In case you aren't aware, 40 times do matter for defensive backs, build the slowest team in football, watch what happens to you.

I'm sure you know our draft picks will be awesome by the intensity in their eyes.

I'm far from pissed. I'm saddened.

I'll root for them, as always, but I won't be surprised when the guys we passed on become superstars and we need to score 40 points a game to win on a weekly basis.

All of these bullshit appeals to a greater authority are useless.

If you really want to debate the stupid people who think the Chiefs ****ed up this draft, why don't you come up with an actual ARGUMENT as to why ignoring the front seven was a good idea.

And I'll tell you what, there actually IS a good argument, but none of the Pioli ball washers have come close to bringing it up. Because you're too busy polishing those rose-colored glasses.

So let's hear it...why was ignoring the front seven a great idea in a draft loaded with defensive talent? Don't just say "Pioli knows more than you."

I'm sure you have spew in your eyes.....I D 10 T....

PhilFree:arrow:

It doesn't piss me off, it does sadden me to know that we'll continue to suck though.

This has been my opinion since the picks were made. Our problem wasn't necessarily giving up huge run plays, it was not being able to get our defense off of the field, leading to long, sustained drives. I fully expect Jackson to be better next year, and Dorsey to be even better. Add the big man in the middle, who doesn't need to be great himself, just big, and DJ and whoever should be able to stop the run better than they did last year.

On top of that, we were playing from behind for most of the season, leading the other team to try to preserve their win by running out the clock.

Hopefully we won't be seeing quite as many BIG third down plays this year. Between Berry and Arenas, I think we can cover the middle of the field now. They should both help in run support also. Flowers and Carr have the outside as far as coverage is concerned.

These two players should help the defense get off the field pretty well, forcing more punts, and hopefully Berry intercepting balls. If we can for the punt more often, and Arenas can get decent returns, it'll help our offense with a shorter field.

Add in the two new offensive threats, Moeaki and McCluster. McCluster should be the real get here, he will help with YAC and should help stretch the field when asked to. Will probably add the same playmaking ability Charles does. Able to hit it from anywhere on the field. As for Moeaki, if he can stay healthy, he should help around the middle of the field also. He also is more of a threat to gain big chunks of yards than most give him credit for. Should be pretty effective in the redzone also.

Asamoah, might be able to become a starter at either LG, C, or RG. This year, or eventually in the future. Really depends what happens with Waters, will he stay around after wanting out so badly in the past? Weigmann, can he still play? And Lilja, will he be successful outside of Indianapolis?

As for Lewis and Sheffield, who knows. Hopefully Crennel and Haley can get what they want out of Sheffield. Lewis should stand a chance at pressing for playing time and possibly starting role in the future.

The Chiefs did something that is really really sad in the grand scheme of things, ponder this. Last years draft was very deep in offense, offensive line specifically, this years draft was extremely deep defensively.

In back to back years we have now ignored what the value of the draft was, that is not smart.

NO 40 times do NOT matter.. speed matters. 40 times are not a very accurate way to measure football speed... it's time for us to dump that "measurable"

If a player is slow off the blocks they can lose up to 3/4 of a second... so what could be a 4.3 time ends up a 5 ...

Simply because they aren't TRACK stars (who train that ONE aspect over and over) doesn't mean they aren't fast.

THIS is why film trumps combine every single time.

I'm not that worried about our front 7...

people talk all the time about how our run defense was so bad last year...and down the stretch...it did fall apart...that's for sure...especially when Dorsey wasn't playing.

But teams like the Ravens...running teams...they beat us for three quarters by passing the ball over and over and over...because our pass defense was worse than our run defense...and it wasn't even close...

like everyone said...we were TERRIBLE on 3rd and longs defensively last year...

you only have so many picks...apparently Pioli felt like upgrading the secondary was the better move with the players on the board when they were picking...

I have no problem with adding an OG and a TE...both positions of need...and a dynamic playmaker that can play in the slot/run the ball a few times/and return kicks here and there...

I'm sorry...I'm not disappointed about passing on Cam Thomas...and his 12 on the Wonderlic...and the fact that scouts say he takes a ton of plays off...

we will never draft a player like that as long as Pioli is GM...and I tell you what...I'm ok with that.

So which players outside of round one and two where such amazing values that led to huge contributions on the offensive line last year?

I for one will take Asamoah in the third over anyone selected from the 3rd-7th rounds last year.

FTR, Urbick's been a disaster in Pittsburgh and was my selection in the third round last year.

just remember...

our board guru took Clausen #1 overall (#48) and Bruce Campbell in the 1st round (he fell to what, pick #106?)...

This is the guy that says the Chiefs don't understand value.

Are Tight Ends more necessary than ILB's and pass rushers, when you have neither?

I guess you don't understand football, because even KC Johnny wouldn't argue that the TE position is more important than having a solid front 7.

Cody and Joseph fell to the 5th round? I must have missed that.

Baltimore runs a 43 base defense. Now I've heard everything.

The broadcasters specifically said that Cody and Kelly Gregg will likely split the NT reps in Baltimore's 34 defense.

Speaking of expecting instant success...

Didn't we just draft a nickle back last year?

I'm pretty sure we drafted a kick returner last year as well.

And I know we traded up for a tight end last year as well.

Seems like our own Executive of the Decade is guilty of what you just (inaccurately) accused me of.

As is Scott Pioli's. And looking at his overall draft history, I would say putting much stock in his opinions is a mistake.

Hamas took Bruce Campbell over Anthony Davis...

He's our draft guru, ladies and gentleman.

I said this same exact thing earlier in the thread. I don't don't give a **** if a guy runs a 4.3 but can't play the game.

Conversely, I don't give a **** if a guy runs a 4.7 but is seen making plays all over the field.

Football is about instinct and preparation. While the ideal player is fast, instinctive and prepares (like an Eric Berry), guys that aren't fast but are instinctive and prepared can prosper in the NFL.

You care about the wonderlic score of a fat guy who takes up blockers lol, you don't even have to have a brain to do what a NT does.

Todd Haley's hate of fat people is going to not allow us to run this scheme properly, NT's are fat get over it.

I'm personally looking forward to have 7 draft picks with "C"s on their jersey.

With all of these "Captains" we may need an Admiral or something ROFL

No need to read any further.

4.7 yards per carry allowed, 31st in the league.

The last ranked team allowed 4.8 yards per carry.

To allow an AVERAGE of almost 5 yards a carry in this league, you have to be giving up a lot of big runs.

Dorsey missed one game.

And IIRC, the Ravens ran for over 200 yards in the opener.

oh man I'm so angry we didn't draft a 5th round NT Cam Thomas who probably can't even read!

the talk on him is he is lazy and takes plays off...

Excuse me for not caring we passed on that guy.

How did we ignore what the value of the draft is? Because we didn't load up on all defensive players?

I'm just failing to understand all the negativity surrounding getting playmakers. People for years on end on this board claim we had no playmakers at all on this team and we needed to get them.

We add a playmaker in McCluster and 2 potentially in the secondary in Berry and Arenas and this has turned into "Pioli only wants choir boys on his team".

I'm sorry, I'm not going to cry over the fact that we didn't get a 2 down fat pig like Cody, who only really offered a warm body to put on the defensive line, instead of someone like Arenas who could do a lot of things in terms of coverage (I'm tired of seeing Brandon Flowers put on slot receivers last year) and in the return game where we had zero production all year.

Our team speed improved tremendously. I'm just not seeing all this constant negativity. As Dane said, it's a lot easier to get inside linebackers and fat bodied NTs than it is to get playmakers like McCluster.

Some of you are also taking this "team captain" bullshit too far. Yes, I'm sure the only criteria was that they were the team captains and not players that could be difference makers. It's not like they don't have a whole productive body of college work to show their abilities. It's just that they are the team captains.

Good ****ing grief.

But we need a kick returner/slot CB more, if they wanted to take McCluster I can somewhat accept that, but to turn around and take another returner and ignore the front 7 is criminal.

I don't think it is so ridiculous.

Welker is 5-9 185lbs
McCluster 5-9 170lbs

And at this point I would say McCluster is more explosive than Welker.

yeah and if you watched the opener...you know that it was the pass that really killed us...

they opened up their running game by gashing us with the pass over and over and over again for three quarters...and then Ray Rice put us away after our entire D was totally gassed...

But hey...

If you haven't noticed, all NT's scouting reports say this. Being 340lbs generally means you are a bit lazy, but in case you missed it, it's required to properly run the damn defense.

Chiefs gave up more runs over 20 yards than all but six teams. And they forced only five fumbles, 27th.

I'm just gonna call him Wexter McWelker

That's not true.

Dexter McCluster is a guy with playmaker potential, a combination Dante Hall/Wes Weswelker, but I still believe he's a part time player, and players that OTW and I have both talked about were guys that could be full time playmakers in this defense.

None of us are saying Dexter McCluster is a bad player.
He was a bad selection for the Chiefs at that spot.

The Ravens ran for over 200 yards against a lot of people.

The Chiefs defensive improvement is also going to come from coaching, which to me can make a huge difference on a defensive line.

So the pass defense sucks too, you are aware this team ranked 31st in run D right?

So is your argument that we suck at everything?

you know why we were drafting primarily team captains?

NEWS ****ING FLASH

Generally the best players on a team...as long as they have a hint of character...are team ****ing captains.

People are clamoring for Cody, who would essentially be a part-time player as well. He's not staying in on passing downs.

Mecca, I'd like for you to prove that you don't speak in absolutes and answer my question from earlier:

Which offensive lineman, outside of rounds one and two, were so amazing that it's crazy that we passed up?

We have so many guru's on this board....which one predicted this?

Coaching, scheme, improvement from year one to year two for players like Mays, Belcher and Jackson, in addition to Lewis and Berry.

Some people around here act as if the Chiefs didn't do a ****ing thing to improve their defense this offseason.

Basically.

For the first 10 games of last season...

I was MUCH more frustrated with our pass defense then our rush defense...

I was generally excited to see teams run on 1st and 2nd down against us...

We were better in 3rd and 3 than we were in 3rd and 12.

We drastically improved our secondary this weekend.

This belief that these coaches are riding in on white horses to turn shitty players into all pro's is not going to end well..

I remember last year "hey we'll win 4-5 more games on coaching alone!"

I see it's back.

I don't want anyone to get the impression I am fine with it. Outside of the Berry and McCluster pick which I think were pretty good I was not happy with most of their decisions.

Wex McWelker!!!!!

probably false hope like usual but I'm hoping we get something out of Derrick Johnson...I'm sure that hint of hope he gave us against Denver was probably a fluke, though =(

The players you mentioned may or may not be three down players, putting them in the same boat as McCluster.

I think that McCluster, regardless of whether or not he "starts" (which is dependent on who the Chiefs are facing) will likely see 70% of the offensive snaps if not more.

ITT: people that don't think the front 7 has a significant impact on pass defense.

Who were the amazing offensive lineman the Chiefs passed on in the 2009 draft from rounds three through seven?

Yes, the Ravens had more success in the 2nd half than they did the first.

But by my math, we allowed almost 70 yards on 13 attempts (5.38 average) in the first half.

Good defenses allow a few yards more than that in a game.

Who in their right mind wouldn't think that Charlie Weis and Romeo Crennel won't be far more effective on game day than Pendergast and Haley?

I don't think so...I don't even see how this is possible...He likely will not be playing as the RB and he won't even be on the field most likely unless we have 3 WR's in the game...Which will not be 70% of the time...I don't see how you could ever be correct on this.

As I stated in response to one of Dane's post like it or not any player that had character issues was not going to be picked by the Chiefs. That includes Kindle, Cody and Cam Thomas.

"Coaching alone will lead us to 7-8 wins."

-True Fan, circa April, 2009.

We didn't sign him b/c he was one of the very first to sign, and he signed with Chicago b/c he if from Illinois.

There are most likely only three offensive downs per down (I'm not counting fourth down).

McCluster will most likely be on the field at minimum, two out of three of those downs, putting it at 67% of the snaps.

He'll likely see time on first down as well.

The bottom line is that the guy will be constantly be on the field.

I don't think there is a good one unless you count Romeo playing the white knight. But we have seen this act before back in 2004 and it didn't work then and isn't going to work now.

Or maybe I have different idea, they are going to run a 3-1-7 D

But I definitely would be interested in your thoughts Clay.

1.) I didn't make that claim

2.) You're the idiot who grouped tight end in as a "luxury" pick.

Excellent rebuttal, since I clearly meant that every player OTW chose fell precisely in the 5th round.

I see you haven't improved your posting prowess any.

Actually, Baltimore's been known to run from both 3-4 and 4-3. However, given that the linebackers are Lewis, Suggs, Johnson and Gooden, I think it's safe to point out that they're generally running a hybrid with Suggs. Or are you going to pretend otherwise.

How nice for the broadcasters. Did they tell you exactly how many snaps he'll get in each game, too, or are just like everyone else and unsure of exactly how it will play out?

Things I'm reasonably sure of:

1.) The Chiefs need more than one tight end, and are likely to carry three.

2.) Teams sometimes have more than 3 cornerbacks on the field at the same time.

3.) The Chiefs are hoping that they got more than a KR out of that pick.

Actually, his overall draft history is excellent.

I've been criticized for the past two months for saying you can get a fat guy to take up blockers later in the draft, so I know that doesn't apply to me.

But don't act like there weren't full-time playmakers available at OLB and ILB when we picked.

That's the argument, Frank. The board set up perfectly to get playmakers at a position of greater need, and we passed.

Pioli values slot WR's and nickle CB's more than starting pass rushers and ILB's for a team that is dead last against the run.

That's scary.

I'm not expecting them to turn shitty players into all pros. If you thought that Glenn Dorsey and Tyson Jackson were being coached well by Tim Krumrie (someone you railed on every ****ing chance you got) and can't develop more as a player with someone like Romeo Crennel who has a resume of developing defensive lineman into very productive players.

Coaching does help. I don't know why there's a notion on this board that coaching can't improve players.

but if you'd think into it a little further like I do when I'm watching...

our only stops came on dropped passes or when they wasted 2nd downs on running plays...

go look at the 1st half drive charts...

furthermore...their game plan was to beat us through the air, not on the ground...and everytime we forced a 3rd and long Flacco completed a 1st down pass...

Our defense was BAD last year...

and it wasn't just the front 7...

Berry/Arenas along with development for some of the young guys will give us a much better defense than we had last year...though I imagine we'll still be pretty average at best defensively.

Offensively...

Wow...we really have a chance to do be a pretty good offense next year.

Think like the GM of a team who has an empty stadium and a quarterback who is being questioned.

We can agree to disagree here. I don't see things that way at all.

Without talent, it's not going to make much difference, Dane.

If you haven't noticed, with rare exception, the guys that stand out at OC and DC also have a shit-ton of talent on their squads.

Whoa. Easy there tiger. On average, about 5 players in every second round become pro bowl players. Probably a little over half become contributors. But the vast majority become average rotational starters at best. Let's not exaggerate here. The majority of the people we're yelling about not taking are going to be average rotational guys at best.

It's not nearly the same as Tyson Jackson, where you could easily argue that you passed up on a clear-cut solid starter.

You're totally dismissing the possibility that a person's initial reaction may have been uninformed. If I hadn't taken the time to study Jimmy Clausen highlights I would have probably taken your word for it that he was worth the fifth overall pick. There is nothing wrong with checking one's self to make sure he or she is better informed before spouting off about a topic.

When I first heard the commissioner say "Dexter McCluster," I had a holy shit moment. I knew who he was and that he was highly regarded but I was totally caught off guard. After about an hour of investigation and further research I was very happy with the pick. But my contentment was not the result of rationalization as much as it was being pleasantly surprised once I took the time to educate myself.

As a defense mechanism, rationalization is a very real phenomenon. And when people employ it they are generally unaware they are doing so. However, you cannot randomly accuse people of rationalization simply because they reconsider their initial reaction. After all, the initial reaction may have been a knee-jerk reaction while a change of heart may have been based on a conscientious effort to gather further information.

Some might suggest that the manner in which you attack those with whom you disagree is a form of displacement. That said, by trying to be too clever you often do a disservice to your own arguments, IMHO.

I disagree with the notion that this is "scary".

Both positions were positions of great need. If the Chiefs had a McCluster and Arenas type player currently on the roster and chose players identical to those guys while ignoring the need at ILB and NT, I'd agree. But that certainly was not the case.

He made a decision that a QB/RB/WR would add more to the team than an ILB or NT at #36. He made the decision at #50 that a KR/Nickel Back was more important at this point in time than a ILB or NT.

In my opinion, neither choice is right or wrong. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other and I'm not going to rake him over the coals for adding dynamic playmakers.

Explain to me how you can see it any other way?

Last year he thought the OL would be just fine as is.

This year, he thinks the front 7 will be fine as is.

Nevermind that he used high picks on positions that he drafted just LAST YEAR.

More than likely, the results are going to be eerily similar.

So what I'm getting from you and Mecca is that coaches really don't matter?

And the only guy we passed on that wouldn't have been a reach at 2a was an OLB with a legitimate injury concern.

You can't walk in with tunnel-vision and draft by need for the position you want. That's what got us in trouble by taking Tyson Jackson. The Chiefs took a guy that was on the top of their board and probably at the top of a lot of teams' boards.

You're arguing for a needs-based draft over BPA. You can have preference over one method or the other, sure, but taking BPA is usually the way to go beyond the first round.

Well, something has to give.

The people defending the McCluster pick say he's always be on the field because we're going to be in a lot of 3-wide formations.

Those same people then defend the Moeaki pick by saying we're going to be in a lot of 2 TE formations.

Do the math.

I'm beginning to think I'm one of only people that don't see this as a one year rebuilding program.

Quite honestly, I don't see anything special about Cam Thomas or Cody or Lee or Washington that can't be found in any draft, any year.

What I did see in this draft was a special guy like McCluster, who could line up and produce at any given skill position. I saw a cornerback that was also the nation's best returner.

He chose those guys because he believes that they're special players and playmakers and I have no problem with that.

Ok.

Offense sells tickets so we are going to be putting up alot of points with no D?

He used a high pick. Not picks. The only one affected by this was Donald Washington.

I see it as he wants playmakers on the field. I'm not going to cry about Sean Lee not coming here when he couldn't stay on the field at Penn State or Cody. I don't think either of those guys were going to make us a better front 7.

I don't think anyone knows for certain how Weis will line his guys up week after week but I most certainly expect to see Moeaki and McCluster on the field for the majority of the time.

If we're not putting up a lot of points, Pioli will look terrible.

In other news:

The 2009 draft was an absolute disaster. There's no defending it. We reached for players and we took a bunch of players off poor due diligence. I don't think this implies AT ALL that they don't care about the front 7. It only means that at the picks we were sitting at, we thought the BPA was at another position. It's not like missing out on a NT or an OLB is going to kill our Super Bowl chances in 2009. We weren't making the playoffs no matter who we drafted.

There are people who are defending the TE pick? **** that. That pick was just stupid.

LMAO

Absolutely priceless....

There is also the off chance that Weis will install a wildcat formation and if it's successful he'll be on the field for at least 80% of the offensive snaps. Throw in kick returns, probably an average of 4 a game, and he's a guy we'll be seeing a lot of.

If he stays healthy and plays that many downs our team speed just improved drastically and every skill position on the field with him will benefit.

Did you make that post about Shaun Smith? I guess I will have to see it to believe it. Also I just don't think we are going to see any improvement with our linebackers they all pretty much suck ass except maybe Hali.

**** no. That guy is a moron.

And I said, being generous, if he sees more than 55% of snaps and is the kind of playmaker that he's projected to be, then that pick is a fine one.

But I have to see it.

I believe he has the ability, but I just don't see him playing that many snaps.

You are proving yourself to be a bombastic idiot. Getting the players you have rated highly and not worrying about a guy you have rated lower is incompetent? How does that line of thinking impugn the Moeaki selection? I believe this falls under the "go get him" part of the thinking.

There, fixed it for ya.

How are going to get McCluster on the field on two of three downs, when you also have the people who are defending the Moeaki pick the most are telling us that Weis uses a lot of two tight end sets?

Hell, zilla, in the same thread, said that McCluster would be an every down player at the same time he was telling us that Weis uses two tight end sets as one of his base formations.