Bullshit.

But go ahead and claim that nonsense because you don't have a leg to stand on in this debate.

As usual.

And what's Denver's excuse?

You failed to address that one as well.

Or are you going to claim that without Orton, they'd suck?

LMAO

Succop and Chambers are definitely positives, though we still need more evidence from the latter.

Regarding LJ, let's be honest, he did that to himself. Pioli made the right decision, but was there really a choice?

And how sickening is it that Charles was being grossly misused before LJ went stupid on Twitter?

I have plenty of patience if there is evidence the rebuild is being done right. Being done right does not necessarily mean it has to be the way I would like it done. Being done right means we should be seeing signs of progress. The Steelers game was obviously an outlier to the data that has been collected so far. It gave us all false hope. The reality is this rebuild has not begun to get off the ground yet. In fact, it may have been pushed back another year or two by poor decision making by the talent evaluators... and that is what I don't have patience for.

last years FA crop sucked. Canty is a role player, like Alex Magee, but Magee is a rook and will take a year to develop. Haynesworth is very good. Also injury prone, in the prime of his career, so by the time this team is a perennial contender, he is declining, and yet we would have paid a hundred million for him. Brown is OK. Thats it, OK. Not an impact player. This offseason boils down to Pioli knowing that a Haynesworth type of signing, although it pleases the internet GM's such as you, really doesn't translate into building a perennial contender because the team around him is so bad. So, rather than pull a Carl Peterson and bring in a few big dollar guys to sell tix, he is sticking to his plan to build a contender for the long haul.

He didn't do it last year what makes you think he would have done it this year?

There you go supporters defend that one, LJ started over Charles, Charles was even inactive 1 week, is that a glowing endorsement that they know what they're doing?

I predicted 3 wins this season. I didn't expect anything close to instant reward. But I did expect just a little bit of progress. Something, anything to indicate we're headed in the right direction and actually building something. The fact is, many are scratching their heads trying to come up with a short list of improvements over last season, and coming up with next to nothing.

Yea well that didn't stop us from using the 3rd pick on a role player and then trading for a shitty QB, but hey all is well.

And yet he still out coached Herm with 22 players off the street LMAO

The worst part is there's no progress if anything they've gotten worse, especially Cassel.

That's what 1st round picks are for...

Now can you say the same about Tyson Jackson? Even close?

I disagree with that, Haleys dipshit 4th down calls alone make him worse.

And for the video game comment earlier, we should all be thrilled things like madden exist because that realm is the only place we'll likely ever see the Chiefs win anything.

Because an ultra-conservative game plan would have beaten Oak.

****, it wouldn't have taken much. Oakland did everything short of hand us the win.

Exactly what scares me. I didnt expect alot of wins, but did expect player progression.


IM thinking if Haley doesnt win another game, he might be done. Definately on very thin ice at the beginning of next season.

The idea that we're better just because Carl and Herm are gone is bunk, they sucked but that doesn't mean these guys don't suck just as much or more.

Mecca I want to go back and address your no foundation players comment. Do you not believe that both Jackson and Magee are not foundation type players? I know they aren't sexy picks but they could solidify their positions for years to come.

I think someone needs to qualify what a foundation player is? Wouldn't Jackson be considered a foundation player? Yeah I know we'd like to have gotten more of an impact type of player drafting where we did but there really wasn't one there for us. Orkapo I guess but he was from Texas. Not sexy but Jackson is a piece of the foundation.


PhilFree:arrow:

No I don't we used our first 2 draft picks on complimentary players. And to top that off Jackson has done nothing while Magee plays roughly 10 snaps a game.

If Jackson is your foundation then we are building a trailer.

He won more games that Herm did with supposedly alot shittier roster.

He was successful in duping us into paying him 20MM to sit back and wait and be patient with no immediate progress. He was also successful in geting his boy toy Matt Cassel 63MM knowing that he sucks the penis.

LOL the only players on this team that are any good are Herms players, all of Pioli's moves have sucked nuts.

If Haley would stop trying to call a game like he's playing Madden 10 we might have a couple more wins.

So a complimentry position player isn't part of the foundation. I would think those guys are where the foundation was built.

PhilFree:arrow:

I'm not questioning the legitimacy of the question I'm questioning why a person would give you the ammunition you plan to use to shoot them.

You can count me as one who likes 80% of what Pioli and Haley have done, but for the sake of peace on the planet I will only share with you what I specifically don't like.

I don't like Pendergast and I don't like Haley serving as the QB coach and OC (although I do see a silver lining as Haley is becoming intimately familiar with his offensive talent). Cassel and Vrabel was a good use of the 2nd pick, but I don't like how Cassel was given the big contract and handed the job before proving himself in KC. I wish Pioli had done more to address the OL in the draft and free agency although he has done well since the season started. Pollard should not have been released instead given the Bowe and DJ treatment and I don't like Dwayne Wade or Quinten Lawrence.

Aren't we supposed to be patient with rookie D-Lineman so why the expectations? Dorsey didn't do shit last year either.

How many 5-tech 3-4 lineman are foundational players for other teams?

Magee? Seriously?

I thought you didn't care about wins? ;)

Using a top 5 pick on a complimentary player is surely the best way to build a champion right?

When did Dirk turn into a reerun? This week has not been kind to him.

To me, a foundational player must either play one of the most important positions on the field or be an impact player, a game changer.

QB, LT, WR, RB, NT (34), LB (who can rush the QB or who is an absolute monster in the middle, Patrick Willis), CB, or S.

Unless a 34 DE transcends his position, he's not a foundational player, IMO.

That sums it up.

You're premature with your evaluation but it fits your argument. If Jackson makes strides in his second year like Dorsey has his then maybe we'll end up in a double wide. LOL

PhilFree:arrow:

Richard Seymour...not saying he is equal to him just using him as an example

Magee on the other hand I have seen some flashes from him when he gets to play but he still has a ways to go.

Tyson Jackson could be the best 5 tech in the league and he'd still never live up to that draft position.

I also like how everyone goes to Seymour as the comparison. I think we should just pop up the best OT and go "hey Ogden man"

LMAO This week? I haven't hardly been on this week so what the hell are you talking about?

I think I'm just going to go bury my head in the sand and tell myself everything is going to work out just cause I like the Chiefs, seems to work for some.

I disagree. Those are highly visible players. Shutters, soffits, paint and trim. You never see the foundation because it's down in the ground holding up the rest of the house. Foundation players are the guys that go unnoticed while doing the very impoartant dirty work. If not then why would they have used the word foundation?

PhilFree:arrow:

This thread will be a good one to bump a year from now regardless of the outcome.

He asked a question I answered it and I even clarified that I wasn't comparing him to Seymour.

You know I realize you only need a 2nd grade reading class to be a loser telemarketer but you should learn how to read at a higher level.

How many palyers truley live up to that position? And from that draft?


PhilFree:arrow:

What would a year from now have to do with his failures THIS offseason?

Hell, he better knock it out of the park in 2010 - but that doesn't change the epic fail of 2009.

Your foundation is QB, LT, and Pass Rusher. You build from there.

We could have signed Canty and Housh, Drafted Sanchez and Maualuga, and it would have been cheaper and we would be in better hands now.

You think the positions I listed are representative of artifice? The QB? The LT? A 34 NT? An elite WR?

You can't possibly be serious.

Whenever anyone talks about foundational players, they're not talking about guards and TEs, much to the chagrin of KC fans.

Foundational players are cornerstones, players you build around, not those that necessarily do the dirty work.

Because then the narrative could be spun differently, and that's about it.

When people talk about foundation it's usually QB and the trenches. That's where it all starts.

Thanks.

Certain players on the line, but not the sweeping statement you just made.

LT, NT (34), DE (43).

LT and Passrusher.

I agree here. I said so in my post, so I agree with myself I guess.

BINGO
this

"Foundation" players are by definition players that others can be built upon, right? Like Linemen, QBs and Pass rushers. That is my opinion anyway.

I am not in love with the TJ pick at all, but am not slitting my wrists about it like others here have.

Richard Seymour wasnt supposed to go before 12 at the earliest. He turned out pretty good, even though he was overdrafted to be a "foundation" piece to a great defense.

Another reason I am not crying about the pick is that dlinemen take a couple years to get up to the level of expectation...almost universally. Meaning that if we are building a puzzle that is scheduled to be completed in two or three years, that would mean this wasnt a horrible time to take a position that is very rare to find, even more rare to find as a good prospect. Hopefully, the turkey is ready when we need to eat...if ya catch my drift.

About every team that runs a 3-4 that was in the top half of this last draft came out and said they had TJ targeted as well, much to the shagrin of many of the experts.

Id love to see what TJ will do once we add a good rushbacker behind him. I bet said rushbacker has much success because he is able to focus on more because of what TJs talents allow him to. I am being "glass half full" in this of course, because I love this team and want them to come out of the storm as a contender and not the next version of the Lions...I do admit that a lot of the optimism I had a month or so before Pioli was signed and done as our GM, is gone or faiding.

Time will tell.

So despite the fact that Seymour was drafted as a DT in a 4-3, and was converted to a 3-4 DE 3 years later, that's the only name you can come up with?

I don't find that very convincing.

It depends on what your opinions on the alternatives are.

It's looking like the only player that would have been worth that pick is orakpo, and he's the guy you thought had the bigest bust potential.
If I thought that the 5-tech that was available would be a damn good player, and the players at thew other postion would not, I'd have to take the 5-tech.

Well there wasn't a matt Ryan sitting there in this draft.

Damn near any of the top WRs last year would have justified the selection:

Maclin, Harvin, Crabtree.

Raji would have justified the selection.

That is what we should have done here.

That is my big gripe so far, dont you go with the system that fits your players?

I can see moving to the 3-4, but to do so at the drop of a hat was kinda sketchy when we had more 4-3 players here...oh well spilt milk. No sense crying about it any longer.

No, there wasn't a Matt Ryan. However, there was a Mark Sanchez, a B.J. Raji, a Clay Matthews, a Brian Cushing, a Percy Harvin, a Eugene Monroe, etc. available. All of which have become foundational players.

Just so you know this is the same forum where a bunch of people didn't want Matt Ryan.

Sorry.

Here is an interesting article about 3-4 DE's.

http://www.nfltouchdown.com/nfls-newest-trend-3-4-des/
NFL’s Newest Trend: 3-4 DE’s


After spending virtually all of March and April reviewing the 2008 film on all 32 teams, what stood out the most was just how important the defensive line has become in a 3-4 scheme.

Because the 3-4 scheme continues to seep deeper into the NFL mainstream we’re going to see more emphasis placed on the demands of its personnel. The common belief has long been that pass-rushing outside linebackers make or break a 3-4 defense. This is still true. But what teams are starting to figure out is that the defensive ends are almost equally as vital – especially when it comes to stopping the run.

No longer is it good enough for a three-man front to have just a dominant nose tackle alongside two mediocre ends. As the film showed this past season, the best 3-4 defenses are the ones that control the entire line of scrimmage – including the edges.
Take a look at the personnel of some of the best 3-4 defenses in the NFL. The Pittsburgh Steelers have their blocker-eater in NT Casey Hampton, and then they have two excellent anchors in Aaron Smith (who, by the way, can also get in the backfield) and Travis Kirschke.

The next best 3-4 defense is either the New England Patriots or Baltimore Ravens. It’s no coincidence that the Pats feature future Hall of Famer Richard Seymour at one end and maddeningly underrated stud Ty Warren at the other. The Ravens present a burgeoning young star in Haloti Ngata at one of their end spots, and powerful veteran Trevor Pryce at the other.

The rest of the NFL has taken note. They saw the Browns defense and its pathetic ends get pummeled despite the presence of All-Pro NT Shaun Rogers last year. They saw Dallas suffer from the unusual inconsistencies of Marcus Spears and Chris Canty. This is why 3-4 DE’s Tyson Jackson, B.J. Raji (who can also play NT) and Evander Hood all went in the first round this past weekend.

I thought it was a little curious that the Chiefs – who are implementing a new 3-4 scheme in 2009 – took Jackson at No. 3 overall. They already had Tamba Hali – who is undersized but a good enough run defender to handle an anchoring role – along with last year’s first-round pick, Glenn Dorsey, who looks like the next Richard Seymour (and that’s something I’ve never said about anyone before). Dorsey could possibly play the nose, but I think his talent is too unique to be muffled by double teams inside.
Still, Chiefs GM Scott Pioli came from New England and understands the importance of building up front. Give him the benefit of the doubt here.

For the Packers, don’t be surprised if they use Raji in the same way the Ravens use Ngata. The Boston College product is big and explosive enough to wreak havoc from the nose, but he also has enough athleticism to operate with more space on the edge. Veteran behemoth Ryan Pickett is capable of handling the three-gap responsibilities inside, which is why I think you’ll see Raji get plenty of reps on the edge.

Hood, the newest Steeler, has the easiest transition to the NFL. He’ll spend this season, and possibly next season, developing behind Smith, Kirschke and Brett Kiesel. The Steelers’ three-man front dictates the action every Sunday because Pittsburgh’s scheme places minimal responsibilities on the linemen, which allows all three men to operate more as one unit.
<!-- end .entry -->

Damn, gone an hour and a half and this thread blew up.

Thoughts:

Someone said Jason Brown has had no impact in STL. Might want to ask Steven Jackson about that. Dude is facing a constant 8 in the box, and he's SECOND in the league in rushing yards.

Someone also made the ignorant claim that it would have cost KC 25% more to sign him. STL was in as bad of shape as we were/are, why would he demand more to play here?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I still haven't seen an answer to these questions:




-------------------------------------------------------------------------


First, this has NEVER been about wins - it's about acquiring some building blocks. I wouldn't have signed Haynesworth, but I absolutely would have signed Brown and either Canty or Olshansky. That would have not only opened up our R1 pick for a playmaker, but would have given us young, long term solutions to build on.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Couldn't agree more, Fish.

We ALL though that Denver was going to CRASH and BURN.

Which goes to show that all this hindsight 20-20 crap about all the ****-ups
that that were made this off-season are so redamndiculous.
Everybody bitches about the TJ pick.
I don't have that big of a problem with it. I think he's gonna be a BAD ASS.
And if that's the case, it's better to have a bad-ass 5 tech, than a bust QB like Sanchez is gonna be.
That's my point.
Everbody makes this huge deal about positional value, and they are right, but there just wasn't shit up there. Orakpo looks like a beast next to Henderson, Sure, would he look like that here? I doubt it, but I would have had no problem with, that pick either.
Pioli came out before the season and said that they were going to evaluate this roster first. It was as plain as day that, that's what they were going to do.

I'll admit I didn't want Matt Ryan, so will OTW and Hamas and we all eat crow about being wrong about him.

"I had an interesting conversation this week with Coach (Jimmy) Johnson. We were talking about defensive linemen, and I’m not comparing him to this player I’m about to speak about. I remember Coach Johnson a long time ago in conversations Bill and I had had with him and in separate conversations about Russell Maryland. That year they were due to pick the fourth spot overall and they traded up from four to one to get Russell Maryland, a player who played in the league for 10 years, had only 24 and a half sacks over the course of his career and only went to one Pro Bowl. But Coach Johnson talked about the importance of Russell Maryland – again, different positions – how he allowed him to play the defense they wanted to play and what an important component he was even though he didn’t rack up sacks or only went to one Pro Bowl. What he was as a player in a very key position allowed the defense to be what the defense was."

4th round--109th overall.
Undrafted.

"Give him the benefit of the doubt." Trust the process, boys.

Well, I am guessing you wont be talking about the FAIL of '09 if he makes a free agent splash or two, lands a known 3-4 defensive coordinator, brings in a QB coach and offensive coordinator, and has a nice draft, then we are sitting with 7 or 8 wins this time next year. My point being that maybe, just maybe, he knows more about football than you or I and maybe, just maybe you will realize that this wasn't the FAIL you thought it was. On the other hand, I could be the one realizing just the opposite. I'm banking he knows more than us.

Maclin would be a waste for us, he is a deep threat and we cant throw deep.

Harvin would be a piece that would have been nice, but playmaking wrs can be had later in the round in almost every year.

Crabtree acted very immature and I wonder how he would have fit in with Haleys style. I liked him, though. He was my #2 option to Orakpo.

Raji would be a great pick as our NT, but the guy is dumb and missed a year of school because of it. Do you really want to hand that much $$$$ to a dumb****?

All the top prospect olinemen had huge question marks, when you have as many wasted picks as we had in the last ten or so years, you have to come out of the draft with "something" and taking TJ has obviously effected Dorseys play IMHO. I bet anything it factored into the decision.

I hate the fact we didnt take Orakpo, but also realize that these kids are gonna take time to show their worth.

So, one of the starting DE's on the best 3-4 defense in the NFL was drafted in the 4th round, and the other was undrafted.

And of the others, the only guy taken in the Top 5 was Jackson.

You've really sold me, Dirk.

Give him credit. Dane did NOT think this, and there are a shit ton of posts from him saying otherwise, cautioning people not to discount Denver.

LMAO. Maclin would have been wasted because our QB sucks. Calvin Johnson would be wasted, too, but I'd take 'em.

In a talent-weak class, I just listed 4 clearly better options.

Regarding Raji, we hand money to dumb****s all the time in KC; it's what we do.

So, if he does all those things, all is forgiven?

Personally, I'd be asking, "why didn't that happen LAST year?"

A wasted year is a wasted year, regardless of what happens in the future.

What we all expected to be at least a 2-3 year rebuild has just turned to a 3-4 year because we've done nothing but spin our wheels in Year One.

That is a good article. And I don't deny that with many more teams converting to the 3-4, the 3-4 DE is becoming more important. But the article itself says the Jackson pick was "curious". And that they thought perhaps Hali and Dorsey could have filled that role. And it pains me that they compare Dorsey to Seymour instead of Jackson.

I"m aware of all of that shit.
It doesn't change my view at all.

2 guys who landed in a hell of a lot better circumstances, who hit on some nice acquisitions, does not lead me to believe that the GM of our team is a moron who is not doing the right things to succeed in the long run.

Yes I asked for some examples, but it's just not that comperable a scenario.

Uh, NO.

I stated throughout the offseason in several threads that I thought that Denver would at LEAST be 8-8.

Denver is loaded with youthful talent but in addition to that, they signed the largest amount of free-agents in 2009. It definitely worked out for them (AND they have Chicago's pick this draft).

Again, more HORSESHIT.

Based on what, exactly? What have YOU seen that makes you think that Tyson Jackson, a TWO-DOWN player, is going to be a quote "Bad Ass".

Please share.

Gonna be? What does this mean "gonna be"? He's had a few rough games this season, no doubt. But he's picked himself up and fought through it. There's no doubt he'll be a better QB next year than this year, which is the point.

Furthermore, throw Sanchez out of the equation: How about Michael Oher? Percy Harvin? Vontae Davis? Knowshon Moreno? Jeremy Maclin?

Don't you think that ANY or all of these guys would have had an IMMEDIATE and SUBSTANTIAL impact with the third pick overall and if so, why did the genius Pioli not see that?

You're fool if you believe this. First off, Pioli has 45 of his own guys on this roster, whether it's IR, the practice squad or the final 53. If he needs a year to evaluate the players he brought in ON THE FIELD, he's a ****ing dumbass of epic proportions.

lol.

I'm sure you would have been thrilled to see us take Brian cushing at threeROFL

Sanchez=bust IMO
Monroe=debateable

Percy Harvin at 3!!!!??????ROFL

Clay Mathews!!!?????
AT THREE!!!!???

How can you call Sanchez a bust when you sit here and say we all need to have patience with the shit in Kansas City?

Oh, this is just complete and utter ****ing BULLSHIT.

Atlanta was 3-13 the year prior. Denver was 8-8, traded their QB and had issues with Marshall AND a poor defense.

You look more foolish with each and every post.

I thought you were leaving forever because of the "hate farm" around here?

WTF happened?

You're ****ing dumb.

Plain and simple.

Smokin' crack again?

Ahh.
And exactly the reaction I expected. That was easy.

ALL of this hate stems from the Sanchez love afair you have, and how bitter you have been since we passed on him, and got Cassel.

Pull his balls out of your mouth. He's going to amount to JACK.

5th year vets deserve more patience than rookies.