This tells me that although a player that's not a QB can have a tremendous impact on any given day, QB is still, by a wide margin, the MVP(osition).

You think the difference between Cassel in 2007 and 2009 is Weis and McDaniels?

See, I'm in the 'talent wins football games' camp. KC succeeded offensively because of Jamaal Charles. Since Haley arrived (meaning Cassel's career in KC) Kc averages 20 PPG with Charles in the lineup. We average 13 PPG without him.

Charles makes a bigger difference than an OC.

1 good WR being thrown to by a garbage QB is what we have on offense. That's it.

Same thing in NE. McDaniels didn't make Cassel look good. Moss and Welker did.

Talent wins games in this league.

The part that you are leaving out is the wise man said this a long time ago.

Now, at one time, this was true. However, you really need to have a balanced team to win a Championship. Given the new rules, even a great defense will give up points to a great offense. You have to at least be able to keep up offensively.

Also, the Bucs defense was the same for a long time. It was great. Tony Dungy was the head coach. The offense stunk. Gruden came, and suddenly, they win a Super Bowl. The defense was actually not quite as good, but the offense..... the offense was much better.

Oh, and the Pats were mediocre on both sides of the ball. They were the first team in the history of the league not be rated in the top ten in either offense or defense and still win the Super Bowl. So, you could use that team to argue that you don't need an elite defense either.

The bucs had their best defenses in history in 2002. They were ranked #1 in nearly every category. The offensive production barely changed. They actually averaged fewer points than they did in 2001 under Dungy.

Monte Kiffin was the genius behind that D. Not Dungy.

Point being... get a quality QB or have a defense that ranks in the top 5 of all time.

One of these is easier to achieve than the other.

Like I said, too many variables:

1) Defenses tend to be ahead of Offenses to start the season.

2) Our line pass blocked poorly at the beginning of the year.

3) The Broncos tried as hard as they could to keep the pass O that McD put in place but we do have a mostly new coaching staff.

4) Our WR corps regressed with Lloyd being the only consistent target and Decker improving over time.

5) Orton had Tebowmania breathing down his neck, and it's possible that Orton just shit himself under the pressure.


So yeah, I think McD leaving had a negative effect on Orton. They had built a strong working relationship. When Orton first came to the Broncos he said something like, "I have learned more in six months being coached by McD than I learned in six years previously." But there was more going on there.

Charles was here in 2009 for the whole season. The Chiefs scored 18.4 points.

In 2010, the Chiefs scored 22.9. Again, JC was here the whole season.

In 2011, the Chiefs are averaging 15.65 points per game with Cassel in.

JC played the first game in which the Chiefs scored seven points.

As far as Moss/Welker. Yes, they are great. But, McDaniels was able to get over 25 points a game out of a Cassel led offense. You think he would struggle this much with Cassel along with Bowe, Breaston, Baldwin, and McCluster?

Heck, McCluster would probably look like a legit second round pick if we had McDaniels calling the plays instead of Staley Haley.

Heck, look at what he was able to do with Brandon freaking LLoyd and Eddie Royal.

So, to sum it up, yes, I think that Haley is the biggest problem on this offense.

That isn't completely true. I think that Haley doesn't have enough time to be HC and OC and I don't think he can work with a good offensive coordinator.

I would not try to explain the concept of 'correlation does not equal causation". People on message boards like linear thinking.

I stand corrected. I remember the offense being better than the year before. Maybe that was more towards the end of the year when the Bucs were coming together more.

The point still stands that they had a great defense for a long time, and it wasn't until Gruden was hired as the head coach (offensive minded Coach) that they were able to get to the Super Bowl.

I have not doubt that the opponent in the Super Bowl had much to do with their actual winning of the Championship.

As fans, on the oustside of the locker room, coaching and player meetings, we are left with an ability to examine correlation.

Sure, we can attempt to look at causation, but any such attempt would be woefully incomplete.

Also, as fans with opinions, we tend to argue correlation concepts when they favor us, and causation comments when we are trying to refute an argument.

Honestly, the reality is that none of us have it right. Not 100% anyway. Heck, the coaches themselves don't have it right 100%.

This isn't like putting together a puzzle. Football players are human. All kinds of things affect their performance.

While I agree with you, that correlation does not equal causation, I would further state that any examination of causation without all the facts is futile.

Charles barely played until the games against the Jags. Obviously him being on the bench is not what I meant. I'm rather disappointed I have to explain that.

The numbers are there. 20 PPG with charles, 13 PPG without him.

Using him for 2 carries or returning kicks does not count in my eyes. Sorry champ. Charles was a difference maker.

McCluster is not good. You guys need to just accept that he's a slow 5-7 RB who can't break or elude tackles. It's not coaching. He's just not that good. He's a shitty version of Dante Hall. A smaller, slower, less elusive version of Hall. A gadget player without the talent to fill that role. He's not an impact player. He's proven that over the course of 2 seasons. We get him in space over and over and he does NOTHING.

Again, you think the NFL is all about coaching. I'm still sticking with talent. KC would have won no more than 6 games without Charles last season and Weis AND Cassel would have been terrible.

I hope Orton has retained what he learned from McDaniels. I doubt he will get similar coaching up from Haley.

I just purchased a "Forever Lazy".

http://www.tvgasm.com/wp-content/upl...blue-group.jpg

It comes with a zippered butt flap. I am now going to go attempt to take a shit while wearing it. I will get back to this thread when I am finished.

bill muir is angry at this thread

Haley is not going to be the ****ing coach next year so who cares?

Part of being a coach and an offensive coordinator is using the talent to the best of their abilities.

JC riding the bench is on Haley. To think that you would use this as an excuse FOR Haley is astounding.