Why you gotta' go associate something as beautiful as BBQ with Twitlock? He's clearly a Wimpy Burger by-product; 2 demerits for you. :p:D

Nice post.

Reading through this thread, had to comment on this...

Ummm maybe I missed something as well, but this was NEVER mentioned in the conference call...I listened to the entire thing while it happened and Cassel didn't state he was in the building nor that he couldn't talk to anyone.

The only thing mentioned was when someone asked Cassel if he was in Kansas City and he replied with a simple yes. The conference call was done after that.

It was 'assumed' by media that he very well 'could' have been in the building, but it was never stated as such. Just Mojo making it up as he goes along.

Just more ignorance from you. Amazing. If you SAY you want a guy, then teams trade above you to get him.

The difference with the Chargers/Giants is the Chargers had the FIRST pick you moron. No one could trade above them.

No, they didn't blow the Cassel phone call. They underplayed the Cassel trade. CP would have paraded him around in tights and a cape as the savior of the franchise.

Pioli is smart enough NOT to put that pressure on him.

Is it beyond your comprehension that some of these questions have not been answered yet?

See, Herm would tell you everything that was going on. And, that was nice. We were 'in on it'. Only, things change, and with that, so do decisions. His honesty made him look like a hypocrite and a liar in the end.

Now, lets look at these 'questions' that you have.

#1) This probably depends on whether Crennel comes in. Right now, I am sure they have contingency plans. What do they gain by making them public?

#2) Again, right now, who knows? Thigpen may come in and beat out Cassel. Haley has NOT promised the position to Cassel (at least not publicly). Therefore, if the unexpected happens, and Thigpen outplays Cassel, then Haley is not breaking his word. I am sure that everyone in the Chiefs organization 'believes' it will be Cassel. But why on earth would you just hand the guy the job?

#3) More nonsense. First, I think the Chiefs coaches won't fully know what they have as far as players go until they actually get them on the field. I think they are going in the direction of the 3-4. And, I am sure they feel that certain players can do certain things. But, those players haven't actually done them on tape in a 3-4. So, there is still some question. Also, why not leave a little bit of question? I am sure that most NFL teams assume they are going to the 3-4. But, why not at least make them question it a little as they go through the draft?

#4) Again, isn't it possible at this time that they are not sure? Give me a freaking breaking. The Chiefs haven't made it onto the practice field. They haven't had a preseason game. Haley has no real experience with Gailey and I imagine he will give Gailey the opportunity to call the plays in the preseason and get a feel for him and then decide. Again, I don't think this has been decided just yet.

#5) I think it will be Denny Thum. But, why announce it now? He is a member of the old regime. Why on earth would you want to take away from the fans perception of a whole new organization?

We don't have a 'right' to know any of this stuff, especially at this point when some of these decisions haven't even been made.

I disagree with this wholeheartedly. Have you read some of the posts on here about it?

EVERYBODY would give Pioli a pass if he drafted Sanchez or Stafford and they flamed out. It would be a cavalcade of "it happens" reposts.

However, a large contingent of the fans (myself included) feel like Cassel's played in the NFL, he's been somewhat successful already, and if he DOESN'T pan out, it's on Pioli.

Going with Cassel is FAR riskier to Pioli's reputation, specifically because it's viewed as the safer move.

I don't really understand that logic. I don't see one way or the other making a difference. Any pick or pick up that doesn't pan out is gonna be on Pioli.


PhilFree:arrow:

I highly doubt Keitz would be on here defending Whitlock's article, considering the first thing the article did was call out Keitz...

Of course. But Cassel will be more damning because Pioli supposedly knows every single thing about the guy.

If Scott has this much info. at his disposal and still ****s up, that doesn't speak well about his ability to evaluate talent.

Even with the best scouting, he'd know far less about Sanchez or Stafford. Plus there are all the other issues that go along with transitioning to the NFL that scouting/interviews cannot possibly account for.

People are going to be CONSIDERABLY more understanding if a a draftee flames out because:

1) there is a high probability they will, because that's what alot of high draftees do

2) Pioli spent 4 years in New England with Cassel, knows him, knows what he can do

3) Cassel has started a full season in the NFL, knows how to read NFL defenses, and has been successful in the league, even if it's only for a short time

Now with those 3 things being said, I'm not gonna be calling for Cassel's head 4 games into the season for any reason.

But you can bet your ass that the vast majority of the fanbase is not going to be as forgiving if Cassel doesn't pan out.

No way. You blow a top 10 pick, especially at QB, and nobody forgives you.

I don't remember any of my buddies calling for Carl's head in March of 1989. You're better than this.

Why "especially at QB"? It's a bit more expensive. A bit.

****ing up the Sims pick was just as terrible, if not more. There was talk about it, but it wasn't exactly Carl's albatross.

They'd be more forgiving of that than if Cassel flames out. Yes, they will.

I think the same people that wanted Sanchez would 'forgive' him if they drafted Sanchez. I think the majority of fans would not. Same with Stafford.

Not only did they defray the possible criticsm by trading a second, they also got another player in addition to Cassel.

I'm not picking on you, really, but this general language of "forgive" and "hold against him" is exactly why some claim that this fanbase is scared shitless of drafting a QB high in the draft.

You know what I'll hold against Pioli? 1. If he's dumb enough to draft a T at #3. 2. If he takes an ILB at #3 who doesn't become the bastard of Willis, Lewis, etc. These would be exponentially "dumber" moves.

They INVITED criticism by trading for a player that they've KNOWN INTIMATELY for 4 seasons.

Sanchez/Stafford could have some mental or emotional condition that there is no way of knowing about until they step on the field.

People would be pissed if we took a QB at #3 and he turned out to be a bust. But you're underestimating how they would react if the guy Pioli HAND-PICKED to be his starting QB somehow flames out.

I can't believe people have forgotten 2001 already.

You are talking about a fan base that had a hissy fit when the news broke that the team signed Vrabel. Nobody even knew what the compensation was and people were throwing Pioli under the bus. You miss on your QBOTF, you get crucified.

The fanbase had a hissy fit about Vrabel? Where, here?

I listen to KC radio pretty much all the time when I'm awake. The average fan isn't anything like it is here.

Fair point, the Planet has a mind of its own. There was some meltdown-age around here about Vrabel.

I still say that the average fan does not excuse a GM for missing on a QBOTF. If Denver got Cassel and he did well with the Broncs the response would be "we should have done that." If Sanchez, Stafford, or one of the rumored trade QBs like Leinart, Quinn, etc., get traded and do well people will say we should have drafted/traded for them. It always happens.

I'm not suggesting the fanbase would completely excuse him if Sanchez or Stafford flamed out. I'm suggesting they would be MORE pissed if Cassel, his hand-picked starter, flames out.

More forgiving than "completely livid" <> "forgiving" :)

#1) The people who were bashing Trent Green in 2001 were clueless. Given who his starting WR's were, and that the WR's were in flux constantly all season.... his interceptions were to be expected.

I think the level of play for Cassel to be successful is much less than if the Chiefs drafted a QB at #3.

If Cassel is merely a good game manager and a decent starter, most will consider the trade to be a success and good value.

If Stafford or Sanchez were taken at #3 and weren't absolute studs, then Pioli would be thrown under the bus. Especially if a guy like Curry goes on to have a Hall of Fame career.

I think Pioli has many ways to look good with the Cassel trade.

#1) If Sanchez is a total bust and he was the only one available.... Pioli will look good even if Cassel is also a bust.

#2) If the Chiefs draft a HOF player at #3, then Pioli will look good even if Cassel is a bust.

#3) If Cassel is merely a good game manager and they draft a great player at #3, Pioli looks great.

If Vrabel comes in and contributes for a couple years and is intrumental in turning around the defense.... then that can also help the view of this trade.

BUT, if the Chiefs drafted Sanchez at #3... then they are absolutely tied to whether that one pick becomes a franchise QB.

Oh, And, Cassel will start this year most likely. A rookie would be sitting on the bench for a couple years. The Chiefs will know much faster if Cassel is 'the' guy.

I know that I would be more pissed if a QB we picked at #3 flamed out than, I would be if a guy we traded for a 2nd flames out. That may be just me though.

We could play this game all day from the other perspective:

1. If QB selected at #3 becomes a HOF player, Pioli looks great.
2. If QB selected at #3 becomes a "good" player and the selection at #34 turns into a HOFer, Pioli looks great.
3. If QB at #3 and player at #34 are both "above average" players, Pioli looks great.

etc.

Cassel was a risky move. If both QB's happen to be on the board when the Chiefs select, fans will always compare the trajectories of these three players.

Frankly, I think we took the guy with the lowest upside.

dumb. just dumb.

Yes, dumb to factor in positional value when drafting. Very stupid, indeed.

I dissagree. I think that the QB at #3 would have to be a franchise QB... but I see what you are saying.

I don't think Cassel was a risky move. I think he will be a serviceable QB at worst that will give the Chiefs a chance to compete as they continue to draft and develop young QB's looking for the next great one.

Cassel has already played a season at a high level against NFL defenses, so from this point, he may not 'ascend' much more. So, I can see why he doesn't have too much upside.

But that is more because Sanchez and Stafford have proven nothing, so even getting to where Cassel was last year.... would be a tremendous achievement.

Dumb to factor in positional value above player evaluation. There are certain guys that transcend their typical positional value.

The problem with positional value is that there are people here that are using it as an absolute bar to drafting players. That's just a foolish approach, especially in a year where the talent on the top is bunched together rather than having the "elite" types of prospects.

Obviously we have to factor in circumstances, no question. And this year certainly presents some challenges.

I'm sure the criticism of my post was generated from my skepticism of the sure-fire HOFer, Curry, who will instantly become the leader of our destitute defense.

It could be that he's the pick. But I expect Pioli to take less to trade back, and Curry at 8-12 would make a hell of a lot more sense.

That would be sweet, but who do you think will be the other suitor and for what player? No sarcasm, just a straight question.

I wasn't aiming specifically at you, by any means. I just mean in general. The Chiefs are in an interesting position because the only players 'worth' a top pick this year in the minds of many pundits are QBs and LTs. Well, the Chiefs don't need either of them unless Halioli thinks Albert should be moved to RT for some reason. That puts the team in the position of having to either find a trade partner to drop down or to take a player that many will consider a 'reach'.

There's just no helping that this year. My guess is that Raji will be the pick, but that's obviously still fluid at this point.

Crabtree/Seattle would have been great leverage had the m-f'r not hurt himself.

No, I know. I was just using your post as a springboard to make a point. No worries.

I agree. I think Raji is going to be the guy. Makes me sick when thinking about Dorsey, though.

If both QB's were on the board, there are some possibilities: Jax at 8, SF at 10, or even Buff at 11.

We'd have to be willing to take much less than chart value, I'm sure, but there's little question that Stafford, in particular, would draw much interest.

47 Days. 47 days and this shit is over thank GOD.

No.... just postponed for 250 days or so.

Irrelevant. It doesn't matter WHY they hated Green, it only matters that they did. Fortunately for both Green and Vermeil, he righted the ship in 2002.

Agree. But the level of risk for Pioli personally is MUCH greater.

I can tell you with 100% unequivocal certainty that you're wrong on this. With Pioli's history - especially his history with Cassel - if Cassel turns out to be a "game manager" the large majority of the fanbase will be very unhappy about it. Chiefsplanet does not in anyway represent the majority of the fanbase.

Nope.

If said HOF player takes the Chiefs to the SB and wins it, IN SPITE OF Cassel, then yes. But since the chance of winning a SB while simultaneously having Cassel fail is slim to none, there's not much chance of this one happening.

Absolutely false.

Jax needs a O-linemen and they pick at 8. If we trade down to 8 I'd say don't draft Aaron Curry draft Everette Brown at 8.

God I hope we start doing some winning right off the top, or it will be another commencement of draft talk in week three.

Razorblades and glass cocktail; that's exactly what it feels like.

You're confusing the risk of the move to the team, aka wins and losses vs. the risk to Pioli's reputation in KC, aka being compared to Carl.

If Cassel doesn't come in here and become a Pro Bowl-caliber, playoff winning QB, Pioli will be "Carl Peterson II" for perpetuity.

Hell, there's ALREADY people making the comparison.

You're right in any other draft probably, but I don't think there's any way Curry lasts that long in this draft.

They would have to cause Curry won't be there.IMO.

It is all a sliding scale, but I will agree that most of the fan base does not react like Chiefsplanet.

Which is why the fan base will be appeased with a game manager so long as he was had for a second instead of a 1st.

Most of the fanbase isn't looking at all this nearly as closely as we do. If the Chiefs manage to duplicate their 90's run with just a little more playoff success, then Pioli will be hailed by the average fan.

And, you can't say anything about this situation with "100% unequivocal certainty". There are too many variables. If the Chiefs win a Super Bowl, and Cassel is merely a game manager... or EVEN if Thigpen were to beat him out.... most fans wouldn't give a flying flip what the Chiefs gave up for Cassel.

And, IF the guy they take at #3 was a primary piece, then the move for Cassel will be considered a good one.

As with most things, time will tell. I just think you are a little misguided about what most fans think.

I am not thinking that Cassel is going to be a franchise QB, but I still think the trade was a good one. I think it solidifies a position. And, the Chiefs aren't tied to Cassel like they would be with a rookie at #3, IMO.

Agree. I think a guy who can blitz the QB is more valuable to a team.

I think with the new regime, even if we are losing, the discussions will be more about what they are going to do to fix it rather than who we will draft.

This very well might be the case.

In a draft that's weak with defensive talent, I'd love to hear what Gun is whispering in the ears of the brain-trust up in Detroit: "He's the next DT. I can get it out of him..."

:banghead:

Explain instead of acting like a child

When I thought the Chiefs traded for Vrabel, I compared him to CP. However, I was ignorant of the situation.

Much like the people in here are ignorant for comparing CP to SP.

ONE FREAKING MOVE WILL NOT LINK SP TO CP IN THE AVERAGE FAN'S MIND.

How Scott Pioli is viewed will be based on his entire tenure as a GM for the Chiefs, not this one move.

Hey, I admit, I didn't like Sanchez and I didn't think Stafford was there. So, I think that this was the best that they could do this year. I am merely pleased that Cassel should solidify the position and allow the Chiefs to continue to draft and develop guys at the position and that they are not tied to Cassel.

I just think that the expecatations of a second round QB are much less than a top five QB.

That would be true if we actually drafted one. But we traded for a known (at least to Pioli) commodity.

Expectations are the same. Doesn't matter if some think we got a "good deal."

Will you still think that when Cassel signs a 6-year contract making him the highest paid player in franchise history, and one of the highest paid players in the league?

Oh my.

Mmm...that pesky ol' contract just doesn't want to come out and play it seems.

Not saying it's a good or a bad thing, but it will happen. He's already inked for 15 million for one year. Pioli didn't bring him here to be a one-year starter. The reason his trade price was low is because he is effectively a free-agent, and the acquiring team is going to pay a big price.

I know what you're saying.

It was the stark reality of reading it that made me throw up in my mouth.

But they won't be appeased, that's the problem.

We didn't trade a 2nd-round pick for just anybody. We traded a 2nd-round pick for the guy that our new GM has been evaluating for FOUR YEARS. They're not going to be happy with Cassel being a game manager.

Besides, we didn't JUST spend a 2nd-round pick. We also acquired a QB, which most likely precludes us drafting a QB at #3. In terms of TEAM value, we didn't give up the #3 and that's good.

But in terms of the fans WANTING a QB, we DID trade that #3 for Cassel, unless of course we do the unthinkable and draft one anyway.

The only way the Chiefs duplicate the 90's with just a little more playoff success is if Cassel pans out. Therefore, this point is moot.

You honestly mean to tell me that if Thigpen wins the starting job over Cassel, the fans aren't going to riot? What? If you're suggesting a hypothetical where Thigpen winning the job is overshadowed by us winning a Super Bowl WITH THIGPEN AS THE STARTER, please dispense with the hypotheticals from here on out. They only work when they're at least partially based in reality. :)

You're entitled to think that. 30 years of listening to the fans bitch says I'm right.

No, the team isn't. But Pioli and his reputation are.

IT ALREADY HAS.

You're drastically underestimating the average Chiefs fan.

The point that I am suprised isn't brought up more is that Cassel thrived in the spread offense last year and in the shotgun formation. The Cards played much of the same offense, and the Chiefs were similar with Thigpen.

I am really surprised that Mecca's head didn't explode with as much as he trashes Thigpen.

I think the biggest difference with Pioli and CP is that Pioli won't be afraid of making a move in fear of saving face with the fans. IF Cassel fails, he will be cut and the Chiefs will make a move. How long did the Chiefs stick with Grbac when it was clear he was not as good as the Chiefs expected?

I think so long as Pioli always appears to be moving the team in the right direction and trying to build the right way, as opposed to trying to sign stop gap players and making last gasp attempts at winning a championship, the average fan will know better than to compare him to CP.

Yeah, like the move or hate it, Pioli IS taking a BIG risk here, especially for his reputation. If Cassel signs a huge deal, then really sucks, Pioli's credibility is out the window.

That's not going to keep the fanbase from calling for his head.

It's just not going to go down that way. All I've heard from the call-in shows the past week is how this was the "safe" move, the "sure" move, the move that gives us "the best chance to win now". The average fan is going to be VERY disappointed if Cassel doesn't pan out because they've already set their expectations too high.

Hindsight is 20/20. Marcus Allen wasn't a "stop gap" move when he was acquired. He was a "stop gap"only after he failed to win a Super Bowl. Whether or not Pioli's moves are considered building blocks or band aids will depend on whether or not he WINS. If Pioli doesn't win, the Cassel move, along with every other move he makes, will be compared to Peterson.

IF Pioli doesn't win... fine, agreed. But, not the Cassel move specifically.

Oh, and if you listed to the fans that call in, they say that it is the best chance to win now....... not win it all...... just be more competetive. And, it is a combination of getting Cassel and being able to use the #3 pick on another impact player.

The two are invariably linked.

The fans fully expect Cassel to come in here and be a top-half QB right away. Despite the fact that we still have the #3 pick, that pick will almost certainly not be a QB and a large portion of the fanbase wants a star QB more than anything else.

The trade on the surface looks great because of what we gave up and also what we didn't have to give up. But if he doesn't produce, it won't matter what we gave up. Cassel, and Pioli, will get the heat for it.

It was talked to death in this thread.....

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=202284

Good call. Let's talk about this upcoming weekend's Chiefs vs. Chargers game.

I love the way people are buying that Vrabel was the only NE guy tied ti the Cassel deal. Pioli's a pretty crafty guy, but come on; this is about as transparent as it gets.

Is it okay to question Whitlock's articles as well?

What do you mean? Sorry, having a stoner moment here.

I'm saying this "bargain" wasn't had for Vrabel and the pick alone. Oh they can work the paperwork however they please, but two more NE cap-relief acquisitions right behind Vrabel?

Come on man; wake up.

When faced with a crucial personnel decision, a good GM is going to choose the "known" over the "unknown" 99 times out of 100. Well, maybe 97 times. Or 96. But, you get the idea.

The problem that Chiefs fans have (and the knuckleheads who wish to compare Pioli to Carl) is that Carl Peterson's "knowns" sucked. They sucked worse than other teams' "knowns" and they sucked worse than other teams' "unknowns". The facts speak for themselves; with precious few exceptions, the Chiefs have been woefully pitiable at selecting talent both in the draft and FA. On top of that, they have proven to be absolutely horrible at developing talent once they've acquired it.

I don't blame Pioli for going with the "known", but to compare the Cassel acquisition to Carl Peterson's endorsement of Grbak, or Bono, or Downfield Damon, is absurd. Pioli kicks Peterson's ass in every conceivable category (with the possible exception of the Sheer Incompetence Competition).

I guess it's going to take Chiefs fans and the media more time than I initially realized to come to grips with the fact that we aren't the same organization any longer.

FAX

You have to agree, however, that it's not difficult to see the parallels in this particular situation.

Team in position to draft a talent QB early in the draft, and the GM elects to go with a known commodity. It's remarkable, frankly, how long this organization has gone without drafting a QB in round 1. Remarkable.

Now, Pioli brings the jewelry, and this means an awful lot. An awful lot, but still...

I certainly agree that the circumstances are similar. But it's like pitting the Blind Boys of Alabama vs. a Navy Seal team in a Capture The Flag contest.

You know, NFL teams don't spend high draft picks on young quarterbacks because they want to. They draft them because they have to. If they already had someone who was capable of leading the team to victories, winning seasons, and playoff berths for the next 10 years, they'd draft another position.

FAX

That's probably a very apt analogy, and I hope it remains so.

Not sure about the second part, though. Denver is a good example. Plummer, assuming he didn't go flaky, was capable of winning and getting a team into the playoffs. This didn't sway the Rat.

How many USFL rings does Pioli have? Scoreboard Carl! /Mojo Jojo

I would counter by saying that there are always variables that might affect a decision to draft an "elite" quarterback prospect. The mental stability of the current quarterback and/or the working relation between that quarterback and the coaching staff are just two of these.

It's conceivable, of course, that a team might use a high pick to draft a quarterback for developmental purposes. However, that's extremely unusual when the team actually believes they already have a guy with 8 to 10 years of solid leadership and winning left in him.

My point is this; why should the Chiefs (or any team, for that matter) draft a young quarterback if and when they honestly believe there's another guy out there who, A) Has already had NFL experience, B) Proven he can win, C) Has a good working relationship with the GM, D) Is a "known" quantity, and E) Is young enough to lead for the better part of a decade? Add the fact that, in our case, quarterback is just one of the positions of need since the team is full of holes on both sides of the ball, and you have yourself a ding dang answer as to why Pioli did what he did.

The problem we (Chiefs fans) have is that the vast majority of Carl's moves in player acquisition (since DT) turned out poorly. Carl was GM. Pioli is GM. Chiefs fans automatically assume that, if Pioli did something reminiscent of Carl, the results will be similar. It's understandable, but it's an example of cognitive dissonance. These are different circumstances merely because the participants are different.

FAX

Are you talking about CJ Jones and Darrel Robertson? Because neither of those guys have any impact on the Pats' salary cap.