No question.

I just am pointing out that a mid First may not return a "Franchise QB..."

and many teams have won without one...

What round was Trent Green selected?

Favre was picked 33rd, which would be considered the 1st pick in the 2nd round now a days.

Brees was picked 32nd, which would be considered the last pick in the 1st round now.

Brady was picked when the Pats already had a QB, picked in the first, starting.

So by all means, let's get the next Drew Bledsoe...


.........

or...

maybe not...

If anything, Chiefs fans are not obsessed enough with getting a potentially elite QB prospect.

The success rate of first round QBs is higher than all other rounds combined.

WTF: That's like saying fans of HIMYM aren't obsessed enough with the identity of Ted's kids' mother. Debating for die-hards can be fun, but demanding a level of obsession from the fanbase regarding something totally out their control is just stupid.

League Ranks for the last several Super Bowl teams

Passing:

Colts: 2
Saints: 4

Arizona: 2
Pittsburgh: 17

Green Bay: 5
Pittsburgh: 14 (but were 27th in attempts, FWIW)

Average passing rank of Super Bowl teams ~ 7.5, but 3.25 for non-Steeler teams.

depends on what question you are looking to answer.

imo Orton has always been underrated ... I would of jumped all over trading Cassel to Denver and getting Orton and a draft pick in some 3-way trade back with McDaniels was getting rid of Cutler.

so if the question is 'can Orton be a decent starter to used while you look for a QBotF?" Then Orton probably can be the answer.

if the question is "Is Orton an elite franchise quarterback?" Then no, he's not.

Cassel is so shitty that he makes Orton look like a viable option.

The reason this team hasn't won jack in so many years isn't because we don't draft QB's in the first round, it's because the people who have been running the organization have shown NO ABILITY to actually evaluate the QB position.

What does Carl do? Steve Bono. Elvis Grbac. Before they signed Grbac, they strongly considered signing Heath Shuler, but passed because his foot was injured. He has an NFL MVP sitting on the roster backing up Grbac, who he lets walk. He trades a first rounder for Trent Green, who to me is the epitome of decent but not great QB who was handed Priest Holmes, Tony G, and probably the best offensive line of the decade in the NFL. Then you have Huard, and Croyle. He was reportedly salivating at the idea of drafting Joey Harrington had Detroit not taken him. He may have pounced on Brady Quinn had Cleveland not jumped in front of us to take him. Had he drafted either of those guys in round 1, we still wouldn't be celebrating a championship here.

Before that, this organization famously passes on Marino to take Blackledge.

Hell, this organization is lucky that Len Dawson couldn't cut it with two NFL teams before arriving here.

Would we have really been that much better had we drafted Sanchez or Freeman in 2009? Perhaps, but more likely we'd be complaining about Sanchez (wouldn't have the Jets defense playing behind him, Rex still has a leash on him) or Freeman (badly regressed this year) not justifying getting drafted at 3. Does drafting Jimmy Clausen get us any closer to the promised land? Not likely.

I really don't care how this organization finds a QB, we just need someone who can actually EVALUATE a QB. And we need some good luck for a change. I don't care if the guy is a third round pick or a fifth round pick (Montana, Brady). I don't care if we trade another organization for his rights (Favre). I don't care if he's a street free agent (Warner). I don't care if it's just some guy who is there mid first round because it is a stacked year for QB's (Big Ben) or if he's a guy who free falls to you (Rodgers) or if he's a free agent (Brees). We just need someone in the organization who for once will evaluate that position properly, and who will go out and get that guy. I don't care where it is.

To me, it's not going to cut it if we just draft a guy in the first round. If that guy turns out to be David Carr, or JaMarcus Russell, or Ryan Leaf, or Harrington, or Quinn, or anyone who is no better than Cassel or Orton, then it's not going to cut it. It's not going to cut it to be the Bengals and keep drafting QB's high and hoping they'll lead me to the promised land. That person would need to be fired.

In regards to Orton, I see him much like I see Cassel. 70 starts, and they've both proven they're inconsistent. We've spent three years looking at Cassel and arguing whether or not he'd perform better if he had a better supporting cast. Now we're looking at Orton and wondering if he'd do better with this supporting cast than he did in Chicago or Denver. So to me, it's the same thing. Both guys have proven that they are streaky, and that they don't elevate anyone's games. They can perform well if given all day to throw, which in many cases Orton had against Green Bay. The only reason to go Orton over Cassel is that Orton plays the position more naturally, while Cassel is very mechanical and needs everything to go right on a play to make it work. Hoping that Orton will be any better than what he is is like hoping that the light goes on for Cassel. It probably won't happen. Even if Orton finishes strong this year and comes back next year, the most likely scenario is that next year we'll be complaining about the things that Orton doesn't do well...

Tom Brady was picked up by the Pats in the 6th round, 199th pick overall - a compensatory pick. They didn't grab him because they were looking for a "QB of the Future" (they were satisfied with Drew Bledsoe as their starter) but more because they couldn't believe that he'd fallen that far in the draft. Brady was a damned good QB at Michigan. For a compensatory pick in the 6th, Brady was an absolute STEAL. Low (virtually NO) risk, high reward.

this

They have shown NO ABILITY to develop/handle the QB position either.

3 yrds and a cloud of dust is NOT QB friendly

Yelling at your QB every day about how "not turning the ball over is the top priority" is not QB friendly

RRPP is NOT QB friendly

I wanted no part of Haley developing a QBoTF and that goes for Muir either. We must get a quality OC who can install a viable offensive system and develop a young QB with that system.

I'm a firm believer in that coaching can kill most young QB's. You flip-flop the team selection on many QB's and their futures can end up very different. Very few 'can't miss' quarterbacks.

NFL is all about being able to pass the ball now. Having said, the reason we lost to Indy in 2003 had nothing to do with QB play. From 2002-2005, we had the #1 or 2 offense in the league every year, and didn't do anything. That simply, is unprecedented. It's much harder to build a super offense like we did in that era, based around a fantastic line and a Kyle Orton-like QB than simply having Big Ben or Brady back there.

You really need to stop beating the Brady drum. The guy was a once in history type of pick. It won't be happening again, not with the way players are being scouted.

Just pay attention to the odds. Look at what's been posted in this thread.

Yes, please show me what other qbs have a 27 touchdown to 7 interception ratio. Regardless of his yards, Cassel got 27 passing tds. The run certainly helped him. How many attempts did Cassel have?

Even if it was a magical season, it means shit now. It was a false indicator of his ability.

Derek Anderson once threw for 29 TDs and 3800 yards. MAGICAL! He's back in the shitter these days.

Sunday's game was a blast, very fun to watch. I was really happy for Orton, Crennel and the rest of the Chiefs for that matter. It was fun, not only to watch the win, but to watch those guys enjoy themselves and fight for each other after a really tough week on them I'm sure. I have heard guys say, "we've got our guy" and "no way, draft a guy". This is a wait and see deal and nobody that really counts cares about anybody on here's opinion. This could be a fit. I was not a big Orton or Crennel guy, but have been impressed over the last week. I do believe that Orton could be much better than I or most guys on here have given him credit to be. He's really had no weapons. We'll see.

funny how some people leave out things that are kinda important when comparing two somewhat like situations...


anderson also threw 19 INTS that magical season.

One thing I'm sure of is that Cassel needs to restructure his contract and resign to being a quality back up or be traded. But Scott hasn't called me yet to ask me my opinion. I don't know what his deal is.

Did we ever stop to think that maybe the fact that they haven't drafted a 1st round QB is an indicator that they haven't properly evaluated the position and we shouldn't use their inability to evaluate as justification for not taking one.

Who gives a shit?

If Cassel had thrown 29/3800 people on here would still be lauding that season as magical.

not with 19 INTS. that should have told people what was going on...

Matt also had the top running game,a rb avg near 7ypc, and still only threw for close to 3000 yds.


out of those 27 Td I bet 12 were inside the 5 on short throws

30th in the ****ing league should have told people what was going on with Cassel.

wasn't the passing game ranked like 30 in the league?


And that with the best running game in the league and 8 in the box

Ahhhhh, somebody with good sense.

Good job Dawolf! It's so true what you are saying.

Your right...it really comes down to evaluation at the end of the day. There are so many qbs that have been selected out of the first round.

And I believe it also has to do with KC making bad personnel decisions on top ala Grbac over Gannon as an example.

Congratulations, true fan.

Sincerely,

Aaron Rodgers
Peyton Manning
Eli Manning
Ben Roethlisburger

No, but 12 of his TD's were from inside the 9. 10 from inside the 6.


He had 2 from 1 yard out.

3 from 2 yards out.

1 from 3 yards out.

2 from 5 yards out.

2 from 6 yards out.

1 from 7 yards out.

1 from 9 yards out.

You are only justified in taking one if you evaluate the guy properly. For example, if I am a QB starved organization, and I allow myself to drool over JaMarcus Russel's workout and draft him No 1 overall instead of Calvin Johnsnon, just because I feel the need to draft a QB in the first round and want to roll the dice, and get intoxicated with visions of JaMarcus leading my franchise for the next decade because of all of his physical tools, then I should lose my job. You are better off with Kyle Orton/Calvin Johnson than you are with Russell.

Again, this is not to say you don't take a guy in the first round, it is to say that when you do, or when you trade your entire draft for one, you better be sure that guy is gonna be the difference maker between being an OK team and being a Super Bowl contender. Otherwise you've just set your franchise back another 3-5 years and wasted a first.

Easier said than done of course, QB is a tough position to project from college to NFL. But that guy better be worth that pick. If I have the ability to trade up for Andrew Luck, or if I have a conviction about RGIII, do I go out and try to make it happen? Yeah. But if I am not in a position to take those guys, do I draft Landry Jones because he's there? Not if I am not sold on Landry Jones being a SIGNIFICANT upgrade over who I have at this level, and not if there is a better player available that will also help my team. I mean, I'm not going to sit here and give Jacksonville props for drafting and whiffing on Gabbert because they at least tried to replace Gerrard. They got it wrong, and set their franchise further back. In my book, you don't get brownie points for trying, you better do it right...

"Screw you"

Sincerely,

Kurt Warner

Someone needs to post the "60% of SBs have been won by 1st-round QBs" thing again.

I should just keep that permentaly on paste on my computer.

He was basically an undrafted free agent. They used to run 12 round drafts back in the day and he was selected well past the 7th round.

8th round

How about these facts:

57% of the Super Bowls have been won by first round quarterbacks.
(Out of those quarterbacks only 3 were not top 10 picks)
40% of the Super Bowls won by top 5 picks.
21% have been won by 1st round quarterbacks that wasnt their original team (Dawson, Plunkett (2), Williams, Young, Dilfer)
16% of the Super Bowls were won by Montana and Brady
4% were Roger Staubuach's wins who would have went in the first if he wasnt going to Vietnam
14% were won by a 9th or lower (counting Warner who was Undrafted) and 4 of those wins were by Bart Starr & Roger Staubauch.
4% were won by second round quarterbacks
4% 3rd and 6th rounds picks that were not Montana or Brady
0% of the Super Bowls were won by a 7th round pick
__________________

"21% have been won by 1st round quarterbacks that wasnt their original team (Dawson, Plunkett (2), Williams, Young, Dilfer)"



BINGO!!!

The team that Drafts a First Round QB better have a good supporting cast.

If that is not the case, fix the supporting cast first...

Where do you suggest we get a former 1st-round QB, jackass?

Rather, the point is that a lot of good QBs go to shitty teams and then get canned.

The Bucs were awesome.

The Bucs were losing. Obviously it was all QB Steve Young's fault. Solution, dump Steve on those stupid Niners and Draft Vinnie Testaverde...

Several years later, Vinne is the Bucs problem. Solution, dump Vinne, and Draft Trent Dilfer...

Then Dilfer was the problem... dump him!!!

Sign BRAD JOHNSON... and win a Super Bowl...


Got that, jackass???

Settling for Orton as the starting QB for the future would be a typical Chiefs move. Orton is potentially good enough to win 8-9, maybe 10 games for the Chiefs, but he'll never lead the Chiefs to a Super Bowl.

The Chiefs must draft a franchise QB.

Stop settling for journeyman QBs, back-up QBs with alleged potential, etc.

"Stop settling on journeyman QBs"

Yeah, like Plunkett, Kurt Warner, Steve young...

Where are we getting a former 1st-round QB?

Please point out the available ones we should acquire.

I don't care what round the FA QB was Drafted. I care what he is as a player.

Right now, roughly half of NFL teams need QB upgrades. I wish I had a good answer. QB is the NFL's "shortage" position.

Also, QB has the steepest "learning curve" of any position, which is why so many First Round QBs ended up winning the SB with another team.

The Chiefs need an upgrade at QB, no question. I just don't think the ONLY WAY to cure that is "spending the First on one..."

True. It's only the most likely way.

16th overall

With the Chiefs being in the top 8 in throws over 40 yards.
Middle of the road in sacks at 39
O line pass blocking ranking 25th
Completion percentage at 55%. Only the Raiders were worse. However, we
-were 1st in the league in dropped passes.


http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta..._PASSER_RATING

If you look at the numbers you'll see Cassels numbers were middle of the pack or better with the exception of completion pertcentage. He was also one of the best red zone QBs in the league.

Does that mean he's great QB? Of course not. But it does say he made the team better instead of worse. The O iine was the worst unit on the team, and almost the worst in the league.

This will translate into poor play for anyone behind center. Especially a rook.

Now before everyone goes off the deep end, Im not saying I wouldn't want a new QB. I would love the prospect of developing our own. What I am saying though is regardless who you get, with the current O line expect that QB to produce at a mediocre to bottom of the league level.

Also people need to quit blaming everything that goes wrong on the QB. For god sake there are other positions on the team. He grades out as mediocre to slightly above average in nearly every category. Which I agree is not good enough. However, the O line grades out as one of the worst in the game. You can spin it any way you want, but the numbers tell a story that are in line with what I see on the field every Sunday.

We have a terrible O line with a mediocre to slightly above average QB. You put a rookie back there and he's liable to look more like David Carr than Andy Dalton. QB is only a fraction of the answer for the Chiefs.

This is just my opinion based on the numbers, and what I see. Try not to get too bent out of shape over it.

LMAO

What?

Cassel was 24th in yards per game.

As it's been proven all year long, we really don't. We had an excellent game Sunday and on the year are ranked in the top 10 in pass blocking efficiency.

Cassel is our biggest problem.

His last 11 games are complete dogshit and nowhere near "mediocre."

56% completion percentage
1,898 yards
5.9 yards per attempt
10 TD
14 INT
65.9 QB rating

I would think that knowing your limitations in evaluating the QB position would be a great justification for not taking one.

That said, you need to start going after the source of the problem AND FIND someone who can evaluate QB's instead of running from the problem and avoiding it.

Terrible OL? Did you watch the game Sunday? Looked to me like Orton had all day back there.

Couple thoughts:

First, how can some of you guys still think Cassel is a serviceable QB after Orton embarrassed him on Sunday? Orton was far more in command in his first start than Cassel EVER was.

Second, why is NFL QB scouting so bad? I hear all this talk about how good TJ Yates is and will be. Well then, why the **** was he a 5th round draft pick? Obviously, in a re-draft, he'd be taken much higher, but why did he fall in the first place?

Cassel 25th in rating (76.6), 28th in YPA (6.37), 28th in yards per game (190), 20th in completion % (59.5).

When's the last time you had your eyes checked?

LMAO And you are still clueless about football.

My agenda colored glasses are broken. That and I am not compelled to argue all the time. It makes for a more accurate point of view. A more enjoyable experience on Sundays and a lower post count. In a word......open minded. Okay, two words.

How so? What do you disagree with. That we need a new QB? Or the O line needs imrovement?

Your rebuttal was a little vague

Im sorry. I was basing it on more than one game. Also left a link up so you could look at the numbers for yourself. I recommend you check out how each lineman grades out as well.

You dont have to take my word for it. The proof is easy to find (if youre willing to see it). Some are so invested in tyhier opinion, the obvious has become a rare affair.

I don't really care about whatever numbers you provided.

I don't understand how you can watch Cassel and reach the conclusion he isn't among the worst in the league, especially after seeing how much better a mediocre QB performed, and how much better the O-Line performed with that mediocre QB.

The numbers I used were from 2010. Those are that is what the arguements in this thread were based on. Hid comp% was lower and he had his run game and the line played better. This line wouldnt place 25th this season. It would be lower Im sure. He was 25th in rating then too. 16th yards per game.

We need a better QB no matter how you slice it.

With all this bullshit talk about Orton crumbling in the redzone, if all our plays were running Battle on the diagonal after getting there, we would have had 4-11 more points than last game.

for 2010 he was 24th in YPG (207.7), 8th in passing rating (93.0).

There are variables. Besides, Im not sure where you read that I said he was a good QB. But I didnt. I did say he made the team better than the O line graded out.

Play calling was much different in the last game. Downfield passes were thrown. We didnt go into a shell with a 3 point lead. Those were also reasons for our success. However, that line couldnt get us in the end zone from the 5 on 4 occasions.

If you had better reading skills and werent soooooo invested in the Cassel BS around here, you would see that I agree that we need a new Qb. Just not willing to say he's the only thing wrong with the offense. Blaming all our problems on one guy is just lazy and shows little football knowledge.

Did you notice we had a different coach on Sunday too? Yes. Things looked a little different.

This!

Not according to the nfl.com link I posted. But okay.

The O-Line graded out so poorly because Matt Cassel is a terrible QB.

He hold the ball to long, delivers it late and inaccurately.

We went downfield in this game because Orton, a mediocre QB, at best, can actually make reads and make the throws.

If Cassel's first read downfield isn't open, he either dumps it off to his safety valve, or holds the ball and takes a sack or runs from pressure.

If orton is the answer what is the question

Uh huh.

He probably gives Brandon Albert the wrong snap count once or twice a game just to draw attention away from himself.

I hear he leaves the toilet seat up too.

That mother****er is no good on any level.

You're kind of a one trick pony, aint ya?

Good night.

Be weary of looking at Orton's 2010 stats. 25 percent was garbage time stats.

After McDaniels got done with that roster, all time was garbage time.

Now it's Tebow time.

Same difference.

The O-line graded poorly because of micro-managing, clueless, head-coaching. Haley's off-the-cuff actions, without any half-time adjustments, got him canned. The O-line stats, he can glue with shit, in his scrapbook.

Good God, man. Learn a little about pre-snap adjustments and a QB that can actually read a D.

Do a quick search of O-line play throughout the league, you'll find that teams with good QBs have fewer false start penalties than teams with bad QBs.

So, yes, Cassel does have an affect.

I agree,your right.Ortons everything you need in a qb,screw all you that disagree

I don't need any ****ing numbers to tell me Orton played better Sunday than Cassel has EVER played as a Chief.

How many times was Orton sacked?

Of course is! That's why he's on his third team.

I think the Rams should cut Bradford ... i'm mean he is doing such a shitty job of making everyone else around him better.

McDaniels - shitty coaching should be handled by Bradford
Shitty Oline - no excuse, Mr. Bradford
crappy WR's - throw it better
shitty Defense - scored more points

I bet it hasn't even occured to you that the "drafturbators" that believed that Bradford wasn't all that were actually right?

Orton is da man! He finally has the weapons and coach to be successful.

See what I mean? You have been sooooo invested in the Cassel rhetoric around here you dont even realize how stupid it is to blame the QB for Albert to jump 1-2 times a game. Why dont the rest of them jump as often if its all Cassels fault?

Man, you been cryin so long you forgot you had to make sense. How am I supposed to take that shit seriously?

So what are you trying to say, we could use a better QB? I belive we already agree on that. But you're gonna have trouble convincing me that the o linemen themselves aren't responsible for jumping. Its a lack of discipline on the o linemean. Not tyhe QBLMAO damn

Laz always has to be butthurt over something, everybody blaming Cassel is his new butthurt thing.

He has got to be the biggest bitch here.