I did not use your name...sound familiar.

Now, I have addressed your points in my earlier post. Im not taking sides nor am I trying to make an argument.

What you have observed is not true and I asked you to re-read the earlier posts. Now, I could repost the exact text, but since you misread them the first time, what good would it be to re-post the same text only to be misread by you.

As far as 'unloading' on my bosnia mistake--fire away. It really doesnt make one hill of beans difference because IT DOESNT MATTER.

The issue was regarding ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION not Civil war.

Fair enough. I just think that his (frazod's) sweeping generalizations regarding the people who live on his street was a bad example for this discussion. Try to follow me on this one - and you don't have to answer. Do you think that Fraz has done thorough background checks on all the people in his neighborhood and determined that an overly proportionate amount of them were illegal? And how would Fraz. know for sure? How would tighter enforcement of immigration laws keep legal Mexican immigrants from celebrating May 5th and speaking Spanish in their own neighborhoods?

And civil war is where we will be if this issue is left to fester. I am not asking you to agree or disagree with any particular sentiment regarding the treatment of Mexicans legal or illegal.

I am asking you to try to see my perspective. That the sentiments expressed on this thread resemble seeds that could grow to promote a civil war in this country. Many people expressed frustration. This frustration could very well lead to action. No?

This thread is nothing but racial profiling. The question is, is racial profiling racist? Many posters agree that if you see a Mexican he is automatically an illegal.

And that is very unfortunate Oleman. Still nobody has answered your question regarding how to tell the difference. I already admitted that I can't.

And I don't care who's GOP or DNC. I can see how some people would call Frazod racist, but I can also see how some people would call him nationalist (because illegals are not a race; they are made up of many different races, but as fas as I know, they aren't their own race yet).

I do think it is interesting that he used sweeping generalizations about the people in his neighborhood. Further, I will say that legal Mexican immigrants have every right to speak Spanish in their neighborhoods - free speech is a protected right for all. Does that mean that every citizen has to learn Spanish in order to accommodate them? No.

Many posters do not agree, that's a false statement--and it's designed merely to put one on the defensive. Same as calling all posters who think illegal immigration is wrong 'racist'.

Frustration can lead to action, yes. Hopefully action that is a little more constructive than taking the law into ones own hands.

There has been no one advocating vigilantism or a call to it.

As far as olemans question, it's a diversion. No one was speaking to that and I have answered the question several times.

Disco: I think just as bad as Frazod's sweeping generalizations is olemans continued pounding of the racist drum. for an example, see the 'conservatives' topic.

Pathetic.

Disco,

Here in the People's Republic of Kalifornia there is a battle going on between the city of Anaheim and a civil rights group who do not like the fact that the INS has an officer at the Anaheim city jail. When these people are caught commiting crimes they get deported. The civil rights group says the Mexicans are being singled out but that is not the case. They are criminals for being here illegally and it is just not Mexicans that are being deported.

If they want to speak spanish in their homes and neighborhoods that is one thing. But when I go to a place of business why should I be expected to speak their language. I had one ask me one day if I spoke Spanish, when I told him no, he ask me why not. I don't think it is my responsibility to speak their language in my country.

Illegal immagration is a major problem that needs to be addressed. We need to tighten our borders and if we need to use the military so be it. They have built walls along the border by San Diego that have forced the illegals further out into the desert. Every year some of these people die from heat and dehydration and the Mexican government tries to blame us for it. When these people die in the desert no one should be blamed but themselves. When these people go to apply for any type of assistence they should be denied. When they try to enroll their children in our schools they should be denied. Here in The People's Republic of Kalifornia when the voters overwhelming voted to cut off all aid to illegals a liberial judge said that was unconstitional. Show me where in the Constitution of the United States where it says we need to support the world.

Titus - Good point. I think that the racism remarks arise from misunderstanding the nationalistic intent laced with generalizations. I think the point was made earlier in the thread that generalizations applied to a race is racism. I don't think it is clear to everyone (myself included) when some statements are intended only for illegals - if they are made as statements about "Mexicans", "Chinese", whatever.

Rick - First paragraph sounds like one of the best solutions I have heard yet. Not only are you getting rid of illegals, you're most likely getting rid of illegals who have commited other crimes. And somebody stop me here if I'm wrong, but don't legal citizens even give up their rights once they are merely accused of a crime.

Second para touches on a very blurry subject. All I can say is that the Canadians have been battling this problem for a lot longer than we have (with regard to French instead of Spanish) and it has almost split the country.

Third para is good as well. Walls sound like one of the most economically feasible solutions. I think that more should be done to address the problems of Mexico as well. However, I get the impression that there are some very wealthy and powerful people who see it in their best interest to keep Mexico subordinate - cheap labor now that NAFTA is in effect would be just one reason.

And I couldn't agree more. Good points on your post, Titus. I see where you are coming from on the BB agreement. I don't think a definitive concensus was reached on that issue. I just think it is unfortunate when people can't distinguish between the legals and illegals.

Someone please explain to me why we need to shut down immigration. Seriously - what is the problem? Most studies show immigrants, on average, draw welfare and unemployment benifits less than 'nationals'.

These people want to come here to better themselves and to povide better lives for their families. They want to work hard, get a decent education, and escape persecution. As long as they speak English(it IS the mother-tongue of the US), work, and abide by our laws, I have absolutely no problem with them.

All of our ancestors immigrated here. All of them faced obsticles - all of them faced prejudices - and all of them assimilated and became part of this nation's cultural heritage. It's been going on for the past 200+ years - it would be a bad thing, IMO, to try and stop it. Read the inscription on the plaque at Ellis Island some time... it says it all.

Oh great, I see I've been compared to yet another dictator by yet another pinhead liberal. Who will I be tomorrow? Mussolini? The Shah of Iran? The Emperor from Star Wars, perhaps? I'm getting really sick of being singled out as the devil by you people. GET OVER IT.

And where did I ever say that every Mexican in my neighborhood was an illegal alien? How the hell could I know that? Pardon me, but I don't go door-to-door asking for friggin green cards. What I do know is that the vast majority of the people in this neighborhood are hispanic - I assume the are mostly Mexicans because I see Mexican flags everywhere I look. I know some of you are a bit logic challenged, but this conclusion isn't really much of a stretch. I also know from my day-to-day dealings with these people that many of them don't speak English, either because they can't or won't. I also know there is a lot of crime in my neighborhood, gang graffiti and the like, and while it may be perpetrated by some offshoot of the remnants of Bugs Moran's Irish northside gang, somehow I doubt it.

I want the borders of this country guarded against the endless tide of illegal immigration. I want illegals that are here sent back where they belong. I NEVER SAID I WANTED THEM ALL ROUNDED UP AND SHOT. This all stems from something I said when I came home half-plastered on Saturday night, to the effect of "put a couple of army divisions on the border and shoot anything that tries to cross it." This would follow the assumption that anyone illegally crossing the border would know what they were asking for, and would be warned to turn back. Only then would they be fired on, and they'd damn well have no one to blame for it but themselves. They don't belong here, and should be kept out, preferably peacefully, but by force if necessary. Of course, Taco took this to mean I wanted all Mexicans shot, and ever since I've been the univeral stomping boy for every do-gooder with a computer and internet access.

And no, Disco, I do NOT support our country's actions in Serbia, Albania, or anywhere else where our servicemen (and I was once one of them) who are supposed to be defending OUR country get killed for bunch of foreigners who've been slaughtering each other for generations. I don't care if they whack each other. It's not my business, and in my view there isn't one of them alive worth a drop of American blood. All these idiots over here who protest about foreign injustices should, IMO, shut the fuck up, get on a plane, pick up a rifle and fight their own damn battles.

How you made the jump from a foreign civil war to illegal immigration is as baffling to me as how you can liken me to Milosovec. The last time I checked, the only creatures on Earth I have dictatorial power over are MY fuckING CATS, and they don't pay attention to me half the time, anyway.

So stop putting words in my mouth. No one but you is buying it.

fraz - the Shah was on our side...

H C Chief,

If you read this thread all the way through you will find no one say's to cut off immigration. This is about illegal immigration. There are ways for people to come to our country legally and there are some who come illegally. Are we not a nation of laws? Why should people wait for their paper work and applications to be processed and come here legally, when others sneak across the border. Do we not have immigration laws? If people who come here illegally don't have to obey the laws of our land, then why should anyone obey them?

Who's forcing you to do business with anyone? You have ultimate control over who you do business with. It's an illagitamate argument.

If I don't like a business, I don't patronize it. Simple as that.

First of all, from your response, it is obvious that you aren't paying attention to what is going on here. You just *think* that you have.

I did not quickly jump to racial ephhets. It wasn't until Frazod started talking about shooting Mexicans as a solution that I jumped in that direction. For the life of me, I can't figure out why it is such a huge stretch to call someone who advocates shooting Mexicans to solve problems a racist. Especially when you consider that his problem seems to be with mexican immigrants... Not a word of illegal immigrants from Canada, though they exist (yes, it's a problem). It is evident that there is a racial bias here, especially when you hear the complaints about language differences.

As for opportunity being part of the problem... I've gone over this in great detail, but as you insist that I go over it again, I'll ask that you pay attention this time.

First of all, lets establish that wages in Mexico are terrible. Part of the problem is because of American infulence in Mexican politics. American companies enjoy cheap labor... Especially from Mexico, because freight costs become cheaper than shipping over seas. American influence has contributed to corrupting the Mexican government, making Minimum wage more of a ceiling than a floor for wages.

However, there is a great opportunity across the border. Farmers everywhere will pay good money by Mexico standards to illegal immigrants for working on the farms. This is opportunity. In order to iliminate a large part of the flow of illegal immigrants, you must address opportunity. CONSIDER THIS A SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM. You cannot stop the flow without addressing this opportunity. Period. No two ways around it.

Consider, however, what happens if you do stop this flow. Farmers will have to pay more money to American workers. Know anyone American who is willing to hoe beets at 75 cents a row? I don't. So already poor farmers get poorer, and pass the costs along to the consumer.

Again, no one here has even so much as attempted to give me an answer to this problem, despite all of the back slapping going on here. This opportunity is the number one source of Illegal immigrantion in the US (from Mexico).

The second opportunity is more organized, and more dangerous to society. America has a huge appetite for drugs. Because the United States refuses to control the drug problem, a huge opportunity is created on the black market for them. It used to be, mexican drug lords were forced to run cocaine from South America, across Mexico, and into the US. For all their work, they only received a small percentage of the profits... And they had to rely on someone else for those profits. Until someone came along and invented Crystal Meth. Crystal Meth, created largely in thanks to the U.S. War on Drugs, liberated Mexican drug lords from Columbian drugs. Now they've got a product that packs a much longer high, they can create it in their own labs in the US. The only thing you need to smuggle into the country is the materials to make it, including the cooks. The amount of people from Mexico that you need to smuggle in is much, much, much less than come in due to farming, but it doesn't make it any less of a problem...

So, if your solution to this problem is stopping the people, you aren't really solving the problem. The opportunity will still exist to sell drugs to a society who will dole out billions of dollars each and every year for them. The solution is to CONTROL the drug problem by controlling the drugs. If the US Controls the sale of Drugs, they control the opportunity, virtually eliminating it, and turning off the spigot of Illegal immigrants.

So if you really want to discuss how to solve illegal immigration, YOU CAN"T GET AWAY FROM THESE TWO MAJOR POINTS. It's impossible... Unless you just want to ignore the real problem, and attack the people instead. When you attack the people, instead of the problem, it is not a huge stretch to racism.

But go on, and keep patting yourselves on the backs. It's much easier than facing the truth.

Lap Dog-

I should have been more clear, I loved your review. I noticed TJ didn't. :)

Joe-

It should work, try the same *****@hotsheet.com.

Yet another back slap... This place is too much.

Taco when I walk into a place of business in my country I expect for the employee's of that business to be able to understand the language of my country which is English.

Uhm???
 

I don't remember calling them illegal, wait let me run back and look ............. Nope I didn't. Why are you putting words in my mouth? (as if I didn't know)


D@mn Tim,
now you are being compared to Slobo!? What the he!! is the matter with you people out there?

Sounds like a personal problem to me...

I don't know if you are familiar with the first amendment, or not. Freedom of speech? Sound familir?

Freedom? Bah! Screw freedom! People shouldn't have the freedom to speak whatever language they want. They should be forced to conform!

It's this attitude that makes me wonder why it would be such a stretch to draw parralells to fascism...

Oh good, the ringleader of the idiots is back, spouting his usual "its all your fault" bullshit. Nice to know I'm still a brutal killer.

So tell me, Taco, if America is the root of all of Mexico's problems, why doesn't the Mexican government shut down all our factories there and guard the borders themselves to keep us evil Americans out? Apparently we're all that's wrong with Mexico - not overpopulation, internal corruption or gross bureaucratic mismanagement. I guess, then, that if the borders are fortified, from both or either side, and all horrible American influences are removed, Mexico will instantly transform in a paradise. Then you'll have to stop us poor Americans from illegally entering Mexico. Or would that be wrong?

And let me ask you this - if someone broke into your house (illegally), started eating your food and taking your stuff, would you defend yourself? Or would you say, "Gee, take what you want, I've got plenty. The Cheetos are in cabinet over the sink - help yourself." Well, you might, but I wouldn't. I'd give them one chance to get out, then put them down. But then again, I believe in defending what's mine from people who aren't entitled to it.

OH MY GOD A GROUP OF ILLEGAL CANADIAN IMMIGRANTS JUST BLEW UP SEARS TOWER! They were all drinking Moosehead and calling bystanders hosers. Sounds like a serious problem. There ought to be a law....

Who said it was the root of all of Mexico's problems? I said that America contributes to them. Of course, I didn't expect you would pick up on that.

Probably for the same reasons we don't close our borders from the Chinese and German companies buying up American institutions. It's the economy, stupid. Of course, I didn't expect that you would pick up on that.


Again, America only contributes to Mexico's problems... I also noticed that up to this point, you've basically not even begun to address the unescapable problems of opportunity that I detailed in the last post. Why is that?

No one said that in the least. Mexico wasn't blessed with the natural resources that America was blessed with. I don't know if you have caught onto this or not, but Mexico is a desert. Their number one resource is tourism... Their number two? Labor.

And again, I noticed that instead of attacking the valid points I made in the last post, you've chosen to ignore them, and rather jumped to rhetoric. I had high hopes too. Don't worry though... Somebody will come along to slap you on the back for it, and call me a name or something, while also choosing to ignore my very valid points...

Oh neat. More rhetoric. I suppose that would depend on a few things. For instance, if the perpetrator was the person that I was paying to get my groceries for me, because I didn't want to do it myself, I might consider the circumstances. I wouldn't be happy about it... I'd probably fire the person (deportation). But I still don't want to have to buy my own groceries, so I'd end up looking for someone else to fill the role (and damned if I'm going to pay them what the job is worth either). See, rhetoric is fun, and easy. I still noticed that you have ignored my entire post. Get your back ready for those back slaps... They are surely coming...

So then it appears on difference between you and me is that I won't kill anyone for cheetos. It's stupid, and senseless. Yes, I just called you stupid. And senseless. Now if that person had me up at gunpoint, that's a different story. You'll never see me advocating the execution of unarmed people. Something like that might make people draw comparisons to Hitler, or Milosovec. I don't care to be seen in that light, nor do any of my ideas reflect anything that would mistake me for either... Still noticing you have ignored the major points of my last post... Go figure...

Don't worry though... After the "sound beating" that you just gave me, someone is sure to come and slap you on the back. Good work man!

Taco you are really ignorant. The language of the United States of America is English. It is taught in our schools and it is the language of our nation. This is not the United States of Mexico. No one is saying you can not speak you language here but if you are going to work in a business in our country then you should be able to speak and understand the language. You must not have gone to school in this country. Because if you had you would find that the language taught is English not Spanish. I would like for you to show me one school system in this country which teaches anything but English as the primary language.

[QUOTE]I also noticed that up to this point, you've basically not even begun to address the problem of opportunity.[/QUOTE}


I saw this in an earlier post and forgot to repond to it last night.


Donko John,
What are you saying? That America needs to stop being the land of opportunity? I don't know what you are smoking, but it can't be good for you. Put the controlled substance down, and slowly back away. That opportunity is for anyone, not just immagrants. You take that opportunity away, you are taking it away from Americans, not just those that are looking to flee some he!! hole of a country. You take that opportunity away, you are hurting your own countrymen, and Americans.

No more controlled substances, they are hurting you
 

Donko,
making brash uneducated statements like that can really hurt your credebility (as if you have any left). Mexico has a lot of natural resources. And it isn't a great big desert. Did you know (obviously not) that a good portion of Mexico is jungle? That is not only a far cry from desert, it is the exact opposite.

hang in there Tj, they will only nit pick not address your real points.

Oleman
 

What real points? And while your here, why don't you address my post to you (it should still be on this page).

Tim,
here is a big cyber slap on the back for ya!


I didn't want to disapoint ya Donko.

That's absolutely NOT what I'm saying. I'm merely pointing out the problem of opportunity that exists. You can't solve the problem of illegal immigration without attacking the problem of opportunity that exists. You can attack the symptoms all day long, but if you don't take away the opportunity, you don't solve the problem.


Isn't that what I've been saying all along? Hmmm... let me think... YES! Except for the fact that hoeing beets for 75 cents per row isn't much of an opportunity for most Americans... So really, you've said nothing... But if you take the mexicans out of the meth trade, you only transfer that opportunity to anyone who is willing to pick it up... Which is what I've been saying all along... So far, you've insulted me, and then backed up my argument... Are you confused?


see my last point. You won't find many Americans too thrilled about the idea of hoeing beets for 75 cents per row. But if they are interested, I gurantee that they will be able to find work.

Thanks for solidifying my post. Someone will be along to slap you on the back for "destroying" me real soon. Stay tuned.

Titus
Surely not trying to dodge someone as august as yourself, what post and what question did I not answer? I not do respond to your name calling but only a valid question.

Donko John,
You see you and I have a major difference of opinion on this, I DON"T THINK OPPORTUNITY IS A PROBLEM! You on the other hand do. Tell me, how do you address a "problem" like opportunity with out doing away with it? This baffles me quiet a bit. :confused:

STitus
Your opinion that opportunity is not a problem for minorities is bunk, and you know it. To slam someone to express this opinion which we all know to be true is slime.

I don't think opportunity, per se, is the problem. Opportunity in general is a great thing. But I'm not talking about opporunity in general. I'm talking about SPECIFIC opportunities. You haven't picked up on this.

I have an opportunity to sell drugs to children at school (rhetorically speaking, of course). I'm not going to take that opportunity, because I'm not desperate enough to do that. The opportunity still exists. Some would argue that something should be done to eliminate this opportunity, so that our kids don't get sold drugs. Are you telling me that this opportunity is a good opportunity?

Again, I ask... Are you confused?

Good job man... You showed me.

Donko John,
when you make such a blanket statement as "the problem is opportunity" and not be specific, how the he!! am I suposed to know what you are talking about?


I am starting to think Donko John is really a woman, she just expects you to know what is on her mind.



Oleman,
are you talking to me? Cause I don't see Titus posting here right now.

Well, you could start by actually taking the time to read. I just got done with a fabulous dissertation on this, and I specifically asked people, much like you, to pay attention. So please, before you just jump in, do some due diligence as to what is going on.


Even though I just nailed you to the wall, I'm sure someone will be by to pat you on the back for taking care of me with such eloquence... Now go back and read...

For your benefit, I will repost... Please keep up with the discussion next time, especially if you are going to be name calling the whole time...



First of all, from your response, it is obvious that you aren't paying attention to what is going on here. You just *think* that you have.

I did not quickly jump to racial ephhets. It wasn't until Frazod started talking about shooting Mexicans as a solution that I jumped in that direction. For the life of me, I can't figure out why it is such a huge stretch to call someone who advocates shooting Mexicans to solve problems a racist. Especially when you consider that his problem seems to be with mexican immigrants... Not a word of illegal immigrants from Canada, though they exist (yes, it's a problem). It is evident that there is a racial bias here, especially when you hear the complaints about language differences.

As for opportunity being part of the problem... I've gone over this in great detail, but as you insist that I go over it again, I'll ask that you pay attention this time.

First of all, lets establish that wages in Mexico are terrible. Part of the problem is because of American infulence in Mexican politics. American companies enjoy cheap labor... Especially from Mexico, because freight costs become cheaper than shipping over seas. American influence has contributed to corrupting the Mexican government, making Minimum wage more of a ceiling than a floor for wages.

However, there is a great opportunity across the border. Farmers everywhere will pay good money by Mexico standards to illegal immigrants for working on the farms. This is opportunity. In order to iliminate a large part of the flow of illegal immigrants, you must address opportunity. CONSIDER THIS A SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM. You cannot stop the flow without addressing this opportunity. Period. No two ways around it.

Consider, however, what happens if you do stop this flow. Farmers will have to pay more money to American workers. Know anyone American who is willing to hoe beets at 75 cents a row? I don't. So already poor farmers get poorer, and pass the costs along to the consumer.

Again, no one here has even so much as attempted to give me an answer to this problem, despite all of the back slapping going on here. This opportunity is the number one source of Illegal immigrantion in the US (from Mexico).

The second opportunity is more organized, and more dangerous to society. America has a huge appetite for drugs. Because the United States refuses to control the drug problem, a huge opportunity is created on the black market for them. It used to be, mexican drug lords were forced to run cocaine from South America, across Mexico, and into the US. For all their work, they only received a small percentage of the profits... And they had to rely on someone else for those profits. Until someone came along and invented Crystal Meth. Crystal Meth, created largely in thanks to the U.S. War on Drugs, liberated Mexican drug lords from Columbian drugs. Now they've got a product that packs a much longer high, they can create it in their own labs in the US. The only thing you need to smuggle into the country is the materials to make it, including the cooks. The amount of people from Mexico that you need to smuggle in is much, much, much less than come in due to farming, but it doesn't make it any less of a problem...

So, if your solution to this problem is stopping the people, you aren't really solving the problem. The opportunity will still exist to sell drugs to a society who will dole out billions of dollars each and every year for them. The solution is to CONTROL the drug problem by controlling the drugs. If the US Controls the sale of Drugs, they control the opportunity, virtually eliminating it, and turning off the spigot of Illegal immigrants.

So if you really want to discuss how to solve illegal immigration, YOU CAN"T GET AWAY FROM THESE TWO MAJOR POINTS. It's impossible... Unless you just want to ignore the real problem, and attack the people instead. When you attack the people, instead of the problem, it is not a huge stretch to racism.

But go on, and keep patting yourselves on the backs. It's much easier than facing the truth.

Taco...the influx of Canadians into the U.S. is totally due to your agressive recruitment of our professionals. We currently have a so-called "brain-drain" of epidemic proportions, and our health care system in particular is really paying the price. As well, our education system up here is on par or better than yours, and we can't pay our graduates what the Americans are offering.

OK, I'm back. I'm having trouble staying on the Planet tonight.


Donko John,
I'll admit that I wasn't paying as close attention to your physco-babble tonight as I was last night. All those accusations of being racists gets a little old and annoying after a while.

Since you seem to have figured out the main problem, why don't YOU offer a solution. You keep telling us to come up with one, but I don't see you offering one. Since you seem to have the problem cornered on this, you should take the lead in coming up with a solution.


Oh, and one other thing -



It has already been established in this thread that Frazod's problems are not with Mexicans as such, he would have the same problem with any other ethnicity causing the same problems that the Mexicans currently are.

Please keep up with the discussion next time....

FINALLY ABLE TO GET BACK ON THE BOARD. Is it just me, or is the Planet in low orbit this evening?

Boy, Taco really seems to live for dissecting my posts. I'm glad I can bring so much joy to his life.

I didn't offer a serious response to your crap because you don't rate a serious response. Everything you said earlier talked about how America fucks up Mexico, like they have no responsibility in fucking it up themselves. Of course, we all know that liberals never take responsibility for anything, least of all their own problems.

So again, your answer is "we've got nothing, so we'll take what you have." The problem is, you're not entitled to take what we have. This "opportunity" stuff is a bunch of crap. What gives these foreigners the right to take things that don't belong to them? Are you a professional thief? Is that why you have no problem with this concept?

I also like the "killing for Cheetos" twist you put on my quote. So now I'm apparently an evil dictator who kills people for junk food. And to think my guidance counselor said I'd never amount to anything.

Jamie, nice one (or as Taco would say, here's pat on the back) about the jungle thing, but please don't confuse Taco with facts - they are as foreign to him as, say, illegal immigrants are to us.

I am having trouble on the Planet as well
 

Tim,
thanks, and no kiddin'!

I think everyone here can see that the reason you didn't offer a serious response is because you are nailed to the wall, and can't really come up with anything worthwile to attack my very valid points...

No worries. I didn't expect it from you. I've come to the conclusion that you have nothing to offer this argument but hate...

I'll wait for Lapdog to come and bail you out...

You out there Lassie? Timmy just fell in a well.

The reason I haven't posed a solution is because I'm not going to pretend that there is an easy answer. It's not as easy as putting up a border guard... And every solution costs more money... The question then becomes, is the money we are spending to combat this problem going to be more or less than we are paying with the status quo. The answer is most likely "no."

I don't have all the facts and figures. Neither do you.

Taco, I see you that you ignore my question on the language of this country. Show me a school system in the United States which teaches anything other than English as the primary language.

Here is another reason we need to curb illegal immigration.

California authorities requested compensation from the federal government in FY99 for the incarceration expenses for 11,236,513 days of detention for illegal alliens in state and local jails and prisons. The cost of detention amounted to $615,860143. Under the Federal State Criminal Alien Assistance Program, California received $237,981,284 in compansation, leaving $378,494,042 in uncompensated costs to be borne by California taxpayers. The SCAAP program began in 1994 and compensates the state and local jurisdictions only for incarceration of undocumented,..i.e illegal aliens who are serving time for a felony or at least two misdemeanors.
In FY'00 California received $240,784,042 from SCAAP. Even though the federal assistance was higher, less money was available overall, so taxpayers were forced to absorb a larger share of the cost of criminal incarceration.

24% of CA is white males and the rest are minorities?

That must be because you didn't bother to look. I directly answered your question... But since I re-posted for Raiderhater, I might as weel do the same courtesy for you:




Sounds like a personal problem to me...

I don't know if you are familiar with the first amendment, or not. Freedom of speech? Sound familir?

Freedom? Bah! Screw freedom! People shouldn't have the freedom to speak whatever language they want. They should be forced to conform!

It's this attitude that makes me wonder why it would be such a stretch to draw parralells to fascism...

________________________________________

I'll ask you to please keep up with the conversation as well. I gave a direct response to your question. It was you who ignored it.

Taco, there's been lot's of nailing going on here, but none of it to me. I've responded to point after point after point, and when you get confused, which is often, you run crying back to the old hate and racist thing. That's some security blanket you've got there.

I noticed you didn't respond to my question regarding your ammoral attitude towards the theft of the possessions of others. I guess it's pretty clear where you stand on that issue. I'm starting to wonder where those big fat checks of yours roll in from.

How much does a hot car stereo bring in Denver these days, anyway?

Taco John-

Yeah I'm here tonight, but I won't be doing any rescuing. I've got a dilemma now. I agree with much of what you've said in the last few posts. Not completely, but mostly. (Doesn't life just suck!) I have a couple of things though.

On the Candian issue, I didn't even realize we have a Canadian immigrant problem. It's simply not very visible to your average American, if it's there at all. I don't go to the local McDonald's and hear "that'll be abote $4.75". Also, even if it were a visible problem, it's not nearly on the same scale. I'm sure we're all aware of the projections that indicate Hispanics will be more populous than whites in our country by 2030 (or 2050, or something like that.) To claim racism because we're giving the Candians a bye just isn't legitimate.

Regarding the opportunity stuff, this is where I'm really seeing your point. My question is, what about the Spanish speaking people at my nearby restaurants? Are they farmers, too? Drug lords, too? They don't speak English. Does anybody know if legal immigrants are required to know English? If so, these guys must be illegal. Maybe they are the smarter ones. Why hoe beets for $.75 when you can do fast-food for $8.00?

This brings me to my next point. If these guys are legal, why don't they speak English? Do they know it but refuse to speak it? If so, that is complete disrespect for their new country who is giving them this golden opportunity. I would think they would be more grateful than that. Maybe they have green cards and are still learning. Maybe we should require knowledge of English to get a green card. We could then recognize the illegals since they wouldn't be able to speak English. The illegals who could speak English could bypass the system, but then who cares? At least they'll be conforming to our society as any new citizen should be, even though they are still illegally here.

Finally, your comment about free speech is a good one. I don't know if there's a good response to it. I just don't want to see the U.S. turn into another Mexico, and that's where I see it heading.

LapDog
(BTW, calling me Lassie was a low blow. We all know I'm a male dog, don't we.)

Again... I've gone a whole evening... And not one of you... Not even ONE of you have been able to address the points that I brought up... What I have gotten is a lot of name calling.

But give yourselves a good pat on the back... You are "working me over." Right?

Further Taco here is some more information for you.

It is estimated there are more than 2,000,000 illegal aliens in California and more than 400,00 illegal alliens in our schools. The cost to California taxpayers exceeds $4 billion annually, or about $2,000 per illegal alien. Thats not suprising considering the fact that it costs about $7,000 for each non-English speaking student.
In 1994, after one of the most debated issues in our history, the people of California approved Propostion 187. They did so by an overwhelming 6 to 4 margin.
Propostion 187 barred illegal aliens from receiving any taxpayer paid benefits and services, including schools and colleges, and it directed state agencies to cooperate with federal law enforcement in enforcing immigration laws.
Prop 187 was immediately challenged by advocacy groups such as The Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund, The League of Latin American Citizens and the ACLU.

Now these people are not citizens of this country. Why do we owe them an education and services? We have immigration laws. When they cross the border illegally they are a criminal. We owe them nothing. If you believe that they are entitled to come here and take what does not belong to them, maybe we should send troops to Mexico and take what we want.

Taco you are trully ignorant. I told you no one is against them speaking Spanish in their homes. As I stated before, when I go into a business in the United States of America I expect them to be able to speak and understand the English language. English is the language of the United States. I ask you to name one school system in the United States that does not teach English as the primary language.

I ask you as well to keep up with the conversation.I ask you to name one school system in the United States which does not teach English as the primary language. The reason our schools teach English is because this is the language of our country.

That's because you are very intelligent, Dog. The points I brought up are very valid points. You recognize that to solve a sickness you have to attack it at its source, not it's symptoms. I totally expected that a reasoned, well thought argument would at least make you think.


Oh? So let me get this straight... It's ok for Canadians to come in and steal American jobs, so long as they speak the language. But it's not ok for Mexicans to come into the country and take the menial jobs that Americans don't want... The difference being, the Mexicans are bringing their culture along with them... How is this not racist? I'm not calling you a racist. I'm merely pointing out the double standard.

Believe it or not, Illegal Canadian Immigration is a problem in America, and they are taking American jobs. But we seem to be more tolerant of it. Why do you suppose that is? If you need proof that we systematically discriminate between illegal mexican, and illegal Canadian Immigrants, I implore you to read about it: http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/law/lws...1_4/01_TXT.htm


Again, there is no law in America forcing you to speak English. I've had the constitution thrown in my face multiple times in this thread; people asking me to show me where in the constitution it says that we should do this, or that, or the other (I think you see where I'm going with this). I ask you, where in the constitution does it say that Americans should all be forced to speak one language? It doesn't. In fact, the constitution gurantees you exactly the opposite... It gurantees you freedom to speak the way you want to speak; to express yourself the way you want to express yourself. You or I might not like it... But I'll defend to the death the freedom of speech. And you should too.

I know it's a good one. And, no, America won't turn into another Mexico. America is on a course of its own. And the country will be better off, whatever happens. My kids will be raised to know both English and Spanish. Not so much because my heritage lies in both... But because I'm not afraid of educating my children with the doctrine of tolerance.

As the phrase goes "All Men are Created Equal." It isn't "All Americans are created equal."


Yeah... Well, sorry about that. Just about everybody else here is waiting for you to bail them out of this argument so that they could pat themselves on the back for defeating the pinko commie liberal... The joke rings so true, that it was too hard to pass up.

Okay, just to make you happy. The two main reasons you give for Mexico's horrible conditions are: 1. US Companies taking advantage of Mexican workers, and 2. Drugs in America.

In case you haven't noticed, big companies take advantage of EVERYONE. They just do it on a far grander scale in Mexico. And I guess there's not a lot you can do about it, because if you demand higher wages, they'll just move their operations elsewhere. Of course, where would the Mexican people be if these companies weren't offering them jobs. They may not pay much, but its certainly better than nothing. Since I don't sit on Nike's board of directors, I guess whining to me about this one is a moot point.

As for the drugs, you simply say the US should "control its drug problem." Duh. And how do you propose to do this? My answer, if you recall, is the legalization of all drugs, bringing them under legal control. I've mentioned that a couple of times - you must have been too busy talking about hate and racism to notice it.

Of course, these issues are just red herrings. You blame us, and a lack of resources, for everything. The poor Mexicans are just victims, of the Unitd States, and have no responsibility at all for the mess their country has become. That's ridiculous.

To me it seems that overpopulation is Mexico's biggest problem, and the blatantly simple solution is the implemention of population control. How about a little birth control? I have a certain degree of sympathy for poor people, but people who can't even support themselves and then produce child after child after child and then whine that they need help feeding them strike me as hideously irresponsible and stupid.

Population control in Mexico would reduce the number of people living in poverty, improve the ratio of resources to people, and eleviate the need for them to come here illegally and be a burden to us.

And speaking of taking responsibility, again it should be the responsibility of MEXICAN CITIZENS to fix their corrupt and disfunctional government. Even someone as bent as you can't really believe that every single problem in the Mexican government is the result of American bribes.

You crack me up, Taco. Lap Dog is a racist moron until he agrees with something you said, then he's a visionary genius.

Do you actually read the things you write?

Rick, you call me ignorant, and then post a bunch of stuff that fits nowhere in any of the points that I am arguing.

Show me one post... Just one post where I said that we should be giving free educations to non American citizens... Show me one post where I made the comment that illegal immigration isn't a problem. You'll be hard pressed, because there isn't one...

I've acknowledged the problem, and even boiled the major problems down to their sources. Now I ask you to attack the problem at it's sources, rather than attacking the symptoms.

Please. I implore you to go back and show me where I even so much as implied that Lap Dog is a racist. I don't remember doing it. I suspect you are putting words in my mouth.

Whatsa matter Timmy? Still stuck in the well?

No response to any of the valid points I made, just insults. As expected. Who's afraid to answer who?

No well here, and I don't, nor have I ever, needed anybody here to rescue me from the likes of you. Just because you think you're brilliant and witty doesn't make it so. You still strike me as being just as pathetic as you were from the first post of this thread.

TJ-

I looked at the article, but it's long. I haven't read it yet, but I'll try to find the motivation.

My point on the Canadians was that we are giving them a bye only because we don't know it's a problem. If I knew it was a problem, I might be upset about. I personally have no problem with Mexicans or anyone else taking the menial jobs. Somebody has to do it and I'm glad it's not me. My problem is only with the total lack of respect for our society that seems to come with many Mexican immigrants. Speak Spanish if you (generic you) want to. Celebrate May 5 if you want to. Wave the Mexican flag if you want to. But don't rub it into everyone's face. And treat your new home with respect. When you visit someone in their home, you don't insult them. You treat them with respect. It's not that hard to understand why many Americans are upset.

I realize there is no law forcing you to know English, that's why I said you had a good point. I think maybe there should be a law, but I'm afraid any arguments I could come up with to support it might be rationalizations. This requires more thought than I've given it.

LapDog
(not upset about the Lassie comment, it was kind of funny)

And you've called ALL OF US racists throughout this thread - anyone who disagrees with you. You've done it thoroughly and consistently, and you damn well know it.

It's a little hard to take the high road when you're mired in shit, pal.

Frazod,

I don't know if you read any of my posts or not. I ask Taco to show me one school district in the United States where anything other than English was taught as the primary language. All I get is some of his name calling. I ask several other questions regarding immigration. As usual he ignores them. When confronted with any facts he just ignores them.

Actually, that is a lie. But whatever. You've painted me in the light that you want to see me, so carry on. Like I said, you go back and show me where I called Dog a racist. Go ahead. Try.

I suppose you would know.

Actually, I kindly pointed you in the direction of the Constitution. Look up "First Amendment."

I never made any claims as to schools that teach spanish as a first language. I'm sure that there are some... But I've made no such claims.

I've only pointed out that we have a constitution, and within that constitution is a clause called the "First Amendment." Please, look it up.

You've finally unveiled the truth of the matter. We don't mind Mexican people coming over here. What we have a problem with is all the Catholics!

LapDog
(just kidding people)

No, its not a lie. Everyone who's been here knows your MO. Just because I'm not inclined do dig through multiple pages of your bullshit to prove it at 12:20 a.m. on a work night doesn't change the facts. I clearly remember you mocking Lap Dog as "Frazod's Lap Dog" and blasting him with the same crap your hit everyone else with - granted, you haven't singled anyone else out the way you have me, but that really doesn't change things much, does it?

To me, the truth is the truth. To you, the truth is whatever crap you're spewing at the moment.

Again, as expected, no response to the overpopulation thing, and no admission that Mexico must be held accountable for its own problems. Just more smokescreen. You're falling into a very regular pattern.

You just refuse to pay attention, don't you?

Your other stuff is indeed a lie. And if you don't want to bother to prove that your not a liar, that's your deal. I never called Lap Dog a racist. I did call him you lap dog, because he has had to consistently come to your rescue.

But don't worry... You don't need to prove anything, because someone will come by to bail you out without actually searching for the evidence. Probably HC.