Because I'd rather Mahomes learn and improve naturally instead of being forced to change due to a player having a glaring weakness that might get him killed.

Yep, thank goodness too- Mahomes only threw for 50 TD's and over 5,000 yards drifting around.

So... where is that line for you? What constitutes a "top" LT contract?

What’s the glaring weakness though? He gets beat by speed rushers deeper? I mean I’m pretty sure if a speed rusher had to beat trent Williams deeper than his set he’d struggle too.

Mitch Schwartz talked about it a lot and how they have certain points and if the qb drops deeper than that, it’s on him.

If you guys remember in 2020, Mahomes did the same thing and got beat up A lot for it

Mahomes and Kelce are future HOFers and the Best at their position, but still don't make top money.

Why should Brown expect to be paid like the Best when he is clearly not?

If he won't take a "team friendly" deal to play with Mahomes and win championships- you tag him, then trade him next year for draft picks.

Darrisaw was the 23rd pick. Why would we need a Mahomes like trade up to move up to 23 no matter where we were trading from?

Fisher didn't have nowhere near the problems with speed rushers that Orlando does. That's why it wasn't such a big deal when Mahomes drifted back. It was a bad habit, but not something you were TOO worried about. Now if he drifts back, it is a big problem.

Power rushers would drive Fisher straight back into Mahomes. Brown doesn’t give up ground to those guys as easily and his job against speed is to push them wide and allow Pat to step up.

You talk as if Fisher didn’t struggle to pass protect when he got beat many times…just in different ways.

He’s ****ing clueless.

Here's the other part - left tackle is a premium position in the league. QB, LT, pass rusher....those are the positions you're going to have to pay. If we don't pony up for Brown (and I'm not necessarily advocating for that just yet), the alternative is to drop a first rounder on a left tackle once every four years or so. Is that a plan we'd be good with just to avoid being strapped to a player that isn't a sure-fire HoF'er but can be solid and fill his position?

He’s the only LT of the last 5 years to be a quality and be a first rd pick drafted not in the top 15.

One time. In 5 years.

That’s called an outlier

As mentioned before, the structure of it matters more than the price tag.

I wouldn't think twice, I'd just pay Brown Jr.

I don't really understand those who don't want to pay him. Where are we going to pour those extra dollars we would save? The truth of the matter is that tagging him and then letting him walk only creates a giant hole on the left side of the Oline when Pat is in his prime. ****, people bitched about paying Fisher. And OK lets say we tag him then let him walk we are going to be praying for a LT to fall in the draft? Thats way risky. And what would Veach have to do, pay someone who doesn't have the upside that brown does on the free market.

I mean Cam Robinson just signed a 3 year 54 Million dollar extension with Jacksonville. Thats the shit we would be looking for if we are stupid with Brown.

What I love about Brown is that he is driven to be the best, talks about wanting to be in the HOF, and winning Super Bowls. We can afford to pay the guy for the next 3-4 seasons with no problem. Just do it.

Well if the center of the OL was suspect, if Fisher was liable to being bull rushed, and if Mahomes was great throwing off his back foot while drifting backwards, why was it really a "bad habit"?

I get that there are elite speed rushers out there that most LT's struggle with. But a speed rusher that gets a pretty clean bend around the edge is usually going to show up more quickly and be more likely to cause a fumble or an injury than a bull rush that pushes a tackle into the QB's lap, no?

And it is annoying to pay elite money for a LT who is more elite at run blocking than pass blocking.

I get the nervousness about trying to find a replacement. But it would seem like if KC is willing to open up the checkbook and make someone the highest paid LT (even if only briefly) they ought to be able to lure an LT to KC that has elite pass blocking skills.

On the other hand, if Brown is willing to settle for less than elite money, yea great sign him.

And I guess I would be more nervous about locking Brown up for a long time. If the headline figure is large, but KC has an out, that is also a different story.

Don't pay him. For the love of god please don't pay him.

So no matter what we're going to overpay. Either in what we give Orlando or what we give up to trade up. I'd rather overpay trade up for a tackle whose strength is pass blocking and will be here for the next 5 years on a rookie contract than overpay for Orlando for the next 5 years.

Yeah, having to go into the offsrason next year with glaring holes at LT and DE sounds like a shit idea when we've got at the very least an above average LT already on the roster.

Ding! End of discussion.

Above average? Brown is below average and ranked that way of the 32. Past 15 is below average he's like 23rd. He's not angiid LT. He sucks.

LMAO You do realize that ranking you're quoting is of both LTs and RTs, right?

Actually reading through the list, there's at least 10 or so that aren't LTs, so Brown Jr still projects as a borderline top 10 LT according to PFF even with his struggles at times during the season.

This.

In a world where an actual shitty tackle like Cam Robinson gets 3/54, an above-average T like Brown is going to be in the low 20s. All about the stucture.

He's not an elite guy, and he is susceptible to the speed rush. But a good speed rush is pretty literally the ONLY way to beat him. You're not going through him. Power move attempts are going to get you clowned.

Like I said yesterday, it's all about the structure. If the sticker price is 6/145, but the actual price is something like 4/90 (with some dead money in year 5 or 6), I have no concerns or problems with the deal.

The line for me with Orlando is at the 18 per that Jake Matthews and Kolton Miller were recently extended for.

Top contract values are at about 23 per. I'd consider anything over 20 a bad deal.

I just hate paying top end money for a good player not a great one.

That’s what the Faiders did with Derek Carr.

It’s a bad position to be in where you need a great player at that position but none are available so you are stuck with a good player but paying them like a great player.


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He threw for 5,000 and 50 because our defense was epically bad. It was his first full year starting so teams didn’t have film on his drifting. Even random people on the internet highlighted how Mahomes drifting back became a liability. You can be sure if they could see it DCs, Reid, and Mahomes could see it as well. That played more into why he has reduced that part of his game than Brown struggling with speed rushers.

In addition to Darrisaw at 23, Bolles was drafted at 20, Wynn was drafted at 23, Jackson at 18, and Penning this year at 18.

Pretty much every year there's a solid tackle from 16-20.

Considering you should be able to trade OBJ for at least a 2nd, the net spend is likely just the 1st rounder.

Bolles? You mean the guy CP called Mongo who almost lost his job because he was so bad?

Do you think that’s realistic when that’s the amount of money a below average LT just got this off-season on a multi-year deal?

18/year now buys Cam Robinson.

Wow. There's a lot of shit on that list. It took Bolles to his 4th season to finally break out and not be a complete bust, Wynn has been injury prone his entire career, only playing in 34 games in 4 seasons, and has been moved from T to G before finally putting together a halfway decent season in 2021 at LT. Jackson was an absolutely horrific LT and needed a switch to G to save his career. If those are your best examples we need to keep Brown at absolutely all costs.

Exactly.

People are just very unrealistic of where the market is right now, and where it will be when the cap goes up.

People can bitch all they want, yell get off my lawn comments at the internet sphere but the market for very average is set, 3 years/$54 million. He can be a top 10 LT. Improve his skill at slowing down speed rushers.

Gave up a 1st and 3rd to get him here. Going to have to give up that and more to move up to 17-20 to get a prospect that may or may not pan out. Why?

Bolles followed a normal growth of a rookie, so unfortunately he became what may be the best LT in the game after 3 seasons and is a guy worth paying because he actually can protect at QB now. Still waiting on OBJ to do that. I like him on the tag this year because maybe he will.

Luck with injury isn't exactly a factor here for me. Wynn is a good LT. That's like saying every player taken in the 20s is going to be injury-prone.

But anyhow, here's a few more...

Taylor Decker - 16.
DJ Humphries - 24
Nate Solder - 17
Anthony Costanzo - 22

Are those guys shit too?

That's not even mentioning a guy like Donovan Smith taken at the top of 2.

And there are guys just around 15 like Kolton Miller at 15, Tunsil at 13, Wirfs at 13, and so on. Not impossible to get to.

I don't hate OBJ or even not want to sign him, but signing a guy who is a liability against the pass rush on a passing team for 24+ a season is foolish to me. I like him enough to give him next-tier money, 18-19 is reasonable for a guy that isn't a top-shelf player but in an ever-ascending market. He's not reasonable with his demand and I wouldn't match it, at least not now. I like him on the tag this year. Let him prove he can be a true blindside protector because right now he's not. At least not a guy you can leave on an island and scheme to him instead of around him. If you're going to do that, you might as well be playing a rookie there and suffering the same ups and downs.

I don't think he's better than an above-average LT. And you can cite Cam Robinson all you want, but Matthews and Miller just signed 18 per extensions and they are much better players. Mailata just signed for 16 per, who I'd put in the discussion with Brown. Absolutely no ****ing way I'm paying Brown better than guys like Williams and Bahktiari who are far better players.

VEACH!!!!

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-of...rankings-tiers

I know it is PFF but what an article.
Tier 5: Late bloomers
23. Orlando Brown Jr., Kansas City Chiefs

Browns’ success in pass protection with the Ravens came with the caveat that defenses have to alter how they rush the passer against Lamar Jackson, as pass-rushers are often tasked with containing Jackson rather than flushing him from the pocket.

Brown had to make adjustments in Kansas City after some early-season struggles, notably in Week 1 against Myles Garrett, but he settled in as the season progressed. The 6-foot-8, 345-pound tackle out of Oklahoma finished the year with a 74.4 PFF pass-blocking grade — the lowest of his career but still a respectable mark.

He projects as a good, not great, starter for Kansas City, which makes the upcoming contract negotiation between the two sides an interesting one to follow.

I agree fully with pff analysis. I would try to get value out of him in a trade.

What value would you get if he wants to be the highest paid LT but doesn't deserve it?

In addition to a well earned lesson, anything you can and you move on.

**** his crazy demands. Trade his ass or cut his ass. Put his back up out there or move Thuney there.

He’s a good but not great left tackle. Veach shouldn’t (and likely won’t) overpay.

Thuney isn't going to just bounce out to LT full time without a significant bump in pay.

The hole Tyreek left in the roster was bridged with a strong WR class coming up in the draft and some solid FA on the market. What alternatives are there when it comes to really good LT's entering their prime? When you're drafting at 32 the options are minimal at best.

Orlando has all the leverage and he's setting the bar at the top of the market price. These negotiations will be tricky but Veach and the KC FO are the class of the league. It'll get done and it'll make sense for both parties. We have to have him. We were lucky to get him here to begin with.

Yeah, and the deal ended up being a bargain compared to what QB after him signed for.

Tuckdaddy is rerunned

FAs present and future be watching

KC has not been cheap to deserving players but no team will make his 23rd ranked ass the highest paid LT. We would be stupid to do so. He isn't that good.

Sorry, help me out, what exactly is angiid? Is that a noun or an adjective?

Oh, I see that you've edited, my mistake

Lol PFF is junk.

First, the list you’re referencing has 9 right tackles on it in front of him. So if you’re talking about his position, that’s at worst 14th.

Second: the list has some questionable decisions. There are 3 very injured players on that list in front of him. There are players with similar uneven marks. Etc.

Third: it’s PFF. This is not even a player-based ranking. Essentially, it means nothing.

Stop being and idiot, genious.

Over 22 million the next 3 years isn't enough?

https://overthecap.com/player/joe-thuney/4791/

Hell want LT money instead of guard money

22.1, 22.6, and 22.6 is in the neighborhood.

He'd be the 8th highest paid LT by avg. if he was at LT. His contract is more of a tackle contract than a guard contracts.

But they're not moving him so it's a moot conversation.

When we signed him to that contract the whiners on here were saying that we gave him LT money.

If the Chiefs felt comfortable playing Thuney at LT, don't you think they would have... just rolled with him at LT last year?

It's nice depth to have in a pinch, but I don't think it's the plan or will become the plan.

I was just replying to Superturtles post. He is making LT money. So it wouldn't take a significant raise. Small raise? Maybe.

I do think they considered Thuney at LT last year. It may have been plan C behind Williams (plan A), and Brown (plan B). I'm not going to go searchinng for the article, but I know I read (or heard) that was a viable option.

They are not junk although they are not the greatest either.
Go ahead and post a link to a better more respected place with rankings for LT.

That’s not what he’s making.

He’s making about $15 million/yr over those 3 years.

That’s not really LT money.

Paying him as the top LT in the game right now aav and getting him for 6 years would be a very smart move. It would make him dirt cheap the first 2 years and by the time his cap hits go up, the salary cap in exploding.

To me, that seems like a no brainer.

He’s 26
He has HOF bloodlines
He has a superb work ethic
He wants to win
He will continue to improve as he refines his technique and chemistry with Pat and Thuney
The whole contract will be his prime years

The Chiefs have a chance to have an all-time O Line and the brain thrust here wants let guys walk and move guards to tackle.:LOL:

Tyreek wasn't instantly open & they do need to lean on the run a little more. OBJr seems fine to me

Dude..

No shit...:rolleyes:

Maybe it is but tape doesn't lie. Watch him in the games. He isn't that good at all. He gets ran around by DEs a lot.

You seem to not understand that if a DE runs a speed rush where he ends up at the 12 yard mark in the pocket, it is NOT a win for the DE.

Thanks for proving again how little this board understands the game

Whatever. How many media outlets think we should give him what he wants? None them do so I guess they don't know the game like us. Bullshit. He isnt that good and Andy and Veach know it.

Yes?

That's not necessarily what was happening 100% of the time. He was flat out beat on speed rushers a lot before we changed our offense.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Harold Landry flies by Orlando Brown here to get sack number 7.5. Bud Dupree with a sick inside counter too gets there half a sec after Landry 💙 <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Titans?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Titans</a> <a href="https://t.co/JPFc0vsmoo">pic.twitter.com/JPFc0vsmoo</a></p>&mdash; Wes on Broadway (@TitansDraftTape) <a href="https://twitter.com/TitansDraftTape/status/1454589219503054854?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 30, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Myles Garrett vs Orlando Brown in a huge 3rd down.<br><br>Sack.<a href="https://t.co/fbCCeg8BBE">pic.twitter.com/fbCCeg8BBE</a></p>&mdash; Dov Kleiman (@NFL_DovKleiman) <a href="https://twitter.com/NFL_DovKleiman/status/1437195223722041344?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 12, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I think you should throw out some more random intangibles.

One of those is a sack against the best pass rusher in the NFL, in his first game with KC. But yes, he got beat. And yes, he got beat on speed rushes legitimately at times.

He also improved a lot over the course of the season, and once Mahomes became more disciplined stopped having nearly so many problems.

The point was that just because a guy speed rushes and gets pushed wide of the pocket really deep in the pocket does not mean the defende won the rep.

I just put him on ignore. Can't take reading the same uninformed opinion over and over.

I've also decided it's pointless to argue with all the idiots in the thread that can't seem to wrap their head around the fact that OBJ is going against guys that are also really ****ing good. The difference in talent between NFL caliber players is so small that even minor disadvantages become huge burdens. When Mahomes drops back 12 yards, then that makes Brown's job much more difficult. Edge rushers knew they could just go as fast as they could and pretty much go in a direct line to the QB without having to bend.

In Mahomes first couple of years he wasnt dropping back and bailing on the pocket immediately. He was a master of working in the pocket. That all changed the last part of 2020 when the interior OL was shit and he was getting pressure up the middle constantly and Geoff Schwartz even brought it up, because Mitchell Schwartz didn't look good. That changed the middle of last year and he got back to being a stud in the pocket, because he could trust his OL.

Anyone saying Fisher is better just doesn't remember how masterful Mahomes was in the pocket and if Fisher would have been LT for us last year, then Mahomes would have been killed.

Fisher was a good LT when we had Smith too though...

First sack is on Remmers. If he doesn't get his shit pushed in and does what OBJ does, then Mahomes steps up into the pocket and it never happens.

Second sack Mahomes is like 11 yards deep.

He was decent, but he looked way worse because Alex Smith had no clue how to navigate a pocket. Alexsexuals would always whine that Smith needed a better line and that Fisher was awful.

LMAO

LMAO... Watch the Cincinnati game again when Thuney played LT... He nearly got Mahomes killed and picked...

This is a perfect example of how someone will absolutely ignore the obvious, when it's stairing them right in the face, in order to prove their point, no matter how wrong it is. I don't know what to tell you but you're not going to see a LT get beat worse than OBJ did. If you can't see that it's only because you don't want to. Sure Remmers was ass, but OBJ was worse.

OBJ was even worse than ass on the Garret sack.

IMO, we should try and sign OBJ but not at a price that makes him the highest paid LT in football.