If anything the fact that I have children (or anyone for that matter), would only strengthen my belief.

Racist!!

Philly if anyone ever laid a finger on my son I would likely want to go out and put a bullet in that person's head. That hardly makes that action fair or the right thing to do according to the law. Or even morally for that matter.

You keep playing that card... And it isn't helping your argument.

You are no more qualified to dole out advice on how I might react to having children than you are to offer predictions of reaction to unknown events. If anything, I would think raising a child in this world of complete and utter shit would only intensify my feelings. I certainly worry about the world my 17 year old Goddaughter (who, coincidently, was molested at age 14 by the father of one of her friends) is heading into.

Ask me how I feel about child molestors. Especially those who get off with a slap on the wrist because they're well-connected.

That they did. They are amazing people. They are also pathetic sheep completely dependent upon the charity of others.

Libs like Micjones make me sick to my stomach.

Yeah, lets have soooo much compassion for these murdering scumbags. Nevermind they killed innocent lives. Lets give them a nice cell where they can just live out the rest of their important lives.

Riiiiight.

Oh to the thread starter, I hope he burns in hell. Cheers!

I am sorry about your Goddaughter. That is terrible. What, if you don't mind, did happen, to him? Anything?!?!

Hey Fraz, how do you feel about child molestors? Especially ones that get a slap on the hands because they are well connected? Posted via Mobile Device

That's surprising. I have 3 children and my view on this is very similar to frazod's. So, I take it that you have children. Do you believe in the belt? Or do you just smile and say "that was a bad thing you did, little Johnny....please don't do it again"?

And people who think they own a monopoly on what America is and should be make me sick at mine.


I could've sworn the man in question was only an accomplice.

I am truly sorry for your family's tragedy. I am sorry for Mr. Drummonds family tragedy as well. Although I do believe in second chances, it seems as though he had quite a few and just couldn't find the straight and narrow. If he has now come clean and has repented as you say, then all will be well with the big man when it is all over. I'm sorry, I can't sign your petition. Our system is too crowded with 4 time losers as it is. Like I said, if god forgives him, then that is all that really matters. Sorry.

I spank my son when it's necessary.
I don't spare the rod.

this thread keeps going down the path of wrongness

theres no exits

no traffic signs

wheres the cops when you need em

The molestation was bad enough, but it wasn't as bad as you may be thinking; basically, she was sleeping on the couch and woke up to find this creep on top of her with his hands down her pants. The guy got arrested, but he was a city official and knew people. Now, it utimately cost him his job and his marriage, but his sentence, after pleading guilty is - I shit you not - six months in jail, TO BE SERVED ON HOLIDAY WEEKENDS. The fucker walked out of the courtroom uncuffed - my goddaughter didn't even get the satisfaction of seeing him led off in cuffs.

Meanwhile, this prick's kids closed ranks around daddy and painted my goddaughter as a lying whore, basically ruining her reputation just as she was starting high school in a small town. Now she's sullen and withdrawn, her grades and attitude are shit, and she (quite understandably) has zero faith in much of anything.

so why is he afraid?

if death is better then why wouldn't he welcome that instead of asking to rot in prison the rest of his life?

Damn, that's ****ed up and sad at the same time

Excellent point

charity of others how?

Looks like he's rightfully going to be "following" Nikklason to Hell.

:shrug: I was wondering the same thing. They’re self sufficient and want it that way.

The guys KILLED a couple people who were HELPING them. Good Samaritans! WTF.

No wonder people don't help people anymore... shitty people like this dude who is about 'Ride the Lightning", as Iowanian said.

yeah, not signing this. **** that dude.

Basic existence. They'll do fine in polite society, but what happens if that breaks down?

My god, I'm sorry Fraz. Its bad enough for her that she was molested, but then his kids made HER out to be the bad guy in the situation. Just makes me so sick to think of scum like him. Her life is ruined, because he's a pervert.

If you can give me the link to a petition that makes the August 27th date change to a date of August 8th, I would gladly sign that.

People usually get religious when death is on the way.

He knows he will be judged for what he really did, and would like to delay that a little.

**** THAT! That is horrible dude. I don't even know what to say.
Posted via Mobile Device

Man that is horrific. For a 12 pack of Sam Adams if you give me the name of the guy and the kids, justice can be served.

makes you wish you really could go to don corleone for justice

Her dad's shotgun has been in my closet for the past couple of years. He can't be trusted with it.

I can barely be trusted with it.

Her family is planning on moving out of state to give her a fresh start, but the damage is done.

Yea, I guess that is what I would have to do. But that is the bitch of it right there, they shouldn't have to, she did nothing wrong, and THEY have to change their lives, and he has to go to prison on holliday weekends?

Maybe the fresh start will help her? I hope so, for all of you.

He's on the national pervert database. Honestly, I don't recall his name (obviously I've never met the man). I'll post a link to his page later.

Man, i am completely serious. How is it that the corksucker is able to walk, drive, etc. around town and feel safe? I would be going freaking ninja on his ass. I applaud your self control I guess.

Is it a crime to harass someone on their page?

My self-control mainly came from her mother going out of her way to make sure I didn't know who the guy was. She wouldn't tell me or let anybody else tell me. I never knew who he was until after it was all over. That's why I don't recall him name - I've only seen it once. And he lives out of state now, somewhere in Iowa.

Poor girl. I have a little girl, and I guess this crap just strikes so close to home that I can almost feel my blood pressure go up when I hear about stuff like that.

We'd all be speaking German if the rest of us hadn't defended us as well as them. Of course they did nothing to help.

Kind of like if your children were brutally raped and murdered.. It would change your perspective on the death penalty..

But yet you said earlier that emotion should not predict punishment.. Kind of the same way you are telling him that it might be different if he had kids..

Which is it?? Does emotion play a factor or only when you want to use it??

Yeah they also destroyed the house and planted grass over it.. They totally wiped out any memory of that building, killer or children ever being there..

WOW. Major flashback. I remember when this happened.

Yet you just played the exact same card in saying Frazod on his feeling differing from godchildren to if he had children..

All you do is ramble nonsense and deflect.. And then turn around do nothing to enforce your argument but say 'keep playing that card'..

Your views on this subject and pretty much every other subject are whacked..


Reading your thoughts on this and then comparing it to Gangster rap and black lifestyle thread is very telling of you..

At least the guy is on the database. He may not be in jail, or dead (as I certainly would like to make him), but his life is trashed. He'll be on the sex offender database forever, and I'm sure there are people in his town who check that list and fuck with him just to do it.

I'm not going to post his identity, mainly because if anything unfortuante would happen to this piece of shit, my goddaughter's family would immediately be suspected, and they've already been through enough over this shit.

Skip stated my point a bit better than I did.

i like germans. its the irish scum i dont care for.



:)

But yet did nothing to stop four killings.. And kept with the killers..


But go on deflecting.. You are good at it..

Sweet I think I will trace your IP and call child services.. That is what you would do as a good liberal?? yes/no??

i gotta admit sometimes i drive by those places and envy that lifestyle though.
mostly on days id rather grind peoples bones to dust then look at them.

Fry the dirtbag.

I know what you mean.

I'm anti-death penalty, in all cases.
But I'm not going to sign that petition.
It's not honest.
Not that a lack of honesty is a reason to kill someone, but I just don't want to be a part of something like that. If there were a petition to outlaw capital punishment, I'd be the first to sign it.

I want to address the issue that always comes up of the family deserving to see the guy die, though. I feel for the victims and their families. I hope I never have to endure the pain that they feel. I've only lost one person close to me, my father by natural causes, and that pain will never leave me. I understand it's a human emotion to want revenge... to even take part in revenge. But I just don't believe for one second that even a small part of the hole left in their lives will be filled by being a part of killing the person responsible. I feel that violence begets violence. Maybe they will "feel" better, but I doubt it. Maybe they will feel "avenged," but what have they traded for that feeling? I understand we are talking about, in most pro-death penalty peoples' minds, the taking of a life with no value... but it is taking a life, nonetheless. I just can't comprehend how that would make a person feel better about their loss.
My wife and I have discussed this, and we've heard the same reasoning that always comes up, and another one is, "What if that were your wife or child?" It'd be tough. I'd be full of hate, and questioning... the same emotions as anyone, I would imagine. But for us, our faith tells us it is our job to forgive. It is our job to better the world. So I guess we imagine a scenario where maybe by keeping a murderer alive, they can do some good. Maybe they can teach someone else how not to end up in the bad places they did. Maybe they can do work for the families of the victims. I don't know... maybe some good can come from it. I do know that if we as a society kill them... no chance for them to ever do good will ever happen. I know that's idealistic, and in a real-world time and place, would be hard to do... but it's how we believe.

This thread clearly indicates that I have no need to post the poll question: "What are you doing to relieve or deal with your pre-preseason game jitters?"

He should be sentenced to working on a hog farm for the rest of his life.

That would be cruel and unusual punishment.

The problem is ideology.. It does not exist in these people.. Say we use your example and have/force these people to help others.. I guarantee that that 80-90% of them hurt somebody else or do another crime while they are rehabilitating..

Now if you want to neuter/Unix or somehow mentally change them with a lobotomy then go for it.. We neuter dogs to cut down on impulses and breeding.. Why the **** can't we do this to serial rapists and molesters??


As for the vengeance/justice I had a friend jumped and stabbed by punks.. Thankfully it missed his artery in his leg.. The wanna-be gang bangers ended up with alibis with their friends lying.. Justice was payed with a severe beat down and a promise they never **** with any of our friends.. Almost 8 years now and no problems.. And yes it did feel a hole, knowing that those scum got some justice after they nearly killed somebody and got away with it in the court system..

It took me a while to get through this thread and of course, Sully summed up our belief. But I wanted to add that I think we get confused about justice and vengeance.
In Frazod's case, would it be more healing for his goddaughter to witness the man in cuffs being dragged off or would it be more healing for her to find help to remedy the pain, help like forgiveness or grace?
In the case of a man who kills another, would the family of the victim be healed by seeing him "fry" or would they be healed by coming to grips with their own pain and getting past that pain?
Justice, imo, is not vengeance, but grace. And if we truly are concerned for the victim's family, no amount of death will repair and mend their wounds and while it isn't on the spot satisfying for those who suffer, in the long run, a path of justice brings much more peace.

If I gave the impression that we force these people to do good, I apologize. I don't think it's possible. If they don't want to take part in bettering the world, then they can sit in a lonely 5x10 and live in their own world, outside of even the population of the prison, AFAIC. If their crime was enough to merit what is now the death penalty, I wouldn't even advocate that their "rehabilitation" be allowed outside of prison walls.

many of these people don't do it for sexual gratification.

Justice is not extending grace to someone who wantonly disposed of multiple other people's lives essentially for their own convenience. Justice is making them pay the full penalty for what they have done.

There have to be consequences or nobody will worry about what they do.

That makes a difference how??

Justice is for the ones who are still alive, the family of the victims...my argument is what THEY need is justice, not vengeance because those two things are not the same thing, imo.

I would be fine with that, if our system actually forced it.. The problem is some group of liberals will say that these people need more freedoms in prison and we are denying them lifes privileges..

I would before getting rid of the death penalty if it meant life in prison of hard labor.. 12 hours a day of hard labor, and confinement and breakfast/lunch/dinner the rest... Basically all they see is a cell and labor until they die..

But it will never happen...

I hate to speculate, but I'm guessing Sully and his wife are Christian.
If that is true that is precisely what the Christian view of grace is.

i would like to apologize/retract my starting of this thread. in all honesty, i only knew what my parents had told me and the brief article that skillicorn's wife wrote. after reading the court documents, i actually feel bad for asking people to sign the petition. mods please feel free to delete this thread.

Victims tend to not be able to heal while the person who murdered their loved one lives. Every breath [s]he takes is another remind of breaths their loved one doesn't take, AND each breath pushes that person's life calculus one breath ahead of the life they took.

Have you ever had a client get the death penalty?

You can sign thia petition at the link below. Thanks.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/help-thread-starters-use-paragraphs

I have been in the position of the victim's family. I can't speak for everyone, but in our case there was no urge for revenge. Someone being put to death wouldn't have made the pain go away, only time can do that. We really weren't all that concerned with whether the sentence was death or life in prison, only that it be over so we could move on with our lives.

Not saying some families wouldn't or shouldn't want that.

Oddly, despite my own experiences, I'm not really pro death penalty. It's not out of sympathy to the criminals. Most of them are guilty and their punishments are just. But the fact that even just a few might be innocent makes me believe that we should do away with it. That, and the exorbitant cost. We spend millions upon millions of dollars trying to put people to death, far more than it costs to lock them away for life.

I could go on for a long time on this subject, but I won't. I really just wanted to touch on the subject of revenge. And again, I realize that I don't speak for the families of all victims.

You know what dude, begging for votes for some shitty band contest is bad enough but asking people to sign a petition based upon the petitioner's side of the story and not the facts is lame, and F him, I hope he fuggin dies slowly.

As for you - posting that shit should be immediate nuthooks.

Oh now you show up to see the Hell you created!!! :)

You can sign this petition at the link below. Thanks.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/everyone-should-smoke-weed-and-drink-beer-at-least-once

Thanks.
I realize I made a sweeping generalization about revenge, but I also realize different people are wired differently. It's nice to see a take from someone who went through it.

Hey, it made for an interesting discussion. I have no issue with the thread.

Just curious: do you think your parents know the whole story? And if not, do you think knowing the whole story will affect their relationship with the wife of this guy?

Sorry to hear about your experience, RJ. That would be tough.

i am not really sure. i emailed them the documents, so i'll probably hear what they have to say tomorrow. my dad is a journalist, and he met the guy while doing some sort of story about death row, and now both of my parents have become friends with him and his wife and visit him once in a while.

Holy crap..your dad IS Truman Capote.

Sorry TM, After reading the account of what happened this guy was in on 4 murders.
He wasn't an innocent bystander just along for the ride.
He needs to be put down.

I was going to go the other way till I read this and say that it would be cheaper to go ahead and off him instead of housing him in prisons that are already full and feeding him and providing medical and dental care and and and all the things that my tax dollars pay for.
I would like to know what the cost is per year to house a convict on death row is VS. The legal costs to put him to death.
I am of the opinion that once convicted and sentenced to death you get one chance at an appeal and then your sentance should be carried out swiftly as to not waste extra tax dollars to keep you alive on death row for long periods of time. I have heard of inmates on death row for some 20 yrs. WHY?

Perhaps I was a little too harsh in my initial judgement of you. Sounds like you might be a decent fellow just a little too soft in this guy, IMO. You have a strong opposition to the death penalty while I have strong support for the death penalty. We will just have to agree to disagree.

atleast micjones music is fly! I need to get me a cd and bump it in my prelude!

You are completely wrong. The reason for things like prison and the death penalty is not for revenge. It is for justice and a deterrent for others. I hear in Iran that hey cut off your hand if you get caught stealing. Do you think they have much problems with thefts?

The thread that won't die.