I've never seen sorter fired up.

Then you've clearly never seen him interact with BlackBob

You guys remember the 2003 Packers vs Chiefs game? Ouch that hurt us alot.

Smith doesn't stretch the field. That allows the defense to load up short.
SMith doesn't take chances. That means passing up on quick throws because he doesn't want to take a chance
Smith's pocket awareness is so-so. He will often scramble out instead of sliding in the pocket
Smith too often misses the hot read

Sure, Smith's speed gives him more wiggle room to dance out of trouble. But there are definitely ways he can make his OL better. Again, the biggest improvement at the end of 2013 in the OL wasn't talent. It was Smith being the most aggressive we've seen him for much of his career.

Which hurt more, the barn burner in 2003 or us ending your undefeated streak in 2011?

The defense slipping up vs harder teams changed how play-calling went.

The sacks racking up is by and large on the O-Line. They sucked in preseason it was obvious. The offense had to be compressed or it was likely to implode and get Smith killed in the process.

http://i.imgur.com/vZDSbkg.jpg

The 2011 hurt more.

Further buried the Chiefs franchise to the excitement of the fanbase.

I honestly think we can beat GB at GB. We match up well with them

11 days to prepare, hopefully coming off a big divisional win at Arrowhead against the cheating Broncos and a 2-0 start. They've got a trash defense.

I'm expecting ol' Jaymaal to run roughshod all over them. I'm also expecting to be fisted by Rodgers, although he loves to hold onto the ball so Houston should be able to ring his bell a few times.

We really need to win that season opener. I definitely do not want to be 0-1 with games against Denver, GB and Cincy ahead.

Last year?

Offseason!

Apparently I've missed it

Jfc. The playcalling didn't change. Alex Smith did. At the end of 2013, he was opening up the passing game, wasn't afraid to throw into tight spots. The rest of his chiefs career he was the king of check downs.

And your damn excuses for the ol... Yes, they sucked, but it doesn't explain how Alex Smith imploded at the end of 2014. It was the same ol that protected him during the middle of the season. Most notably, smith went from effective on third downs to downright terrible. I've never seen a bigger apologist for a player than you with Alex Smith.

For the love of R'hllor, please stop posting shit that is either made up or untrue. It is extremely irritating that I have to go through point by point but c'est la vie.

I didn't claim that the Chiefs' OL was "bottom 5" because guess what dumbass, I don't have an arbitrary grading system made up by people who don't have any idea how protections, progressions, hots, and sight adjusts work. Those are all things that a QB could be responsible for in correctly utilizing during/before a play and the failure to do so could result in unfairly blamed OL play.

I have never said that the OL was not bad at their job (generally speaking) last season. I have said that your .img was not a valid way of measuring their ineffective play because it doesn't take into account variables/factors that can affect their performance. It's ****ing disingenuous and incredibly ignorant to simply apply blame without knowledge, which is exactly what you do in an attempt to prop up your false god Alex Smith.

You still couldn't provide an answer as to who's conducting the "grading" and how he/she arrives at his/her conclusion. I don't like to rip on Direckshun but for ****'s sake, your beloved Pro Football Focus offered him a job conducting your "grading". A guy that literally didn't understand what the **** a "power" run was and thought that the guard ****ed up by pulling. Tell me, when you have people like that "grading" plays, do you think it might not be truly accurate?

There are numerous ways that an offensive line ****up could be attributed to the QB. These vary by team (as some teams give certain responsibilities to the Center/QB/other OL players).

For example, (and once again, this is an example) let's use 74/75 protection for the Patriots. It's a 5-man protection out of empty (which the Chiefs do use).

http://i.imgur.com/1TEMubG.png

Notice here how it states "The QB may make a RITA/LINDA call to adjust the protection for the Mike/Sam/SSF or Will. It also states that there is a sight adjust (weak) and hot (strong) built in. If the QB fails to make the correct adjustment and the protection is inadequately blocked, your infallible PFF would blame the OL and absolve all of the blame that he should receive.

http://i.imgur.com/W3osbRs.png

http://i.imgur.com/YBPhz4u.png

Notice how there are other calls, such as "Tally". In some systems, the QB is responsible for making that call. In others, he isn't. See how this could be an issue in attempting to assert where blame should lie?

http://i.imgur.com/u8gWVLm.png

http://i.imgur.com/RXOLIn3.png
Finally, we get to the sight adjusts and hots. Now, it's the responsibility of the WRs to understand what they're seeing pre-snap to know if they are going to alter their called route and run either the SA/Hot. Those guys can and do **** up. Which in turn could result in the QB holding the ball and getting sacked, making the wrong progression, or simply throwing the ball to a space that isn't occupied by the receiver. Guess what you ****ing ignoramus, PFF doesn't take any of that into account. I wonder who'll likely be blamed for that ****up?

In some systems however, the QB is also responsible for making sure that no matter what, those ****ing idiots know that they are indeed going to be running their SA/Hot. Hint, sometimes you'll hear a QB during an actual ****ing game yell "Alert". Crazy, I know.

Your PFF has no idea what the built in hots/SAs are, what the protection rules/adjustments/responsibilities are, and simply assigns blame because "Hey, that guy didn't block that guy". The fact you parrot their "grades" like they mean a ****ing thing is hilarious.

There is no but....

The OL sucked, and considering the remarkably high number of 3 step drops, that just makes their level of suck all the more wretched.

PFF has them at 8th worst in pass pro.. and Outsiders has them at 5th worst.

We can sit here and dicker about specific rank. Either way, it comes back to the acceptance that they were a pile of shit, bottom tier OL.

Now can good/great QBs overcome this and excel anyway? I'd say some can, if they have excellent WRs to throw to. Did we? shit no.

So how many good/great QBs overcome a trash OL and trash WRs?

This has only been answered with 1 name... 1 name the haters have legitimately come up with.. Russell Wilson.

Now RW is a pretty good QB, but aside from his extra ability to evade and scramble, he basically is a more aggressive Alex Smith. Both guys can run, but RW has more Vick-like evasion. They are in the same ballpark as QBs though. People can deny it all they want, but both are high on the 2nd tier of QBs right now.

Bows down to Sorter.

If the first go-round was Tyson/Spinks, that was Dalton vs. the town of Jasper in Roadhouse, complete with throat-rip finisher.

Alex doesn't make a ****ing defense better. In fact, he makes it worse by putting all the pressure on them to keep the leads down and make the clutch plays to set him up. These 49er fans are clueless except for Mav.

I believe the phrase goes "No duh! Where'd ya park the squad car Dick Tracy?!"

Ahhh!!!! HHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

God, Sorter is awesome.

Alex can make the defense better... When he does his job. Extend drives to keep them off the field, drain clock to keep them fresh, force opposing offenses to use long fields.

Last year he did that well in the middle of the season. But over half of the games he's played as a chief, he hasn't and the defense had to bail our offense out.

Is this a serious comment. Aaron Rodgers won a Super Bowl with pretty much his entire offense missing. Peyton Mannings final years with the Colts he played with an atrocious ol... He also played mvp football in Denver two years ago with pretty much his entire ol injured. Brees several years ago did it with a banged up ol and wr injuries that forced terrence copper to be their #2. Brady made the afcg with Gaffney and reche Caldwell as his #1 and #2. Big Ben has won many games with a trash ol.

Again, it does not excuse bad play. But stop with the bullshit that because the supporting cast didn't do their job that absolves Smith from all blame. There are plenty of things he can do to elevate the play of his teammates that he does very inconsistently.

They have totally taken my enjoyment of watching the game of football away from me. I wish he'd get caught raping a midget tree sloth so we could move on. The excuse crap is unbelievable. This team is now without excuses, if Alex even fails a little its 100% on him.

These SF trolls are the worst.

They really are..

This conversation should have ended after Sorter's post but here the resident Alex Smith ball sniffer comes in with another clueless post.

I've named four or five instances where a QB excelled with shitty WR and OL and he ignores every one of them.

"Well those guys are really good. Name a shittier QB so it will fit my narrative!"

2003 by far. We had you guys beat and gave up a 3 TD lead to lose in overtime. That one hurt for a week.

I am willing to put a sign bet down on the game. If we beat Seattle then we will be confident going into the game against you guys. If we lose against Seattle then we will be demoralized and you guys have a shot to beat us.

So we're back to sticking our fingers in our ears and going LALALALALALALALALA OFFENSIVE LINE LALAALALAALALALA

"But Alex Smith..."

LALALALLA OFFENSIVE LINE

"Andy Reid..."

OFFENSIVE LINE! LALALALA! I CAN'T HEEEEAAAR YOOOUUUU

Make that a four TD lead in the playoffs and you'll know how we felt January of 2014.

I kinda like KC though so I got over it. 2011 hurt too. What do you think about this year's game?

Last year, the record for teams following the week after they play Seattle was pretty poor, Likely due to the emotional letdown and the physically of the game itself.

Hell, KC lost to an 0-10 team after beating Seattle last year.

.. and you still can't read, it seems. Rodgers had consistent scheme and excellent WRs on his side. Manning has excellent weapons also. Big Ben has had some very good weapons at his disposal as well. Most if not all the QBs you mention are regarded as elite QBs.. being compared to Alex, who no one claims is elite.

As for Brees, he holds the same record as Alex as of late.. 10-12. Why is Brees not overcoming his team deficiencies? Where are the SB rings for these guys lately?

You guys can think what you want of the "49ers" fans here.. you can slurp up whatever random crap guys like Sorter throw out there, but you still can not reasonably debate what it is that I am stating.

You can't seem to grasp the simple conclusion that good/great QBs can overcome a deficient OL or WR group alone... but not combined... and yet you expect Alex to? That's just going full potato.

So your saying it might be better that we lose to Seattle?

PFF is hilarious. Some schmuck from Ireland (?) grading the NFL. ROFL

Sweet Christmas, we've been over this so many times!

At points in time you could argue that Andrew Luck, Philip Rivers, Russell Wilson, Tom Brady, Cam Newton, Ryan Tannehill and Carson Palmer had subpar OL and WRs and still excelled.

You keep making this argument when I've already dealt with it and given examples of QBs who've done it.

Ah, memories....

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/TA99lGmVzFE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The reidcuses crows will be in full swing by mid season.

Please stop the AS11 bullshit. JFC it's just awful.

You must have given some really vague and inaccurate examples then.

The list of QBs to excel with shit OL AND shit WRs all during consecutive seasons was responded to with 1 somewhat accurate name... Russell Wilson... and even he was putting up Alex-like numbers.

So the list is: 0 and counting...

The dude could dub over almost every Gabriel Byrne movie and no one would notice. That's how Irish he is.

Given that you responded to it with a "thank you", it's more a case of you deliberately ignoring that discussion. Here's the page it's on:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showt...php?p=11592583

Here's my first post on the subject:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...&postcount=655

Your response post:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...&postcount=657

My answer to your request for more info:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...&postcount=658

And, after that, it was silence on your end.

Ah, yes.. now I remember. The thank you was genuine.. and was in response to you at least trying to answer the question. As for the names.. I don't see many.. and will dig into the legitimacy when I make more time to. Appreciate the refresh.

Alice gave my dog AIDS. Aside from being a bottom half QB, he's also a bottom half when it comes to dog ****ing.

Sick bastard.

Of course you don't see many names. You were asking for a very small subset of players/teams. By only equating success with a SB win, you're starting with a max of 49 situations, right from the start. Then, coupling that with the specific weaknesses mentioned:

Bad OL
Bad WR

you naturally will get an even smaller number.

There's no point in arguing with him. I just listed several names, as I've done before, and he conveniently ignores them.

That's not what I was doing. I was asking for QBs that excelled (or played at a high level) while having both shit at OL and WR.

Give me a year where Ben truly excelled, and didn't have more than shit for OL and WRs.

Same for the others. That is the level of specificity I was truly hoping for.

Ben didn't really excel until 2007.. where really, the only thing he could have been said to do very well in was throwing 32 TD passes. However, he had a young and very good Santonio Holmes at that time... plus Hines Ward.. and throw in Heath Miller. The 4 yrs after 2007, he was solid but not putting up grand numbers. They drafted Mike Wallace for him in 2000, and he was great in the early years. Antonio Brown is a top 5 WR in the league... no?

Would these receivers not remove him from the list?

Exactly how are you quantifying that an offensive line or wide receiver group is "shit"?

His personal opinion, which keeps flip-flopping unsurprisingly.

He continues to ask for a QB with bottom 5 WRs and then cites TEs to help fit his narrative.

It doesn't matter. He'll just continue to claim that Dwayne Bowe was the absolute worst WR in the league and incapable of doing anything good on the field.

Grown men changing team allegiances is as creepy as Pat fans posting on a Chief board. It makes ZERO sense.

Granted, these things can be tough to nail down as exact. But if everyone is honest and not forcing agendas, it's not that difficult to look and assess who had top, mid, and bottom tier WR and OL groups.

Guys, I know this is uncommon for CP, but this really is meant as a civil discussion into whether QBs (and which ones) have played at a high level with shit for OL and WR.

I can't think of many... maybe not any.. that really do. Even if we were to force a few names that kind of work? That's a start, albeit a short list that may just strengthen my suspicion of how rare it can be. So if people want to go into it, great. If it's easier and convenient to just not, and leave it at some trifling insult? Hey, go with that. :shrug:

The TE added for Ben wasn't even necessary.. just threw it in to point out another good option he had.

As long as you are cool throwing in JC also. Hate to not be consistant.

Copied and pasted, so I never again have to type it.

You can read it, wipe your ass with it... whatever ya like. If you're the decent type though, maybe you can just understand and deal with it better now.

signed,

creepy.

Andrew Luck, Philip Rivers, Russell Wilson, Tom Brady, Carson Palmer, Cam Newton, and Ryan Tannehill.

"The best defense is a good offense."

LOL, nah.. not leaving room for you to use your evasive maneuvers.

Keep it just OL and WR then. Again, I just adding that TE for point of additional support for Ben, but it did nothing to really alter anything about what we are digging for.

Ben still had good WR weapons.. so I asked dude if he should really be included.

Pretty sure all of these are invalid. This is as specific as you are capable of getting? Throw some names out with exact yrs, WR groups, OL, something!

copy/paste... because I am not typing this out again either..

2014:

Moncrief - 444 yards and 3 TDs
Nicks - 405 yards and 4 TDs
Wayne - 779 yards and 2 TDs

And a top 10 WR named T.Y. Hilton is missing from this because? He's pretty outstanding. You should check him out. :thumb:

TY Hilton is not a top 10 WR.

That what I'm talking about. You'll try and rationalize your beliefs by saying just about anything.

TY Hilton a top 10 WR? Reggie Wayne's 53 year old corpse? Nicks? Really?

Hilton ROFL

These guys are often top 10 WRs because you have top notch QBs throwing to them. Many of them are not even close to top 10 behind a bad QB. Different from a guy like AJ Green who can make a bad QB look good.

He doesn't comprehend that QBs can actually make WRs look better than what they are

QBs make receivers not the other way around. Look at the guys getting propped up.in Pile High.

Philip Rivers, Carson Palmer, Ryan Tannehill, and Cam Newton could all arguable fit the bill in 2014.

Russell Wilson fit the bill at certain points through the 2014 season as well.

Tom Brady could fit it at several different points in his career.

Andrew Luck could fit the bill in 2012 and 2013, arguably 2014 as well although their offensive line seemed to get better last season.

Something else that these 9ers trolls are completely oblivious to.

Crabtree, Bowe, Manningham, Moss, Avery, Brandon Lloyd? All just a bunch of lazy ****s with Alex throwing them the ball.

Convenient :hmmm:

You say I can't read. But gloss over that I said Rodgers won a Super Bowl with his entire WR corps dinged up. He's usually had a bad OL. Manning has had many years with really dinged up WRs and OL. His final years in Indy, his supporting cast was atrocious and his OL was one of the worst in the league. You keep commenting about how great these OLs and WRs are... did you ever stop to think that these WRs are racking up huge seasons because they're playing with an elite QB? How good was Santonio outside of Pittsburgh? Has Wallace looked anything close to a true #1? Did you see how well Denver's dinged up OL played against KC 2 years ago? Because Peyton specifically designed an offense to get rid of the ball lightning fast.

I agree that it's unfair to compare him to the elites. But you asked what QB and the elite / almost elites have been around long enough to do well no matter what the supporting cast.

Umm... Maybe because he's 36? He did win a playoff game just 2 years ago.

Alex Smith had an absolute shit OL and WR group at the end of 2013. Even worse in the Colts playoff game. As I've said over and over, he problem is in Alex's head. He's choosing to manage games instead of attacking. And when he manages games, he makes his OL and WRs worse.

So why then is a QB like Brees getting a 1st rd WR in Cooks? Why does Rodgers get a 2nd rd WR in Adams and Jordy? Why pay Randall Cobb 10 mil per? Why is Brady getting 2nd rd WR Dobson? Matty Ice needs his team to move up for Julio Jones in the top 10? Why does Denver need to bring in Emmanuel Sanders? Why retain Demaryius Thomas at such high cost? Can Romo not live without Dez, for them to pay him that much? Why pay Antonio Brown an average of 8 mil per?

The questions go on. I mean, if these QBs can make any receiver look good... how can they justify these resources?

... and name 15 WRs better than Hilton, please.

Absolutely. However, 9-7 is so much better than 2-14. Since we get ****ed and have an OT #1 anyways.

Because these teams have to win by scoring a bazillion points. The Chiefs are just trying to score 20.

Why do all of those guys succeed? How come none of them Baldwin?

"TY Hilton is a top 10 receiver"

"No he isn't"

"Name 15 receivers better than Hilton then"

Because all of those QBs sucked ass until those those WRs came on board, right?

Goalpost moving for days

I'll address some things:

- Yes, Mike Wallace was a damn beast for a while there. A true homerun threat that put together some nice seasons.. but started to derail mentally.

- dinged up? yeah, that's the NFL, and all teams deal with dinged up.

- Brees isn't a real mobile QB anyway... what's him being 36 really matter that much? Why does he get the excuse? He couldn't elevate the team around him period.

- Why is Peyton so special that he keeps needing his "special/sneaky/pick" schemes to follow him around? Shouldn't great QBs be able to function at a high level no matter what?

just some thoughts..

You can't see that I just moved the goalpost closer to your advantage? lol

"Alex Smith makes your defense better"
 

You are not very smart.