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suzzer99 02-09-2022 11:11 AM
You think the Royals could keep a Bryce Harper, Mike Trout, Max Scherzer or Clayton Kershaw? Show me some examples of small market teams keeping generational talents. Closest I got is Christian Yelich and Joey Votto - not quite generational talents imo. And those are exceptions, not the norm.

Meanwhile the Yankees never have to worry they'll lose Judge, Dodgers never have to worry about losing Bellinger and Kershaw. Yeah those teams might lose a Betts or a Seager sometimes. But again, those are exceptions for big market teams, not the norm. And when the Sox lose Betts, they sure as hell aren't losing him to the Royals.

Big market teams can afford to risk giving a huge contract to homegrown stars or free agent guys and them not living up to it. Small market teams have much less margin for error.

ChiefsCountry 02-09-2022 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 (Post 16137299)
You think the Royals could keep a Bryce Harper, Mike Trout, Max Scherzer or Clayton Kershaw? Show me some examples of small market teams keeping generational talents. Closest I got is Christian Yelich and Joey Votto - not quite generational talents imo. And those are exceptions, not the norm.

Meanwhile the Yankees never have to worry they'll lose Judge, Dodgers never have to worry about losing Bellinger and Kershaw. Yeah those teams might lose a Betts or a Seager sometimes. But again, those are exceptions for big market teams, not the norm. And when the Sox lose Betts, they sure as hell aren't losing him to the Royals.

Big market teams can afford to risk giving a huge contract to homegrown stars or free agent guys and them not living up to it. Small market teams have much less margin for error.
Yes, if the Royals had a generational talent they could keep them.

suzzer99 02-09-2022 11:26 AM
So why did we lose Beltran, Damon, Hos, Moose, Cain? All just mismanagement? You think we could have competed on Greinke even if he wanted to stay? Do you think we could have kept Salvy if his contract was up in 2017?

Mike Sweeney and Alex Gordon seem to be the talent level that teams like the Royals can keep for life in today's world. Ring of Honor guys, but not sniffing the HOF.

chiefzilla1501 02-09-2022 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 (Post 16137299)
You think the Royals could keep a Bryce Harper, Mike Trout, Max Scherzer or Clayton Kershaw? Show me some examples of small market teams keeping generational talents. Closest I got is Christian Yelich and Joey Votto - not quite generational talents imo. And those are exceptions, not the norm.

Meanwhile the Yankees never have to worry they'll lose Judge, Dodgers never have to worry about losing Bellinger and Kershaw. Yeah those teams might lose a Betts or a Seager sometimes. But again, those are exceptions for big market teams, not the norm. And when the Sox lose Betts, they sure as hell aren't losing him to the Royals.

Big market teams can afford to risk giving a huge contract to homegrown stars or free agent guys and them not living up to it. Small market teams have much less margin for error.
They also die by the sword by getting saddled with bad contracts. It made the Yankees irrelevant for many years because they were stuck paying for guys like ellsbury, teixiera, arod. There are some things you can tweak for sure. I think the bigger issue still continues to be cheapskate owners and the mlb needlessly screwing with the game to generate more offense so they can get ratings.

ChiefsCountry 02-09-2022 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 (Post 16137328)
So why did we lose Beltran, Damon, Hos, Moose, Cain? All just mismanagement? You think we could have competed on Greinke even if he wanted to stay? Do you think we could have kept Salvy if his contract was up in 2017?

Mike Sweeney and Alex Gordon seem to be the talent level that teams like the Royals can keep for life in today's world. Ring of Honor guys, but not sniffing the HOF.
Beltran and Damon were a different time. Has no relevance today.

We did keep Moose. He had no market.

Cain was 32 years old who was injury prone with his legs. It was a very smart business decision not to offer him a contract. He had a couple good seasons with the Brewers and is now declining big time. But his contract he got with the Brewers the Royals could have easily paid. It wasn't about the money it was about the production for the buck.

Hosmer the Royals offered the same money as the Padres. Padres contract was front loaded, the Royals back loaded deal. Money was the same, just got paid up front. And the Royals look like they have avoided a major disaster how Hosmer has played with the Padres.

Royals paid Gordon. Royals locked both Salvy and Ventura up long term. The money is there for the right player.

suzzer99 02-09-2022 05:38 PM
Why would he stay when he knew we couldn't also sign Cain and Moose? Everyone know 2018 was going to be a rebuild. The Dodgers never have to do that.

No one I followed for years before 2017 seriously thought we were going to keep Hos. It was just assumed him and everyone else leaving was a done deal. If we can't even keep a Hosmer, we're never keeping a true generational talent like Bryce Harper.

And yeah he sucks now. But I still loved rooting for him and Cain and Moose (Esky could go) and I would have stayed interested longer if we could have kept those guys and added more to try to stay competitive, instead of dumping them and rebuilding (tanking). Maybe Hos wouldn't suck as bad in KC where he was the top dog and loved his teammates.

Ocotillo 02-09-2022 08:27 PM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Update: The next meeting between MLB and the MLBPA is set for Saturday.</p>&mdash; Evan Drellich (@EvanDrellich) <a href="https://twitter.com/EvanDrellich/status/1491597301877510146?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 10, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Ocotillo 02-09-2022 08:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasputin (Post 16136931)
I don't even know who won the 2021 world series.


I can tell you who won the 2015 World Series THE ROYALS :Royals:


Since they got rid of Hosmer my interest in the sport has withered. Still love my Royals oh yeah now I remember other reason i quit watching is Joe Buck . It was intolerable to listen to Joe Buck. So if there is a lockout MLB can go Buck themselves.
Last year's Braves vs. Astros World Series wasn't that compelling. All the games were longer than four hours and the team with the advantage each night is the one with the fresher bullpen. If you're not a fan of either team, you typically don't tune into the World Series until it gets to a Game 6 or Game 7 these days.

Ocotillo 02-09-2022 08:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 16136957)
Yeah, I think a lot of the competitive balance stuff is overblown. One of the unique things about baseball is that teams get punished for bad long term deals by getting saddled with the contract. Like Bobby Bonilla, but usually it’s more like pujols (paying a guy way too much at the end of his career) or jacoby elsbury (paying a ton for a guy who doesn’t even play). It’s not like the 2000s when the Yankees and Red Sox were unstoppable. Frankly, the nfl and nba have a way bigger parity issue with dynasties dominating for decades. The variety of World Series teams and winners has been very good.

The bigger problem is a salary floor. The reason I’m more sympathetic with players is that owners should want a team because they’re hungry to win. Not an investment opportunity, and not winning just enough to make money. Keeping owners accountable for not spending enough is the bigger deal to me. People hated George Steinbrenner but the dude flat out wanted to win and spared no expense to do it.

The game is more competitive balanced than people give it credit for. The bigger crime is when dipshits like Manfred mess with the game to juice up ratings. Like juicing the ball a few years ago. And this season messing up pitchers arms because they stupidly decided to change the rules mid year about doctoring baseballs. Or selig and the steroid era. More offense tends to favor high payroll teams because a few great hitters can make up for mediocre pitching. Without offense, teams are rewarded for depth and bullpens and coaching, which tends to favor well run teams.
Joe Sheehan thinks baseball should just allow all the teams to spend as much as they want like the 1980s, no penalties. I think that's extreme but like you mention many big market teams have been burned by bad, longterm deals.

It doesn't matter if it's the Yankees or the Dodgers, a bad contract sucking up $30 million of the payroll is an opportunity cost to replace that stiff with a better ballplayer. And the Rays have shown they can turn a $40 million payroll into a 100-win roster. They maximize every cent, every roster space.

The one argument that I think holds water when it comes to competitive balance is the feeling from small-market fans that the Yankees have a .520/.530 floor no matter how incompetent their management is. The Yankees currently have 29 straight seasons and there's a feeling that they never get punished for subpar moves because they can piece together a winning ballclub by just simply spending on safe veterans. They don't have to take on the risk of a small-market club.

Ocotillo 02-09-2022 09:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 (Post 16137194)
Thanks this is some good info I didn't have. FWIW I don't blame the players any more than the owners. My position is simple - the game sucks right now. I don't care whose fault it is. I do get annoyed with baseball twitter, which seems to almost universally take the players side on every position. It feels like a bunch of reporters and pundits worrying about losing access and/or being bullied by Boras.

Knowing that today's Royals could never keep a generational talent like George Brett past his rookie deal, and Salvy might be the Royals' last shot at a homegrown HOFer who stays with the team (and only because of a terrible fluke contract) make the game a lot less fun for me. When Damon and Beltran left is when the new reality sunk home for a lot of KC fans. The '75-85 Royals were so fun - largely because they kept the core group of Brett, McRae, Wilson, White, and Otis together. That could never happen now.

That stuff matters to me as a fan. I went to Brett's last game. I flew back to KC for Cain/Hos/Esky/Moose's last game. I will go to Salvy's last game. I don't want to root for a bunch of Kevin McReynolds/Jeff King retreads. Knowing the 2014/2015 core was always going to be gone was bittersweet. The wins were still amazing, but there was always this sad pall hanging over the team. Imagine knowing the Chiefs were going to lose Mahomes in a couple years. It wouldn't be the same and would be a much shittier fan experience.

And tanking. The players say it's greedy owners, the owners say it's necessary. The only thing not in doubt is that it sucks for the fans. Maybe both sides need a real scare that they could actually kill the golden goose, before it dawns on them that w/o fans there is no money to fight over.
Baseball Twitter is so gross. Baseball writers are easily the worst segment of the sports media universe.

I feel you about the feeling of the Royals being unable to keep a generational talent. Even though I'm not a fan of these teams, I got bummed when the Indians lost Francisco Lindor, the Nationals lost Bryce Harper, the Diamondbacks lost Paul Goldschmidt, the Rockies traded Nolan Arenado, the Marlins lost Giancarlo Stanton. I root for every market team to keep their homegrown star.

It's going to be sad when the Athletics trade Matt Chapman and Matt Olson this spring.

Ocotillo 02-09-2022 09:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 (Post 16137299)
You think the Royals could keep a Bryce Harper, Mike Trout, Max Scherzer or Clayton Kershaw? Show me some examples of small market teams keeping generational talents. Closest I got is Christian Yelich and Joey Votto - not quite generational talents imo. And those are exceptions, not the norm.
The Padres with Fernando Tatis Jr.

suzzer99 02-09-2022 09:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocotillo (Post 16138304)
The Padres with Fernando Tatis Jr.
The Padres seem to be doing what Ewing Kauffman did in the last years of his life - go all out to buy a title. It's also what the players expect all small market owners to do. But I'm dubious the owners can all be shamed into spending like the Padres or Kauffman trying to get one last title before he dies.

Ocotillo 02-09-2022 09:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 (Post 16138337)
The Padres seem to be doing what Ewing Kauffman did in the last years of his life - go all out to buy a title. It's also what the players expect all small market owners to do. But I'm dubious the owners can all be shamed into spending like the Padres or Kauffman trying to get one last title before he dies.
The Padres did build a strong farm system in the first place and then were aggressive when the time was ripe. But San Diego is a unique situation now because the Padres are the only show in town with the Chargers gone. That might have more to do with their spending than anything.

Ocotillo 02-09-2022 09:50 PM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">MLB is planning to make a new proposal following the owners meeting which ends tomorrow. It is expected to involve core economic issues, and hope remains that it could trigger something to get a deal done on time for the regular season to begin as scheduled, or close.</p>&mdash; Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) <a href="https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/1491597512507023363?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 10, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Ocotillo 02-10-2022 11:13 AM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Robert Manfred announced that MLB has agreed to a draft lottery and a universal DH <a href="https://t.co/6hDbrXognb">pic.twitter.com/6hDbrXognb</a></p>&mdash; Talkin’ Baseball (@TalkinBaseball_) <a href="https://twitter.com/TalkinBaseball_/status/1491813364124823554?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 10, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Ocotillo 02-10-2022 11:28 AM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Robert Manfred is optimistic that the regular season will begin on time <a href="https://t.co/lMotc8y6Wq">pic.twitter.com/lMotc8y6Wq</a></p>&mdash; Talkin’ Baseball (@TalkinBaseball_) <a href="https://twitter.com/TalkinBaseball_/status/1491809073351778308?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 10, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

kstater 02-10-2022 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocotillo (Post 16138905)
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Robert Manfred is optimistic that the regular season will begin on time <a href="https://t.co/lMotc8y6Wq">pic.twitter.com/lMotc8y6Wq</a></p>— Talkin’ Baseball (@TalkinBaseball_) <a href="https://twitter.com/TalkinBaseball_/status/1491809073351778308?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 10, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
He also said that owning a team brings less return than the stock market....

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

ChiefsCountry 02-10-2022 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kstater (Post 16138974)
He also said that owning a team brings less return than the stock market....

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk
Year to year revenue that is probably true but not when you sell the team.

ChiefsCountry 02-10-2022 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocotillo (Post 16138868)
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Robert Manfred announced that MLB has agreed to a draft lottery and a universal DH <a href="https://t.co/6hDbrXognb">pic.twitter.com/6hDbrXognb</a></p>&mdash; Talkin’ Baseball (@TalkinBaseball_) <a href="https://twitter.com/TalkinBaseball_/status/1491813364124823554?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 10, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
The BFIB are upset about not having double switches and strategy.

Titty Meat 02-10-2022 06:23 PM
Baseball fans turning into soccer fans lol

If MLB was smart… hear me out.

Figure it all out on Saturday. And just before the Super Bowl Kickoff on Sunday, announce live that an agreement has been reached.

Boom. Baseball won the Super Bowl.

eDave 02-10-2022 06:32 PM
Innings Festival is 2 weeks away. They better figure something out. I'm tired of shows getting cancelled.

WhawhaWhat 02-10-2022 11:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titty Meat (Post 16139385)
Baseball fans turning into soccer fans lol

If MLB was smart… hear me out.

Figure it all out on Saturday. And just before the Super Bowl Kickoff on Sunday, announce live that an agreement has been reached.

Boom. Baseball won the Super Bowl.
100 million people will be watching the Super Bowl which means that nobody will know that baseball announced anything.

MarkDavis'Haircut 02-11-2022 08:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocotillo (Post 16138303)
Baseball Twitter is so gross. Baseball writers are easily the worst segment of the sports media universe.

I feel you about the feeling of the Royals being unable to keep a generational talent. Even though I'm not a fan of these teams, I got bummed when the Indians lost Francisco Lindor, the Nationals lost Bryce Harper, the Diamondbacks lost Paul Goldschmidt, the Rockies traded Nolan Arenado, the Marlins lost Giancarlo Stanton. I root for every market team to keep their homegrown star.

It's going to be sad when the Athletics trade Matt Chapman and Matt Olson this spring.
Baseball writers are the most self-righteous and cloying of the lot.

MarkDavis'Haircut 02-11-2022 08:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocotillo (Post 16138868)
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Robert Manfred announced that MLB has agreed to a draft lottery and a universal DH <a href="https://t.co/6hDbrXognb">pic.twitter.com/6hDbrXognb</a></p>&mdash; Talkin’ Baseball (@TalkinBaseball_) <a href="https://twitter.com/TalkinBaseball_/status/1491813364124823554?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 10, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Draft lottery and universal DH.

Baseball keeps killing my interest in the sport.

Jerm 02-11-2022 08:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titty Meat (Post 16139385)
Baseball fans turning into soccer fans lol

If MLB was smart… hear me out.

Figure it all out on Saturday. And just before the Super Bowl Kickoff on Sunday, announce live that an agreement has been reached.

Boom. Baseball won the Super Bowl.
Hmmmmm…..

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If MLB was smart… hear me out. <br><br>Figure it all out on Saturday. And just before the Super Bowl Kickoff on Sunday, announce live that an agreement has been reached. <br><br>Boom. Baseball won the Super Bowl.</p>&mdash; Ben Verlander (@BenVerlander) <a href="https://twitter.com/BenVerlander/status/1491821092477935632?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 10, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

dlphg9 02-11-2022 08:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carr4MVP (Post 16139796)
Draft lottery and universal DH.

Baseball keeps killing my interest in the sport.
So you're against universal DH?

I guess it makes sense since you are a Raiders fan, so you're reeruned.

Titty Meat 02-11-2022 08:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerm (Post 16139798)
Hmmmmm…..

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If MLB was smart… hear me out. <br><br>Figure it all out on Saturday. And just before the Super Bowl Kickoff on Sunday, announce live that an agreement has been reached. <br><br>Boom. Baseball won the Super Bowl.</p>&mdash; Ben Verlander (@BenVerlander) <a href="https://twitter.com/BenVerlander/status/1491821092477935632?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 10, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Yes I was quoting his tweet dipshit. I myself would never be dumb enough to claim a dying sport such as baseball would be able to challenge the super bowl. They can't even beat out pre season games

MarkDavis'Haircut 02-11-2022 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlphg9 (Post 16139801)
So you're against universal DH?

I guess it makes sense since you are a Raiders fan, so you're reeruned.
Grew with the NL. I prefer baseball where every player fields and hits in a game.

Not interested in some old fat guy extending his career.

Jerm 02-11-2022 08:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titty Meat (Post 16139804)
Yes I was quoting his tweet dipshit. I myself would never be dumb enough to claim a dying sport such as baseball would be able to challenge the super bowl. They can't even beat out pre season games
Maybe you should include that then dipshit….

Nice try though.

Titty Meat 02-11-2022 08:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerm (Post 16139812)
Maybe you should include that then dipshit….

Nice try though.
It's not my fault you're too stupid to see that it was copied and pasted not embeded tard

Jerm 02-11-2022 09:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titty Meat (Post 16139816)
It's not my fault you're too stupid to see that it was copied and pasted not embeded tard
*Embedded

Probably should learn how to spell if you wanna try and talk shit there genius….:clap:

Titty Meat 02-11-2022 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerm (Post 16139889)
*Embedded

Probably should learn how to spell if you wanna try and talk shit there genius….:clap:
Bet you aren't so tough without a keyboard

jdubya 02-11-2022 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carr4MVP (Post 16139806)
Grew with the NL. I prefer baseball where every player fields and hits in a game.

Not interested in some old fat guy extending his career.
Always had great respect for a pitcher with the ability of helping himself out at the plate with a productive at bat. Of course I miss the days where starting pitchers went deep into games going for a "complete" game. Now we just have pitchers by committee where you just want your starter to get 5 innings and then hand the ball over to a committee of middle relievers and then closer. Game is a changing

suzzer99 02-11-2022 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocotillo (Post 16138303)
Baseball Twitter is so gross. Baseball writers are easily the worst segment of the sports media universe.
Their minions on twitter are the absolute worst. When I said that Salvy might be the last chance at a home grown HOFer who stays with the Royals, a few of them replied along the lines of "Lol Salvy won't sniff the HOF".

Those guys know how to take the fun out of everything. Also they're wrong. If Rany thinks Salvy has a real chance that's good enough for me. One more season like last year and I bet he's in. Or 3-5 more pretty good seasons.

I think the twitter slappies would rather just skip the postseason and whoever has the highest WAR at the end of the season wins. They get so bent out of shape when a low payroll team has any postseason success. Joe Sheehan hated seeing the Royals win in 14/15 (although part of that was because we didn't have enough high-strikeout, high-walk homer guys - which was deemed the right way to win). Also see Andrew Miller saying the Rays don't win the "right way". And then all the whining about the wildcard game being "Not fair!". They never whined when it was the As and Royals.

I'd have more respect for them if they just came out and said how they really feel - that the Dodgers, Sox and Yanks deserve to win more, and teams like the Royals should be happy they even get to play with the big boys.

Jerm 02-11-2022 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 (Post 16140278)
Their minions on twitter are the absolute worst. When I said that Salvy might be the last chance at a home grown HOFer who stays with the Royals, a few of them replied along the lines of "Lol Salvy won't sniff the HOF".

Those guys know how to take the fun out of everything. Also they're wrong. If Rany thinks Salvy has a real chance that's good enough for me. One more season like last year and I bet he's in. Or 3-5 more pretty good seasons.

I think the twitter slappies would rather just skip the postseason and who ever has the highest WAR at the end of the season wins. They get so bent out of shape when a low payroll team has any postseason success. And then all the whining about the wildcard game being "Not fair!". They never whined when it was the As and Royals.

I'd have more respect for them if they just came out and said how they really feel - that the Dodgers, Sox and Yanks deserve to win more, and teams like the Royals should be happy they even get to play with the big boys.
Was Nightengale one of them?

kcxiv 02-11-2022 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carr4MVP (Post 16139806)
Grew with the NL. I prefer baseball where every player fields and hits in a game.

Not interested in some old fat guy extending his career.
I rather watch some old fat guy extending his career trying to hit a baseball outside of a hand full of pitchers who can actually hit. Most pitchers go up to bat and not even try at all. That shit is not fun in anyway shape or form. There is nothing thats good for baseball about that.

I'd agree if pitchers actually went up there and attempted to hit. This is best for the game in this day and age.

Ocotillo 02-12-2022 01:54 PM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">-Offer included a raise in the minimum for 2+ players, from $700k to $725K. So now would be $615/650/725. OR League offered a straight minimum for first year players of $630k and old system after that.<br>-Proposal also included a 5 mil bump in the pre arb pool, from 10 to 15 mil.</p>&mdash; Jesse Rogers (@JesseRogersESPN) <a href="https://twitter.com/JesseRogersESPN/status/1492577919624957965?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 12, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Ocotillo 02-12-2022 01:55 PM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Service time: League also offered ability to receive 2 draft picks instead of one if a star prospect is kept up and finishes in top 3 in awards in multiple years. So Cubs would have gotten a pick after Bryant wins ROY in 2015 then one after MVP in 2016. If up all year</p>&mdash; Jesse Rogers (@JesseRogersESPN) <a href="https://twitter.com/JesseRogersESPN/status/1492579933947899904?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 12, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Ocotillo 02-12-2022 01:55 PM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I&#39;ve covered many baseball labor tiffs. Here&#39;s my hopefully informed take:<br><br>MLB&#39;s proposal included only modest moves on min. salary, luxury tax &amp; service time.<br><br>It shouldn&#39;t be taken at face value. It&#39;s a signal of where they&#39;re willing to move.<br><br>I doubt it&#39;s their final offer!</p>&mdash; Jayson Stark (@jaysonst) <a href="https://twitter.com/jaysonst/status/1492583018866909186?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 12, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Titty Meat 02-12-2022 01:56 PM
LMAO

Ocotillo 02-12-2022 01:59 PM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Some smaller points in latest proposal: Limit option to minors to 5 in a given season. <br><br>Also, Re-instituting draft and follow. Means can draft a player then send him to Juco for a year then sign him.<br><br>But none of this matters unless the big stuff gets done</p>&mdash; Jesse Rogers (@JesseRogersESPN) <a href="https://twitter.com/JesseRogersESPN/status/1492581038173872135?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 12, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Ocotillo 02-12-2022 02:00 PM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">MLB today presented the MLBPA with a calendar: i.e., to start regular season on time, a deal is needed by X day. Not known what specific days/deadlines MLB suggested. Unknown yet if MLBPA agrees with the calendar as MLB sees it. Union has to review it all. TBD.</p>&mdash; Evan Drellich (@EvanDrellich) <a href="https://twitter.com/EvanDrellich/status/1492589317377736706?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 12, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Jerm 02-12-2022 02:05 PM
So the “most important meeting to happen to date” concluded in 1 hour with a bullshit offer….of course lol.

They’re really just ready to off what little relevance the sport has left eh….

Strongside 02-12-2022 04:33 PM
The current state of baseball makes me sad. There are things they could do to increase popularity of the game, but they seem to be determined to kill it outright. NASCAR is now more progressive than MLB in terms of trying to grow and amplify the sport. It’s insane.

Rasputin 02-13-2022 01:22 AM
They should have locked out forever after the 2015 season and Royals be forever last team to win the World Series .

chiefzilla1501 02-13-2022 04:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcxiv (Post 16140301)
I rather watch some old fat guy extending his career trying to hit a baseball outside of a hand full of pitchers who can actually hit. Most pitchers go up to bat and not even try at all. That shit is not fun in anyway shape or form. There is nothing thats good for baseball about that.

I'd agree if pitchers actually went up there and attempted to hit. This is best for the game in this day and age.
Yup, Nothing fun about pitching around the bottom of the lineup. Pitching has become too good these days for hitting pitchers to stand a chance. Plus it’ll be exciting to see guys like Pujols extend their careers.

Ocotillo 02-13-2022 12:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerm (Post 16141281)
So the “most important meeting to happen to date” concluded in 1 hour with a bullshit offer….of course lol.

They’re really just ready to off what little relevance the sport has left eh….
I'm starting to feel like the owners are making serious offers.

They've agreed to a lot of things the players want like a draft lottery, draft pick compensation to avoid service time manipulation, even the pre-arbitration bonus pool.

The players are asking for the moon on some issues.

Jim Bowden said this morning that in the current pre-arb bonus pool of $15 million that the owners have proposed, Corbin Burnes goes from $618K last year to $2.6 million this year, Vladimir Guerrero goes up to over $2 million and Jonathan India would have gone from $570K to $1.3 million. Those are significant, unprecedented salary hikes for pre-arb players and the players are countering with $100 million for that bonus pool. Even if both parties eventually settled at $30 million, that's a huge win for the MLBPA.

Ocotillo 02-13-2022 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 (Post 16140278)
Their minions on twitter are the absolute worst. When I said that Salvy might be the last chance at a home grown HOFer who stays with the Royals, a few of them replied along the lines of "Lol Salvy won't sniff the HOF".

Those guys know how to take the fun out of everything. Also they're wrong. If Rany thinks Salvy has a real chance that's good enough for me. One more season like last year and I bet he's in. Or 3-5 more pretty good seasons.

I think the twitter slappies would rather just skip the postseason and whoever has the highest WAR at the end of the season wins. They get so bent out of shape when a low payroll team has any postseason success. Joe Sheehan hated seeing the Royals win in 14/15 (although part of that was because we didn't have enough high-strikeout, high-walk homer guys - which was deemed the right way to win). Also see Andrew Miller saying the Rays don't win the "right way". And then all the whining about the wildcard game being "Not fair!". They never whined when it was the As and Royals.

I'd have more respect for them if they just came out and said how they really feel - that the Dodgers, Sox and Yanks deserve to win more, and teams like the Royals should be happy they even get to play with the big boys.
That's because Salvador Perez is not a walk machine but Twitter minions can't appreciate that great ballplayers come in all shapes and sizes.

I'm not a Cardinals fan, but I see the same crap with them arguing that Yadier Molina is not a Hall of Famer because his career WAR or JAWS isn't to the standard. I think everyone will admit that catcher is involved in every pitch on the diamond and there's a non-quantitive element to the position. I know sabemetricians don't like to hear this but if you watch the Cardinals with and without Molina, there's a discernible difference with how the pitching staff performs and the team performs.

Ocotillo 02-14-2022 08:04 PM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Currently, teams can roster 180 domestic minor league players. The league is seeking the ability for the commissioner’s office to reduce it to “below 150&quot; but could add to the number, too. Right now, sources said, two teams have fewer than 150 while five teams have more than 180.</p>&mdash; Jeff Passan (@JeffPassan) <a href="https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1493400274182017026?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 15, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

BigRedChief 02-14-2022 08:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocotillo (Post 16142218)
I'm starting to feel like the owners are making serious offers.

They've agreed to a lot of things the players want like a draft lottery, draft pick compensation to avoid service time manipulation, even the pre-arbitration bonus pool.

The players are asking for the moon on some issues.

Jim Bowden said this morning that in the current pre-arb bonus pool of $15 million that the owners have proposed, Corbin Burnes goes from $618K last year to $2.6 million this year, Vladimir Guerrero goes up to over $2 million and Jonathan India would have gone from $570K to $1.3 million. Those are significant, unprecedented salary hikes for pre-arb players and the players are countering with $100 million for that bonus pool. Even if both parties eventually settled at $30 million, that's a huge win for the MLBPA.
The status quo is great for the players. They add anything, it’s a great deal for them.

Ocotillo 02-16-2022 11:05 AM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">MLB already has a soft cap with the CBT, and the players fear MLB&#39;s latest proposal would create a much more rigid cap. The issue they see? MLB revenues are compounding at a much faster rate than the tax threshold. <a href="https://t.co/q7EJls49tm">https://t.co/q7EJls49tm</a> <a href="https://t.co/MZ3ZbxPQFO">pic.twitter.com/MZ3ZbxPQFO</a></p>&mdash; Travis Sawchik (@Travis_Sawchik) <a href="https://twitter.com/Travis_Sawchik/status/1493993423333961736?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 16, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

MarkDavis'Haircut 02-16-2022 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocotillo (Post 16146046)
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Currently, teams can roster 180 domestic minor league players. The league is seeking the ability for the commissioner’s office to reduce it to “below 150&quot; but could add to the number, too. Right now, sources said, two teams have fewer than 150 while five teams have more than 180.</p>&mdash; Jeff Passan (@JeffPassan) <a href="https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1493400274182017026?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 15, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
People are whining about this but most of those players are filler. Why should MLB teams pay for them?

BigRedChief 02-16-2022 07:56 PM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Juan Soto rejected a 13-year, $350M contract from the Washington Nationals before the lockout, per <a href="https://twitter.com/Enrique_Rojas1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Enrique_Rojas1</a> &amp; <a href="https://twitter.com/JeffPassan?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@JeffPassan</a> <a href="https://t.co/t8AIsOiO0I">pic.twitter.com/t8AIsOiO0I</a></p>&mdash; FOX Sports: MLB (@MLBONFOX) <a href="https://twitter.com/MLBONFOX/status/1494023108948234244?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 16, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

jd1020 02-16-2022 08:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 16149446)
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Juan Soto rejected a 13-year, $350M contract from the Washington Nationals before the lockout, per <a href="https://twitter.com/Enrique_Rojas1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Enrique_Rojas1</a> &amp; <a href="https://twitter.com/JeffPassan?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@JeffPassan</a> <a href="https://t.co/t8AIsOiO0I">pic.twitter.com/t8AIsOiO0I</a></p>&mdash; FOX Sports: MLB (@MLBONFOX) <a href="https://twitter.com/MLBONFOX/status/1494023108948234244?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 16, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Man is looking like Barry Bonds at the plate. He's going to get Trout money, maybe more, and its Washington so probably half of that offer was deferred to through 2050.

BigRedChief 02-19-2022 07:48 AM
MLB announces the delay in the start of spring training camp until at least March 5th.

Watched an episode of MLB tonight, seems to be the Bonus pool and luxury tax threshold are the sticky points.

Both sides are going to meet every day next week.

dlphg9 02-19-2022 08:03 AM
Owners are sticking it to the players. The luxury tax thing is one of the dumbest ****ing things ever.

Chief Roundup 02-19-2022 08:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlphg9 (Post 16153377)
Owners are sticking it to the players. The luxury tax thing is one of the dumbest ****ing things ever.
:facepalm:
No, it is a good thing short of a hard salary cap similar to what is used in the NFL.

PHOG 02-19-2022 08:22 AM
A hard salary cap is way overdue in this league, or at least, more substantial than the luxury tax. That is if they want a more even playing field, which I'm not too sure they do. JMO

BigRedChief 02-19-2022 08:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlphg9 (Post 16153377)
Owners are sticking it to the players. The luxury tax thing is one of the dumbest ****ing things ever.
The players are the greedy ones here. They got it so good right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Roundup (Post 16153384)
:facepalm:
No, it is a good thing short of a hard salary cap similar to what is used in the NFL.
If the players would take a salary cap, the sport would grow with a more even financially playing field. Look at the NFL for crissakes. Green Bay and KC are competing for championships and the NY teams are not.

BigRedChief 02-19-2022 08:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHOG (Post 16153390)
A hard salary cap is way overdue in this league, or at least, more substantial than the luxury tax. That is if they want a more even playing field, which I'm not too sure they do. JMO
That isn't happening without losing at least a whole season. The players got it good now. Take the deal and play ball.

Pepe Silvia 02-19-2022 01:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHOG (Post 16153390)
A hard salary cap is way overdue in this league, or at least, more substantial than the luxury tax. That is if they want a more even playing field, which I'm not too sure they do. JMO
They don’t.

Titty Meat 02-19-2022 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 16153395)
That isn't happening without losing at least a whole season. The players got it good now. Take the deal and play ball.
They could miss a whole year and most the country wouldn't care. Think about that for a second

suzzer99 02-20-2022 12:17 PM
The fans need to go on strike until the game is more competitive. Oh wait they already are.

ChiefsCountry 02-20-2022 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 (Post 16154700)
The fans need to go on strike until the game is more competitive. Oh wait they already are.
8 different champions in the last 8 years

raybec 4 02-20-2022 02:25 PM
This is a bad look for the players. I don't think they're getting the right information out there. The owners have done a good job of letting their offers and some counters leak to the media. It makes the players look like they're just not negotiating in good faith. I'm sure it's all in the spin but they really should get in front of some of this stuff.

BigRedChief 02-20-2022 04:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titty Meat (Post 16154014)
They could miss a whole year and most the country wouldn't care. Think about that for a second
Besides fans and their own team, baseball is a very niche sport now. Fans use to watch the World Series. Now, unless it’s really compelling, not so much.

I grew up playing baseball. Managed my sons competitive baseball team. My experience with baseball for decades is way different than todays generation. So yeah, it’s heyday has probably passed it bye.

Shiver Me Timbers 02-20-2022 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 16154875)
Besides fans and their own team, baseball is a very niche sport now. Fans use to watch the World Series. Now, unless it’s really compelling, not so much.

I grew up panting baseball. Managed my sons competitive baseball team. My experience with baseball is way different than todays generation. So yeah, it’s heyday has probably passed it bye.
Short attention span nation. Baseball is a "time" investment.

I really do not think there is a way to fix it. Too boring for the younger generations.

WhawhaWhat 02-20-2022 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiver Me Timbers (Post 16154892)
Short attention span nation. Baseball is a "time" investment.

I really do not think there is a way to fix it. Too boring for the younger generations.
I like the ideas of a pitch clock and banning hitters from leaving the box. I hate the David Ortiz-like dog and pony shows of adjusting all of their equipment after every pitch.

BigRedChief 02-20-2022 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry (Post 16154724)
8 different champions in the last 8 years
fools gold. Of course spending the most money doesn’t guarantee anything. But……

No one can dispute that the Dodgers having a $200 million payroll over the $75 million of other teams gives the Dodgers a competitive advantage.

That allows the big market teams to overpay for players and then they flop, they just move on. Get another player. The smaller payroll teams they are crippled for years. It’s not fair. It’s not a level playing field.

The small market teams develop a star, they are gone in 5.5 years. Big market teams just give them market rate money for 10 years. They fall apart after 5 years, no big deal. Write it off and move on to the next player. Again, that’s a huge competitive advantage.

ChiefsCountry 02-20-2022 09:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 16154960)
fools gold. Of course spending the most money doesn’t guarantee anything. But……

No one can dispute that the Dodgers having a $200 million payroll over the $75 million of other teams gives the Dodgers a competitive advantage.

That allows the big market teams to overpay for players and then they flop, they just move on. Get another player. The smaller payroll teams they are crippled for years. It’s not fair. It’s not a level playing field.

The small market teams develop a star, they are gone in 5.5 years. Big market teams just give them market rate money for 10 years. They fall apart after 5 years, no big deal. Write it off and move on to the next player. Again, that’s a huge competitive advantage.
Dodgers have the best GM and best minor league system. That's why they keep their success up more than spending.

SPchief 02-20-2022 09:24 PM
Oddly enough, BRC made a post about himself and his past.

jd1020 02-20-2022 09:34 PM
As if the NFL and NBA has more competitive balance than MLB because of a salary cap.

Do you even wonder why the MLBPA doesn't pursue a salary cap? Because it will do nothing but give the owners an ironclad excuse to cut spending. Something every single ****ing one of them can afford to do more of.

suzzer99 02-20-2022 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry (Post 16155319)
Dodgers have the best GM and best minor league system. That's why they keep their success up more than spending.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry (Post 16154724)
8 different champions in the last 8 years
Scott Boras thanks you for your service.

suzzer99 02-20-2022 10:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd1020 (Post 16155346)
As if the NFL and NBA has more competitive balance than MLB because of a salary cap.

Do you even wonder why the MLBPA doesn't pursue a salary cap? Because it will do nothing but give the owners an ironclad excuse to cut spending. Something every single ****ing one of them can afford to do more of.
Football isn't competitive because apparently at any given time only like 10 humans in the world can play QB well enough to win a Superbowl w/o a generational defense.

But you really have to be in denial to look at the NFL and MLB and say MLB is just as competitive. The Chiefs could never keep Mahomes if it was run like MLB. He'd be gone after his rookie deal. Or if we did shell out, we couldn't afford to pay Kelce and Hill when their contracts come up. It would be Mahomes and a bunch of scrubs.

It doesn't matter that a bunch of different teams have won the WS recently. MLB games are very high variance. The playoffs are a crapshoot. But the Dodgers, Yankees and Sox are still favorites to make the playoffs every year, while teams like the Royals have to tank for a "window".

That the Dodgers only have one WS win is well within normal variance. They could just as easily have 3 or 4 WS wins, and then finally maybe everyone would admit Baseball's competitive balance sucks.

jd1020 02-20-2022 10:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 (Post 16155438)
It doesn't matter that a bunch of different teams have won the WS recently. MLB games are very high variance. The playoffs are a crapshoot. But the Dodgers, Yankees and Sox are still favorites to make the playoffs every year, while teams like the Royals have to tank for a "window".
Good teams favored to make the playoffs. Breaking stuff.

suzzer99 02-20-2022 10:34 PM
$200M+ payroll creates good teams. Breaking stuff.

jd1020 02-20-2022 10:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 (Post 16155449)
$200M+ payroll creates good teams. Breaking stuff.
3 teams. WOOOOOOOW!

Teams like the Browns must be really unlucky with everything being equal and all in the NFL. The NBA really put a stop to these super teams being formed with the addition of a salary cap. It's really incredible how the MLBPA doesn't just pick up on the parity shown in other sports.

Rasputin 02-20-2022 11:35 PM
I might miss watching the few Royal games a year I watch but if it's to keep from seeing or hearing Joe Buck then it's probably for the best. He literally ruins baseball and football too with Troy Achman.

Ocotillo 02-21-2022 12:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd1020 (Post 16155346)
As if the NFL and NBA has more competitive balance than MLB because of a salary cap.

Do you even wonder why the MLBPA doesn't pursue a salary cap? Because it will do nothing but give the owners an ironclad excuse to cut spending. Something every single ****ing one of them can afford to do more of.
The owners already use the competitive balance tax as a reason not to spend. Last year the Phillies, Yankees, Mets, Red Sox and Astros had their payrolls in the $205-209.99 million range, just short of the $210 million competitive balance tax. Only the Dodgers and the Padres went over.

Look at Carlos Correa. In a non-competitive balance tax world, he'd probably have 4-5 teams legitimately interested in him. But with the CBT, it kind of gets narrowed down to 1 or 2 teams. Nobody even knows where he might end up. What a disgrace. He was the best defensive SS in baseball last year.

Before the outlier spending spree of November 2021, the last two non-COVID free agent markets were just so stagnant. Unlike the NFL where the big names sign within hours, it's been stale to follow MLB free agency and wait for Bryce Harper to sign in late February. Teams that should be putting bids on Harper, didn't because of the CBT.

suzzer99 02-21-2022 12:30 AM
Would either side be ok with the current CBT and a hard floor of $150M? Or maybe $120M is more realistic, I dunno.


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