It's your fault your husband turned to drugs and alcohol. Had he married a Thai gal, he'd have never been in that situation.

I think men have some part in this as well. Seems women need to start being valued for something other than their tits. I know I'm walking into a minefield right now and I know I am just as guilty as any guy of doing it, but even when guys talk to each other, they should have some responsibility in making sure women are valued for more.

I'm pretty sure she's owning her part in this or I would have zero tolerance for her at this point. You should forget about her failures because they're hers and she knows all about them.

What we should be learning from her posts is probably what she learned about herself. Intimacy was lacking from her relationship. Instead of intimacy she got violence and intimidation. That's not a basis for a healthy marriage whatsoever.

So it's okay that he was just emotionally absent? doesn't he have some responsibility in being part of this covenant and if he isn't holding his end of the covenant, doesn't that break the covenant?

I think it's because I like looking at women.
Really.

I think I'm not nuts in that way because when I see a pretty girl, I think "Oh wow, pretty girl." Like her asthetic beauty is art. Not competition. Her "value" has nothing to do with mine.

I find myself competing far more with men than I do with women.

Plus, honestly. How we look is the one thing we can't control. Maybe some adjustments, but ultimately you don't get to control what you look like. I'd much rather walk into a room and have the boys come running because I'm loads of fun to be around.

I don't know why you're not nuts that way, but I like it!

I know what you're saying.

The counter-argument for this, however, is that women shouldn't give a shit about what men think or say. A woman's individual sense of self worth should absolutely not be defined by a man.

This is a learned response, though. From an early age, women are often taught that the "happily ever after" involves finding the prince. Think classic Disney ending. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, but women need additional healthy models for what defines success.

Back to my manly roots: I value a woman's ass as much as her tits. I keed. Sort of.

When mamma's happy, everyone is happy

Its a double edges sword....


The woman wants a guy to provide, meet her expectations in home, cars, possessions, lifestyle and vacations. He works, he works overtime, he picks up extra work to bring home what he thinks he needs to bring home to keep the family happy.

The wife gets board and pissed off and resentful that he's gone so much, that he's working. She feels neglected because he's working so damn hard to give her the things she said she needed, so she takes the car he bought her, drives to the bar and uses the clothing, new shoes and jewelry and latest stink bait, to "console" herself with some other man, who "really gets her"...

Its always the mans' fault.


I spent enough time running wild, in the bars and whatnot, that I've been around enough women to have some ideas how this works. I don't think I've ever met an aspiring tramp that ever said "My husband is nice, I'm just a pirate hooker"....they always blame the husband/boyfriend.

Men have our own set of problems...

I don't believe Jilly is saying what I did was the brightest thing in the world, I believe she's agreeing with my mindset.

It not being all that different from other female mindsets.

At the end of the day, I made one guy very happy, and I found the courage to leave the unhappy guy. There were other options available but I was too scared. I have since rectified that.

I'm cool with that. I have to be.

You have met my ex-wife? :D

Seriously though you are pretty much correct.

I'm gonna disagree with you there. My wife wouldn't turn a lot of heads if she rolled out of bed, threw on some mom jeans and walked around town. But when she fixes her hair, puts on some tasteful face paint, and wears some fancy jeans with those smokin high heel boots then I look and every other dude looks as well.

I hurt everyone in the end. Even my kids. I've moved worlds since to try and make ammends. Some have allowed me to, some haven't.

You always notice a production, baby.

They are? Not in the last 20-30 years, they're not. Women are wired so that their self-worth is defined by their family - their kids. That's why their maternal instinct is so unbelievable to we men.

I think it's cool that you'll openly discuss it. I share for two reasons:
1. Venting is healthy.
2. I hope somebody reading can learn something from my mistakes and life experience.

I'm not talking June Cleaver, here. The traditional romantic comedy is not far removed from the traditional Disney ending.

In a lot of ways, our culture still preaches that to be happy, especially for women, they need to be someone's wife, with 2.5 kids.

There are a lot of useless dickholes posing as men/husbands/boyfriends too. I'll not defend them.


men cheating on their wives/kids is just as wrong.

Awww....excuse us, while we have a moment.

But I think that's true. I love women. Think they are beautiful, gorgeous creatures, even at their ugliest (for the most part). But, the self esteem part comes in, for you - in that you are gifted, talented, funny...so you've never needed your looks, they've just been a bonus. Hell, i think you're gorgeous and haven't a clue what you look like. But I think there are so many women who have no clue that they have gifts other than their beauty.

That is good that you are trying to make amends.

I feel sorry mostly for my daughter having to be around her mom the whore and slut. I only say that because she is on her 3rd marriage having cheated on her first 2 husbands.

Funny thing is her new husband is Catholic and she recently became a Catholic against my objections but that is a whole other story.

Hey, we have that in common!

Nah, I just heard at church on Sunday someone ask this 5 year old girl in the congregation if she had a boyfriend? she said, gross no, and this lady actually said to her, "well, you better get one soon." I found it disgusting.

Really? I see a lot of career glamorizing, dual income families, broken homes.

People are tired of the goofy dude with the hot wife and 2.5 kids sitcoms. They're watching Desperate Housewifes and other soap operas which glamorize divorcees sleeping around trying desperately to have their basic needs met.

Count your blessings. My ex became Muslim and still practices Islam even after she split from her new husband.

That is crazy.

I just got finished going through the whole annulment process. I was led to believe Catholics were against abortion but I guess they make exceptions or they are hypocrites.

I probably share too much. And no one has ever asked me the questions that I'd avoid like the plague anyways, but there is an intrinsic need to be understood.

I guess.

I'd say the culture has done a great job in telling women they can have it all.

No one told them.

...But then I get impatient with that argument.

They SHOULD be able to identify all the ways they are uniquely glorious. Without being told. But then I've had what I'd consider to be a perfect 10 crying on my shoulder wondering why no one wanted her. On stage or in real life.

Women are ****ing nuts, and should just a free pass at life.

It's better now than it's ever been. But I still don't think it's where it needs to be.

it is unrealistic..the price gets paid somewhere along the line. already has.

I get impatient with that argument as well....it's just weak. Why does anyone have to be told anyways? Look at men, the best thing you can do for them is stroke their ego...hell, sometimes that's better than stroking their cocks. I think humanity is just wired to want encouragement and to feel accepted, in all honesty.

and

except me, of course. I'm not nuts. I'm sticking with that.

True.

But if a woman fails at her job, it's no big deal. If she fails at being a mother, she's a social pariah.

It's the opposite for men.

Not following you here. What's unrealistic?

I'm saying that a woman's sense of self-worth should have nothing to do with a man, and that should be the message. I don't think it's being sent very strongly, either.

My opinion. Others are, of course, welcome to disagree.

..is there a name for female deadbeat dads?

please don't downplay the revocation the man card of men who don't provide for their family..it screams loser.

sounds like Oprah..;)

I'd venture to say that a woman's self worth has alot to do with a man...namely her father...and later her husband...women seek love.

ive had one steady woman cheat on me and i gave her every reason in the world. lol.

I am not sure how old you are but from where I'm sitting (44) men do not get a pass for failing at fathers. MOF, they have the burden of being good at their jobs AND being good at home.

Women must be good at home and it's a plus if she's good at her job. There is not the social stigma of a woman failing to provide for her family the way there is for men.

Agree with the father part.

Did you not see my discussion of tits and ass? :clap:

30. And I know plenty of young men in a culture of "it's my baby's mamma's problem."

I'd guess your older generation is more home and hearthy. The younger generation thinks there's other things to do. And the more we encourage the fact that a young woman can do anything and everything independently, the more she's going to be asked to do so.

I don't know about that at all. I think there is alot less social stigma on a man sucking as a father than a women sucking as a mother.

Women who find affirmation from the outside and equate that affirmation with love do, I agree with you there.

Ultimately, it's up to a woman (and a man) to find that they have to find their validation from within and whatever comes from the outside only seeks to REINFORCE what you believe and NOT define it for you.

Some of us women figure this out early in life but most us take a good portion of our lives to get there.

I agree with that. My disagreement was with the notion that a man can suck as a father as long as he's good at his job. I disagree with that. These days the male figure has the responsibility to be the primary breadwinner AND an equal partner in the household.

As such, their burden has shifted along with women's.

Well, I'm sorry MOST men younger than 30 do not know WTF is going on in their lives let alone how to care for a wife and child in the way they will 10 or 20 years down the road. That's what the 20s is for. That is why I think it's important for men (and women) to wait until their late 20s to start families or even get married.

And the notion that women can have it all is really fiction. The notion that ANY person can have it all is fiction. Somewhere along the line there are crossroads and sacrifices are made. The key is being able to live with the choices made based on those sacrifices.

I think that is ultimately the idea of having it all. Looking back on your choices and feeling you made the right ones and the sacrifices you chose were not in vain.

Ok I agree with that.

I went back and re-read your post I mis-read it because you were talking about men providing for their family.

A lot of men are having trouble being husbands and fathers NOW because their parents didn't give them a good example a decade or two ago.


The product of a baby-mama, bad divorce, or 2 mom's isn't going to KNOW how to be a good father/husband without some positive example in front of them, with rare exceptions.

same for men...

I confront a cheater by cheating myself. If she finds out about it **** it who cares?

I'm sorry if I started sounding like an ass. I'm wont to do that from time to time. Perhaps I tend to put my own feelings stemming from my past relationship(s) into conversation and have them inadvertently affect my objectivity regarding the subject at hand.

The past is the past, and the only thing we can do is hopefully learn from it and move on and be a better person in the future (if that's your/our/we/he/she's goal).

This.

Human pair bonding has been extensively studied and there are several courses one could take at the university level to elucidate any questions that you have.

You won't get answers as cut and dried as what you seek above because you are looking for a very specific kind of answer for a heteronormative, nuclear family that is culturally constructed.

Boy this thread got funny...seeing people who think they know express some kind of thought when they themselves can't even get over their own personal issues.

Its easier to "figure out" or "fix" other people's problems than your own. Its the emotional investment that provides such a problem in seeing things the way they are.

Also, people like to project. Its just human nature.

Its best not to fight the inevitable. Some people just suck. I am pretty crappy myself sometimes. You just have to go with it.

I've actually done that. It didn't go well. Especially when I asked her if she'd ever thought of using her hands.

Huh. I had a girl tell me that her husband complained that she used her hands too much.

... calculating time spent using hands ...

hmm.

What is the appropriate amount?

Well hey not everyones the same...

Hard to explain.

This is an "in person" conversation. I leave it to my betters, whom I hope are single.

We need a chart or wheel or something then.

Spin the wheel make the deal!

Well, this girl used her hands, technically, but it was more like she trying to mimick a kid with downs syndrome trying to play handball and knead play-doh simultaneously.

So I'd probably say it's not a matter of how much, but how well.

Which is something else I said, as I recall. Funny how that relationship didn't last. Not sure why.

What did I tell you about picking up women at the special needs home?

I've always used the line, "Get that Tussin out, girl."

You said it was easy, if memory serves. Exact quote was "almost as sure a thing as rubbing beef on my dong so my dog would lick".

ROFL

That was a way better response than I expected.

The worst thing I did is tell a girl I saw in her underwear for the first time that she had a big butt... That was all I saw...

Why would any of us say anything that would take us from getting guaranteed p*ssy, to not getting any? Its like some sort of sick version of Tourette's

That is literally one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

Depends on how strong her gag reflex is...

Haven't you ever seen a girl that looked way better in clothes than naked?

Sometimes this shit can't be helped. It's a reaction.

Kind of like when I opened the coaching staff thread. I said, "Ohhhhhh, ****." I've probably responded similarly in other settings.

Sure but I don't say it, Jesus, have some self control.

Sorry. Sometimes the truth has to be told.

Most of the mouse-hung mother ****ers around here probably think a gag reflex has to do with an actual gag.

She did. I have a problem with being too honest.

I tell myself I suck, too, so its not like I'm not equal-opportunity.

Ahahaha...

Don't try to exploit the gag reflex I got puked on once...it wasn't pleasant.

A woman who's willing to keep going to the point of puking is a keeper...Anyone who's that selfless is a great chick.

I stopped having self-control the second I decided I'd rather help put Mr. Kleenex's kids through college than spend one more night swimming in orca's school

I personally would have cut your fingertips off and pulled your teeth out. Than I would have torched your body. Anyone who ruins a relationship because the "SEX" is good has either never been cheated on and dealt with it from someone u love or is a complete sack of shit. You should be beaten!!!

RUN! It's my ex!

This is why I will never get married... Why would I want to be that vulnerable towards the actions of someone else?

People who get married are crazy!

Uh huh.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but I'm serious. All you ever see and hear is how being married sucks, yet almost everyone is...

Relationships, for that matter suck. Why would you want to be with someone (like the OP) who you let have that much emotional influence over you?

I know this is a football forum, and probably way to serious and OP to really get into, but its something I'll never get.

Being married is like having Tyler Thigpen as your QB for eternity......ok I just depressed myself.

And you have to pay him Franchise Tag salary... :-)

Have you been giving people shit for ridiculous comments?

You need to get into some better relationships if that's really your perspective.

Marriage can be a great thing.