I posted the roster above. But I'll do it for you. He brought in Charles, Albert, flowers, carr, Hali, bowe, glenn Dorsey, Barry Richardson, Wade Smith, Ron Edwards, pollard, page. That is more than a handful. 7 of those guys started for many years. Richardson, Smith, Dorsey, page, Edwards were adequate enough to start.

That's while spending barely any new money on free agents. Even a good game is lucky to hit on one quality scrap haul player and landing 3 quality players in one draft is considered excellent. Over 3 years, that's 12 players.

But you keep comparing him to either elite gms or gms who spend a shit load of money on free agents. And most of those gms, by the way, are building rosters that probably have more than half of their starting roster already set with decent enough talent. Herm spent virtually no money and within 3 years, only had 1/4 of vermeils roster worth keeping.

Well this escalated quickly. Buehler_445 issuing a classic CP beatdown...

You get them to me and I will personally fly out to western kansas, pick up Notorious and we will hand deliver them to Buehler_445.

It would be a filmed and documented trip.

There are plenty of people who agree that:
1) herm inherited a really really bad roster because of vermeil
2) herm made the right and bold decision to blow the roster up, despite Petersons resistance

And there are plenty who understand that comparing herm, who had not only no money to work with, but massive debt on top of an Embarrassingly poor young pipeline of players, to coaches with established rosters and semi stable spending power is completely unreasonable.

I have plenty of support on those points, even from those who acknowledge that herm was a shitty coach.

Aren't we still blaming Vermeil for 100% of Herm's failures?

Herm is a joke of a coach. There's a reason he wasn't going to take a DC job after he left KC. He can't do it. There's a reason the Jets were going to fire him.

KC lost draft picks to acquire a 4-12 coach who was going to get fired anyway. The team not only declined every season, but actually declined as the season progressed. I can't believe anyone would still defend this clown.

His only claim to fame was that Carl Traded Jared Allen netting a load of picks in one of the deepest drafts in recent memory. A person could have thrown darts at a list while blindfolded and hit on half of those picks.

The issue is that the herm critics are blaming herm 100% for vermeils failures. Nobody is saying vermeil is 100% responsible for herms failures. Herm wasn't a good coach. We all acknowledge that.

More importantly, his haters are feeding the illusion that he took a good team and sent it to the trash. That's complete nonsense. He inherited a ticking time bomb and he had two losing seasons because he made the right decision to blow the roster up. Maybe bad coaching costed the team a few wins. But they still would have been a losing team regardless of who coached them.

Herm was not a good coach. But that's separate from what he did with personnel.

Jesus ****ing Christ. Page was trash after we cut him. Pollard did OK but was always garbage in coverage. Wade Smith was bleh. Richardson was garbage. Did he even get another job? Ron Edwards did ****all after we let him go.

That's 11 guys and half of them are depth at best. Way to go man. That's ****ing 20%. He had 3 years, 159 roster spots to work with that you can roll each week for 16 games. Not to mention the opportunity to bring in HUNDREDS of guys to look at at camps and workouts and he came up with ****ing ELEVEN? **** man. That's a joke.

And I'm not comparing him to elite dudes. If he's literally HORRIBLE at everything and you're grandstanding him as just what the Chiefs needed he better come up with more than 20% of a ****ing team. That's abysmal.

And we're off!!!

Peeroy was an undercover Hermine member. No doubt.

One of these days Buehler_445. I want to sit down and hear how you really feel about Herm....

Nah. He will be right back here to say that Vermiel had it SOOOO screwed up that it's not possible to assemble more than 20% of a team in 1,000 days.

Ben makes every OC look great though. Haley gets credit for letting them still play that way though.

How many draft picks + scrap haul free agents did Dick Vermeil bring in in 5 years? How about Scott Pioli in 4 years? It was less than what Herm brought in in 3 years. Go ahead and look it up. I don't know what your expectation is for how many players get plucked from the draft and scrap haul. Usually 3 from the draft and 1 or 2 from the scrap haul per year, and that's considered a good year. And don't compare him to a guy like Dorsey, who's been excellent at building scrap haul. Most teams build the back-end of their roster through years upon year and years of roster development.

The difference is... these guys were trying to build to win. Herm was trying to clean up the roster. We went from a $25M overage to $50M under in just 3 years. That's a $75M payroll swing.

Big Ben actually was very resistant to what Haley wanted to do. He used to be a freelancer, but everyone could see it was taking a toll on his body. Haley forced him into a pocket offense with quicker reads. It was exactly the change Ben needed at this stage of his career.