[QUOTE=Saccopoo;10009575]Cassel would've turned the ball over at his own 5 yard line on Thursday night football and lost the game. Alex drove down the field and took 8+ mins off the clock to put the team up 2 scores.

[QUOTE=duncan_idaho;10009602]Up to this point this year, he's only made plays in tough positions, not the normal easy ones we all expect him to.

What concerns?

I mean really. What concerns?

That he's not Matt Stafford?

What do you want?

And not that it matters much, because if you want something more than Smith, you aren't going to get it because Reid has already stated that he's wanted Smith as his QB for a while now and with Smith being 29, he's still got a minimum of five years in his "prime" stage as an NFL QB.

If you want to take a dump on this team and Smith because he's not hitting your expected fantasy numbers then I guess that's your option, but at the end of the day this team is 3-0 with him playing mistake free football.

The hypothetical world of "we'd be so kick ass if we had Elway in his prime" isn't going to happen. Not a single chance of it.

You realize then when assessing a HEAD coach you are factoring in more than just offense?

You are also forgetting something you were very vocal about.

How if Geno struggled, or any team for that matter on a short week that it had to be taken with a grain of salt. And being honest with ourselves, if you looked at the stat sheet, you really wouldn't know that the Chiefs had any problems at all. Over 100 yards rushing Alex Smith threw for 273, all that with no tight ends, McCluster as your slot receiver, Jamaal Charles got dinged in the first half, and Dwayne Bowe, with ONE catch.

All that, and I forgot to mention how bad Eric Fisher looked.

Reid gave up a lot for Smith. I'm pretty sure he's married to him.

I don't get the whole "we're playing Marty ball" talk.

Up to this point, the Chiefs have been a pass first offense that hasn't consistently ran the ball.

Looks better today to be married to Alex Smith, rather than Colin Krappypick


Two weeks in a row. AWFUL. if that were alex smith you would be losing your MIND.

Cassel would have found Bowe for at least one TD in the first three quarters, thus obviating the importance of that single third-down play.

Seriously, we can do this all night.

The Chiefs are indeed 3-0, and this is great. Did they achieve this because of Alex Smith or in spite of him?

Sac is a high-quality poster, and far too bright to be acting as obtuse as he's been in response to my posts. Here's the deal, very pointedly:

What Smith has been "accomplishing" the last three weeks isn't very impressive. He doesn't turn it over! He goes through progressions! Forward progress! He allows his defensive playmakers to dominate! Wait, what?

Anyway, my point is that the bar has been ridiculously lowered for what isn't considered mediocre QB play; Trent Green wipes his ****ing ass with Alex Smith's game film thus far this season.

To me, Andy Reid is making a marvelous case for coach of the year. This is where the real difference lies.

I disagree with both assertions.

No one is taking a dump on this team because of fantasy numbers. No one is really taking a dump on this team.

What people ARE doing is expressing concerns about Alex Smith's ultimate upside, concerns that if he is JUST a game manager (even a good one), it is going to make it damn hard to do anything of note in postseason play.

What people are saying is that Andy Reid should NOT be tied to Alex Smith if he continues to play at this lukewarm level, that can work in the regular season but is questionable after. That Reid SHOULD be open to upgrading or attempting to upgrade at the position.

Doesn't Reids history pretty much fully show that he is open to that? Do we really think Reid thinks this level of play is what he wants/expects to get from Smith?

In playing this brand of "mistake-free football," how many mistakes is Smith inadvertently making by being too conservative? Seriously, how can anyone watch the first 3 1/2 quarters of Thursday's game and say, "What issues?"

I think they were pretty transparent.*

*3-0.

Yes. And no. I was responding to the bolded below.

[QUOTE=duncan_idaho;10009602]"MORE" like what?

Win a Super Bowl and then you'll finally be happy and say he's okay, but I'd still like a Chiefs QB on my Madden team like Vick in his prime?

Sorry, but I don't get the individualized pessimism from some people around here just because he's not bombing for 500 yards per game.

Jim Harbaugh thought the same way and he's now 1-2 with a QB that was so ultra-dynamic and exciting, but, in reality, has thrown for 150 and 127 yards in consecutive weeks and four Ints to zero TDs. The same reason that the Redskins basically went all in for the next five years on trading up for Griffin and now they are one of the worst teams in the league with a historically bad defense that they won't be able to fix because they've pissed away all their first rounders.

A win is a win.

And in the end that's what matters.

Alex Smith, as a starter, over the last three seasons, is 22-5-1. He was in the NFC Championship game in 2011.

That's winning. I don't know what else you want from an objective, realistic standpoint.

Hasn't Pickz-burg given up yet? They have Todd, it's OK to quit...

Ok, gotcha.

Two second rounders.

That's not a lot.

What did the Redskins give up for Griffin?

What did the Falcons give up for Julio Jones?

Now, that's a lot.

Two second rounders is chump change for a starting QB in his prime that has, at minimum, five productive years left.

Yes. Because thus far, and im not making excuses but please try to understand this sarcastic ass response for what its worth.

I too see the Chiefs oline at that time, I see Tony Gonzalez as well at Alex's disposal.

Actually. This is what I have seen. The Chiefs absolute refusal to run the ball in the first half of Thursdays game. Far too many passes called.

29 passes, to 9 called runs in the first half. Against a defense that was routinely dropping 8 into coverage, and you have Jamaal Charles.

I saw a team that didn't have any of its top 3 tight ends that it hoped to have,, a street free agent and some dude I never heard of in McGrath. I see a slot receiver named McCluster who is short, and terrible, another receiver despite his terrific catch against Jax that has seen the field very little.

And more importantly than that. The right side of the Chiefs oline, especially Fisher, has been down right awful.

The bottom line is that there is a lot of parts that need to be shaped up before you can start to pin point the qb who just happens to be as clutch as can be so far this season, and doesn't turn the ball over at ALL........

None. When you are leading, or in a close game, and you have the chiefs defense, and special teams (Colquitt) you don't have to take chances. As long as every drive ends in a kick, (pat, fg, punt) that means that you are controlling the ball, not letting the other teams offense on the field, not giving them the short field, and usually leading, or close enough.

The offense has to get healthy, and it has to get better in all levels. Qb-receiver trust, blocking, receiving, rushing. Its 3 weeks into the season. I would be more worried as a fan if everything was PERFECT, and I felt I had nothing to work on.

Dude, we've seen a version of this movie before, with even better actors than the current cast.

They better not come back and make Todd look smart, or they'll be stuck with him!

Haley was a ****ing train wreck. Embarrassing that we had to argue about this point.

We will see. The beautiful thing is, and I believe Andy Reid said it. Hes not blind. he knows there is a lot of work to do.

now, being honest with you, I know very little of the Chiefs in the 90's other than Neil Smith, and DT58, but as a whole unit? You guys had better players than now?

Defensively, yes. Probably so.

Actually, individually I'm not sure, but as a unit, yeah.

[QUOTE=Saccopoo;10009703]I don't play Madden, either. Also has nothing to do with this.

Yes, a win is a win. And getting them in the regular season is much easier than getting them in the postseason.

I don't need to see Alex Smith win a Super Bowl before I get on the bandwagon. I need to see him step up his game and be more aggressive. That could happen next week, in two weeks, next month, etc.

Sorry, but I don't get the unabashed optimism from some around here. As DeezNutz said, we have seen this movie before. I'm not going to apologize for expecting "Game manager QB, great defense Part 6" to end like the first 5 films.

Different era and game. Defensively, the Chiefs put out some monster units in the 90s. I'll let someone else detail the specifics.

And I agree that Reid is a damn good coach. I'm just hopeful that the reports of his love for Smith are much, much over-blown. Otherwise, I'm going to be forced to hate them both.

If there is no improvement, then I would agree with you. But people to me are far too concerned that an offense that hasn't even played a complete half, much less game of football isn't all world, is a little strange to me. Id at least give it to week 8 if it were me.

That's all im saying. Its not like they don't know things have to be fixed.

[QUOTE=duncan_idaho;10009771]I just don't get how this is anything similar to what we've seen from Marty in the 90's.

It's not as if our QB is leaning on the run game being asked to not **** up.

We're throwing it on average like 38 times per game.

The argument that Matt Cassel was the reason the defense didn't play aggressively last year is complete and utter bull.

Aggressively? No. Give up and say "**** it"? Oh yes.

[QUOTE=duncan_idaho;10009771]It's not him stepping up his game. It's him playing into the system and working with the template given to him by Reid.

I see a guy working through progressions quickly and taking advantage of what the defense gives him on a given play.

I see a guy being able to quickly assess a deteriorating pocket and get positive yards out of it with his mobility.

I see a guy knowing where the first down marker is and making sure the ball is there.

I see a guy who is operating behind an offensive line that has been a penalty machine and sieve so far and still hasn't turned the ball over.

People are quick to use the "game manager" tag simply because a guy isn't throwing for 400 yards every time out and taking risks with the ball. Smith has been prolific in terms of his distribution of the ball, precise in his ball placement, efficient in his use of game clock and creative in his ability to scramble.

He's simply a different QB than, say, Drew Brees or Peyton Manning.

Like I said before, he's 22-5-1 with an NFC championship under his belt the past three seasons.

I think people are putting way too much stock into what he was prior to 2011 when he was forced to play under some of the worst coaches in the NFL in the past decade and six different offensive coordinators. And Reid is the best he'll have worked with in terms of his style of play melding with coaching philosophy.

One needs to remember that it's only game three in a completely new system playing behind an offensive line that has been downright horrible so far. And were still 3-0.

That's not optimism, that's reality. And I don't need Smith to be more aggressive versus calculating if he keeps putting up the wins. Aggressive can lose you games. We are already winning them.

Winning 22 out of 28 is certainly not a fluke in this league

Nice Avi Sac. Mechwarrior's a great game.

We seem to keep coming back to Matt Stafford, and that's not it. Surely you recognize that there's a happy medium of ideal QB play between "**** IT I'M GONNA THROW SO HARD AAAARRRGGGH" and "Don't hurt me I'm just a brokedick here I'll go down so you can touch me and get the sack."

Even you, Saccopoo, sworn to defend and electronically fellate any and all players from Utah, have to recognize that Alex Smith tends to lean more towards the latter on this spectrum. It would be nice if he would snap out of that a bit, and if he is incapable of doing so, we need to find a guy who will.

In any sport 22-5 is a record that one can call beast mode! Is that the winningest record for all QBs in the last 3 seasons? It's got to be pretty damn close if it's not.

Is that the 49ers locker room in that pic? Looks like shit.

Candlestick is a urine soaked hell hole.

Meaningless unless said QB is a Top Five Fantasy point generator

Ha.

The offense as it is...isn't something that is sustainable for success but I think it can and will get better over the course of a season. You see it all the time. The fact that we have had this success at the ground floor (new coach and new QB starting) is very encouraging.

There is also something to be said for getting shit done at important times. This not only goes for Alex but for our line. A team rising to the occasion and its level of play when we absolutely need it is great to see.

We deserve to be 3-0 but i agree with people that feel like the offense and Smith need to be better. However I see no reason that can't happen as the season progresses.

I don't know...

He's definitely not a Blaine Gabbert/Matt Cassel full-fetal position type of guy. He's very smart with the ball and will take a sack versus hang it up for the defense to go get, but he's also savvy enough and athletic enough that he will use his feet for positive yardage when line protection breaks down. And I've seen enough of him that he's shown the ability to take a hit to deliver the ball.

Personally, I think he's done a pretty decent job with moving the offense forward on the field considering the duress he's been under the first three games while the line continues to gel. Imagine guys like Huard or Cassel back there these first three games. Hell, we've seen that, and Smith is nowhere close to that.

And Reid has built this team with the short to mid mentality. Fullbacks, tight ends, possession routes, etc. This is an offense that is designed to be calculating, efficient and diverse in that area of the field. It's why he coveted Smith - because that's the type of QB he is and what he functions best in.

I think you are conceptualizing that it's Smith alone that is holding the offense back (if that's your thought process, even though we are putting up the yardage and winning the games despite the lack of functional tight ends, a legitimate possession receiver and a virtual sieve for an offensive line outside of Hudson and Schwartz), and I don't think that's the case at all. Quite the opposite in fact. However, it goes deeper than simply looking at a box score and noting the passing yards.

You and some others are advocating "finding a guy who won't hold the offense back," but yet the Chiefs are 3-0.

My point with Stafford is that the Lions with Stafford are pushing the ball down the field, racking up huge numbers in the process, and they still suck. They barely beat a historically bad defensive team in the Redskins today, and Stafford has the best receiver in the game to throw to as well as a first round tight end.

While it may fly in the face of what some people think an offense should be, especially in the post 2004 era of the NFL, Alex Smith wins ball games playing the way he does. 22-5-1 in his starts over the past three seasons. That's better than Manning and Brees and whoever else you want to compare him with. Only Tom Brady equals that mark over the same period.

And now he's coupled with Reid, who, when not saddled with occupational distractions that go beyond purely coaching the team and family problems, is one of the better offensive minded coaches and successful coaches over the past decade, and you and others want to get rid of Smith because you think he's holding the offense back? After Reid said that Smith is the guy he wanted for years? Jim Harbaugh apparently thought the same way you do, and what are the results of that?

Eh...I'm pretty sick of losing.

I'll take Smith, Reid and the wins, thank you very much.

As you should. Some people would bitch if you hung them with a new rope.
Yes, your O needs to get better. But 3-0? After last year? Smell the roses.

Tebow fanboy logic. "But he's winning" - despite everyone else carrying him.

Not saying Smith didn't contribute in some of those games. But there were many games where Alex did absolutely nothing and his D and special teams generated the production. Go look at the numbers. He has several 0 TD 150 yard games that he won. He gets way too much credit for those ugly wins.

You ****ing know it!

http://i.imgur.com/52Iy4.gif[

22-5-1 as a starter over the past three seasons ain't a fluke Sport.

And to make it a little more painfully obvious, Alex Smith is 3-0 in 2013 on a team who finished the season as the worst team in the NFL in 2012.

Kaepernick is 1-2 in 2013 coming off a Super Bowl appearance in 2012.

Suck it.

You know, it's possible to both 1) Enjoy the Chiefs' significant improvement as a team and 2) be skeptical/concerned/critical about the offense and its need to progress under Alex Smith (and its need to try to upgrade from Alex Smith if he doesn't improve and make more plays/guide a more successful offense).

This this this


I'm happy for all the success we get but I'm not going all homer when I know our offense needs to play better and that goes for Alex Smith and play calling. Dinking and dunking is not going win us a Championship.

I just don't agree with this. Dinking and dunking is the key to winning championships. It's not the 35 yard bomb that wins championships, it's teams unable to stop your short yardage attack. Saw this comment and totally agree

"Have any critics of Alex Smith, be they in the Niner fanbase or nationally, noted the fact that Joe Montana didn't push the ball vertically either? Niner fans who trashed and still trash Smith have a phenomenally selective memory when it comes to Montana's limitations as a QB. And if you think I'm exaggerating, check out Montana's stats from his greatest season (1989). A lower percentage of his completions that season traveled at least 20 yards than did that of Smith last year. Montana's leading receiver in '89? Fullback Tom Rathman. I'll bet my house and my third testicle that of Rathman's 73 grabs, not one was caught more than 20 yards downfield. I'll bet my one of my wife's testicles that not a single one traveled beyond 10 yards from the line of scrimmage. Yet, no one within the fanbase bitched or moaned about the fact that No. 16 dinked and dunked his way to 4 Super Bowls and the distinction of the greatest QB of his generation. While Smith wasn't Montana, he was evolving at the time of his concussion into a breathing embodiment of the West Coast quarterback that Bill Walsh and his system embraced. And the fans here—with nothing else to complain about Smith's game—rejected him, using the most prominent feature of the West Coast offense to further their criticism and abuse. Just shameful."

Lots of reasons for optimism. Not only is Smith perfect for Coac's offense, Jamaal Charles is as well. His full skills are finally being utilized. This is all without tight ends at full health,

Not just Montana, but when was the last time Tom Brady won it all? When his offense was more dink and dunk than anything. You rarely saw him go beyond 20 yards before 2007.

Yes...but how often did Jerry Rice take those five yard slants to the house? It would be nice if we had a receiver like that. But finding another "greatest receiver of all time" might be difficult.

Not accurate.

Brady threw 20+ yards an average of 63 times/year in the 5 seasons before 2007, with a high of 76 times.

Since 2007, excluding his Bernard Pollard-shortened 2008, he threw 20+ yards an average of 60 times/year, with a high of 69 times. He threw 20+ yards 68 times in 2012.

Brady has remained pretty steady in terms of stretching the field, with a slight DECREASE as he has aged.

And his rate of "stretch" throws is nearly twice that of the remade Alex Smith, who threw 20+ yards 36 times in 2011 and was on pace to do it 34 times a year ago.

So far this season, Smith had gone 20+ yards just 3 times through week 2 (week 3 is not incorporated into split stats yet, anywhere I can find). That's pretty much on pace with his recent averages.

According to play-by-play charts, Alex Smith threw deep 2 times in the game against Philly, giving him a total of 5 20+ yard throws in 3 games.

That puts him on pace to throw about 27 20+ yard passes this season.

I just found it encouraging that Montana's #1 target was Rathman. Haivng a reliable outlet is half the game. And I seriously love the JC/Smith combo.

JC is just freaking amazing. I really think he's the most complete back in football. Amazing runner, amazing catcher.

The Chiefs have to get their OL pass pro fixed up before there's any chance of Smith and Reid feeling good about pitching up the deep ones. They may never really throw deep ones, but they damn sure are not going to if the OL continues as is.

QFT. Waiting for the long bomb is a good way to end up in the hospital at this point. It's going to take time for the line to gel.

:shake:

Hmm, well in 2001, I don't recall him going downfield much at all. Maybe later on, but I'm just trying to point out that as long as you're deadly accurate, you don't HAVE to push it downfield.

The line is fine.

For the most part Fish is getting face raped.

One thought is to RUN THE ****ING BALL MORE and allow him to PA deep...

ROFL rep.

Yeah, if we can get that sustained pocket up to a 10 second median, we'll be unleashing that dragon all day long. :rolleyes:

lol. true enough.

I feel like a lot of these discussions ultimately come down to this. We all wish the offense played a certain way but we have the personnel we have. So you have to build around that and not what you want in your head.

I think we've good deep threat capability but it's not a weapon you can use until the Oline issues are addressed. I think this is mainly time under the new system and I'm fully confident it will improve. Looking forward to what this offense can do then. We really have nice pieces

I couldn't find Pass Play distance data for 2001, but I only checked a few sources.

He evolved into a better quarterback after that season, but based on the fact that the amount of time he has thrown deep in every other season in his career is pretty static, I'd bet it was pretty similar in 2001, too.

Who did he play with? Honestly, I never though much of the 9ers receivers. Looked pretty mediocre in the SB last year.

Lets be real here. Smith could have all the time in the world. He's not going deep. Why is this so hard for you to understand? I have seen him have all day in the pocket and not even look downfield. Not his game.

Brady?

The early parts of his career were spent throwing to Troy Brown, Deion Branch, David Givens, Reche Caldwell, etc. He wasn't throwing to an elite WR corps by any means.

And he threw deep, on average, even more with that underwhelming cast than he did with Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Gronk, etc. of recent years.

NOPE. If you say anything critical about Alex Smith, you hate winning, the Chiefs, and their 3-0 start!!!!!

Shouldn't you be trying to understand how your QB is losing games for you?

CK7 after 3 games on a Super Bowl team:

TDS 3 INT 4 YDS 689 RTG 72.5 RECORD 1 - 2

AS11 after 3 games on a team that had the first over-all pick (2-14):

TDS 4 INT 0 YDS 669 RTG 92.1 RECORD 3 - 0

And?

22-5-1 over the past three seasons.

Only Tom Brady equals that over the same time period.

Who gives a flying **** if he shovel passes it all day long as long as they win.

Oh, that's right...the fantasy football/Madden pessimists around here who think that there is only one way to win and that's with a QB who consistently bombs it downfield care about it.

And douchebag Kaepernick apologists. How was that watching Kaep, with his rocket arm, throw for approximately 130 yards each game the past two games and lose both of them?

"Just keep matriculatin' the ball down the field, boys."
- Hank Stram

Personally, I think it's more about willingness to challenge the defense PERIOD rather than solely challenge the defense downfield.

Smith is hesitant to make throws into tight windows. You see flashes of it, usually when his back is to the wall, but he doesn't do it consistently. That results in excellent ball protection but also stalls the offense out frequently. (Something that tracks with his time in San Francisco the past two years).

We haven't seen that type of timid play succeed in the playoffs very often. The few times it has recently, the defense is extremely elite and in the best outcomes (Dilfer and Johnson), historically good.

The book isn't shut there. Reid has talked a lot about getting Alex Smith to be more aggressive with the ball. He wants him to improve in that area.

Don't take it personally SNR, it's just that some of the incessant whining going on about upgrading the QB position after three games into the 2013 season (games which have been won, by the way), is more than a little stupid all things considered.

The offensive line has been crap in both run blocking and pass protection.

The tight end situation, which is featured prominently in Reid's offense, is atrocious.

Our receiving corps outside of Bowe is miserable. (And defenses know this as Bowe has been double covered almost constantly since the opening whistle of game one.)

And, Andy Reid's west coast option offense is short to mid-field based. It's an offense that is based on ball control, field position, high percentage passing.

And yet, despite all of this, the Chiefs are still 3-0, with a lot of that to do with Smiths ability to direct and sustain timely drives.

3-0.

And yet I've read in this thread multiple times that we'll never be really successful in the playoffs unless we've got a guy like Matt Stafford.

Well, how about just getting to the ****ing playoffs? Do the negativists have any conceptualization about how ****ing bad the Chiefs have been with regard to even getting into the playoffs the past 20 years? And now you want to actually replace the QB who has only played three games with the team in a new system with the deficiencies listed above and still has the team at 3-0?!?!

Yeah, it makes one look reactionary and objectively ignorant to criticize him and call for his replacement already, especially because of . Hell, look at the San Fran fans who were happy as all hell to jettison Smith for Kaepernick. How's that working out for them so far in 2013?

Like I've said numerous times before, if you want to watch and root for a QB and team who love pushing it down the field, giving you that vertical game many so apparently yearn for, then the Detroit Lions would love you as a fan. Stafford to Johnson absolutely provides what the Smith antagonists desire.

The 3-0! shit is just like the answer was always Pioli!

You don't come out a winner a lot challenging a defense on their terms.

22 (21%) of Smith's passes this year are on 2nd and 8+ yards
12 (11%) of Smith's passes this year are on 3rd and 9+ yards

11 times a game you are passing when the defense can fish for an INT.

Smith is completing
63% on 1st down passes
68% on 2nd down passes

So it's not really his fault they are in bad spots.

LOL ROFL

People will always be critical of Alex. That's his lot in the league.

Why would a QB want to force the ball into tight windows if he doesn't have to?

Jeez. Yeah, lets talk about that challenging the defense. Colin Kaepernick has 0 tds and 4 ints the past two weeks, and the team has scored 10 points total.

Shrugs. If Chiefs fans would really just come to an understanding of what is around Alex Smith right now, and realize that at his best hes a FRINGE top 12 qb, but take in to account everything so far, the oline, the play calling, some bad decisions by alex due mostly to learning his receivers and the such, or chemistry, to this last game of injuries, and it took 3 quarters for andy reid to adjust his offense to attack what the Eagles were giving them.

Its just learning. It will get better. Its cool though, that Kaepernick gets all of these excuses on a team he was on last year that he helped get to the super bowl, yet, Alex Smith should have the Chiefs in all world form after three weeks despite their number one overall pick looking terrible, and alex smith having no tight ends last week. Pretty funny stuff.

Good grief. ROFL

Chiefs fans

Got a laugh out of me too.

This is a good thread really, because Alex Smith pretty much = Trent Green. Except that I guess Green had a much rougher first year here.

Bashing/backing

Some QBs HAVE to challenge defenses because they are asked to win games. You can't dink and dunk your way to wins when you are down. Alex Smith over the last little while has had the luxury of having leads or small deficits. Other QBs don't have the luxury of moving the ball up the field with dumpoffs. When you have a great D, you can get by with taking what the defense gives you. Smith has made a living off of that. He won't be able to do that against better teams, though.

There's a difference between forcing the ball into tight windows and throwing the ball into tight windows because you can.

We don't know which one Alex Smith is. He hasn't done anything like it yet in Kansas City

Alex has been doing the same thing for three years with success. If teams could stop him, they would have done so already.