One reason I wouldn't mind to keep Orton is that he does chuck it down field. I could stand more INTs if it's from him being aggressive down the field.


I think Baldwin would benefit alot from Orton.

Just because a guy looks open to us, doesn't mean he was open. I've seen CP do this several times, blaming Cassel for not spotting the open man, and in many cases, they're dead wrong. If CP members saw him wide open... no offense to people here, but I know people hate Cassel enough that they will often see things the way they want to see them... I'm skeptical. I don't know if defenses know Cassel isn't going to look their way, so they back off Bowe. I don't know if they pull away from Bowe because they know Cassel's about to get rid of the ball. I don't know if the read is that there is clear help defense in a place we don't anticipate it--I don't know how many times I've heard CP complain about missing a wide open man, when there's clearly a deep safety off the screen that would eat a pass alive.

Again, I'm not saying he's good or bad in these situations. I'm saying we just don't know. Yes, I think he'll be better with a much better QB. But the big game stuff... we just don't know yet if he's good enough to consistently beat elite corners and defenses when they're keying in on him. DJ's Left Nut points out very good reasons why he probably won't do it as well as an elite receiver would.

Again, I'd pay him the moon. But let's be realistic about what kind of player he really is.

Just ask yourself this zilla, if you put Cassel with Fitz or Megatron, would they put up the numbers they do now?


I think Bowe is a great wr, but a record setting guy I don't see it like Boss does.

I also don't know why Bowe has to be a top 3 guy. Is there anything wrong with having a top 6 or 7 wr in the league?

I agree that you are saying he hasn't done it in big games, but for me a wr is only as good as the quarterback given him. I would like to see what Bowe and Baldwin could do with Orton.

No, they are not proof.

The best tacklers in the league often come from the worst defenses, because they can't get off the field. Mike Maslowski was a tackling machine for a horrible Chiefs' defense. Kyle Orton was one of the most productive passers in the league two years ago. Terrell Davis is one of the most productive single-season rushers of all time, and Denver always had bad RBs run for over 1,000 yards.

None of those guys are elite. Yes, you have to be pretty good to get past a certain level of production. But when you're trying to compare Bowe to Fitzgerald or Andre Johnson, it's pretty damn important to understand how they're getting yards rather than whether they're getting the same number of yards.

Screw the Patriot Way, this is the Wal-Mart way, like they practice across the parking lot. Now we just have it with both teams. Awesome.

No, I never said he has to be top 3. I'm saying pay the guy. I'm just puzzled that people are so convinced that he's an elite receiver in this league or that he's going to shatter records. Again... the key for me is not stats or where he ranks. I want to know if he's a guy who will make big plays and can put together 3-4 straight badass playoff performances, even if elite defenses and corners get in your way. We just don't know that yet.

Yes, I believe Fitzgerald and Megatron could make bad Quarterbacks good in ways Bowe does not. They are more athletic, they are much quicker... these guys are just fine even as jumpball receivers--you just throw the ball up, and these guys are going to find a way to catch it. Fitzgerald had terrific production last season, by the way, around a shaky QB situation.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Orton and better talent around him makes the offense better, but it's probably going to make Bowe less productive. Charles is going to eat up a lot of yards. And Orton is going to spread the ball around.

The most talented WR in NFL history with arguably the most prolific QB in NFL history only managed 23.

Dwayne Bowe is no Randy Moss. Dwayne Bowe is no Calvin Johnson - he doesn't have his speed, size or hands (in fact, I think CJ is even stronger than Bowe).

C'mon - I know you're trying to extrapolate that 15 TD season into something more than it was, but that was his apex. Bowe simply isn't as 'open' as often as you think he is. He isn't one of the 10 greatest WRs in NFL history.

I ask again - what does he actually do that makes you think he's capable of putting himself alongside Calvin Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald, let alone Randy Moss and Jerry Rice. He simply does not have the physical skills that those guys have/had.

On gameday he puts on a Chiefs uniform.... for now.

I agree about the playoff thing.

I don't think Bowe is at that level. I don't think he's maxed out yet. We just don't know for sure yet what he would be as the guy has put up really good number with shit at qb.

I think he could be a top 5 or 6 wr for the next 5 years. I think you have a better chance to win a SB by having 3 or 4 guys that are really good than having 1 superstar and 2 or 3 JAGs. I think a group of Bowe, Baldwin, Breaston and one more really solid wr is more than enough weapons at wr.

I'd sign the guy.

So you are a fan of getting a new owner and cleaning out the front office right?:hmmm:

While its true that most stats can be spun either way, that doesnt tell the whole story about Bowe imo.

Who's the truly elite WR who has made more with less over the last 5 years? maybe Andre Johnson until Schaub arrived? Some say Bowes being force fed the ball, which is true, but cant that be said for Fitzgerald the last two years?

What i'm saying, is compare the consensus elite guys against the situations Bowe has had to endure... he SHINED with fricking Damon Huard for cripe pete, put Bowe in a stable environment with a starter quality qb & he's going to give you top 5 numbers.

Bowe is gonna put up good to great number because that's what he is. A good to great wr. We don't need the top wr in the league to win a SB.


I don't think he can ever be in the class of those top 3 guys, simply becasue they are that talented. It's not a knock on Bowe, but a compliment to those guys.

I think you have to throw Fitzgerald and Calvin Johnson out of the discussion.

They are clearly the elite receivers in this league right now.

But anyone that argues that a better QB wouldn't have an impact on DBowe's production is a ****ing moron (I'm looking directly at you Chiefzilla).

Andre Johnson had a couple of good games against the Bengals and Ravens, but he, in no way, shape, or form, took over either of those games and beasted the way that Fitzgerald did in the Cards SB run in '06.

TJ Yates.

Kurt Warner.

QBs make a difference.

And Fitzgerald has been almost exactly 10% better than Bowe the last 2 years.

2300 yds vs. 2550

153 catches vs 170

Bowe has more TDs, but I think it's time to start looking at that TD stat for what it was - the outlier.

Think about it - if you take those 15 and make them, I dunno - 10, then he had 80 catches for 1,100 yards and 10 TDs. In other words - just a pretty nice season. And then last year he'd have done the same thing. So at the apex of his career, he would've been an 75 catch, 1100 yard, 7-10 TD/season guy.

Those are all very good numbers, but Fitz is better than those by about 10% with a QB situation that has been every bit as bad as Bowes. And when Fitz had a legitimate HOF quarterback in Warner, was he challenging 20 TDs? Nope, not even close. Fitz is a better wideout than Bowe, I don't see that as open for discussion. And with one of the best pure passers of his generation at the helm, he didn't 'approach single season records'.

People are overstating a QBs impact on an individual #1 WRs numbers. The massive benefit of an elite quarterback is not that he makes 1 WRs numbers better, but that he knows so much more about what is going on that he makes every player on the field a legitimate weapon. Sure, there are going to be times that Manning sees Bowe open when Cassel wouldn't have. Then again, there are going to be times that he sees Breaston as 'more' open than Bowe was and throws the ball to Breason when Cassel would have forced it into Bowe.

History doesn't lie here. Aaron Rodgers would make Baldwin and Breaston significantly more valuable, but he wouldn't create a massive leap in Bowe's numbers.

Because we are going after drew brees duh

Just read on Insider that the Jets might dump Dustin Keller.


Interested?

When did I ever say a new QB doesn't make Bowe better? People here are acting like a good QB is holding Bowe back from being an elite receiver. It's not. He is physically limited from being elite, probably. Yes, a good QB is probably holding him back from being a better receiver. I'm saying that right now, nobody knows yes or no if he's a clutch WR (we'll find out when we get a new QB). I'm saying he doesn't have the insane trade value people think he has. And I'm saying he doesn't stack up to elite WRs.

As for productivity... this is driving me a little crazy too because it's driven by stats. Getting a new QB doesn't guarantee productivity statwise. In fact, Rodgers, Brees, and Brady spread the ball around so much that each player is going to touch the ball a little bit less.

As for Fitz and Johnson... you're absolutely wrong on this. You can't blame Andre Johnson for not producing behind TJ Yates, given that he was battling hamstring injuries all season. He was never really 100%. And Larry Fitzgerald had a sprained knee a few years ago and QBs that were a million times worse than Cassel the year after. But Fitzgerald had an incredibly productive season last year behind Kolb and Skelton.

Calvin Johnson 2010

1120 yards
12 tds

Calvin Johnson 2011

1681 yards
16 tds

What was the difference?

Im saying that if we could get a legit guy like that to throw him the ball, I have no doubts he could put up HUGE numbers because he has shown the ability to put up very impressive numbers with the jokers he has had at quarterback.

If Bowe can catch 15 with Cassel, I think he could add 4-5 more with a legit guy.

I understand there are gonna be some that don't agree with that.

I don't think he would put up that much more Boss in that with a better qb he won't get as many targets.

Its not all about targets.

Its about ball placement so that our guy can make the catch in stride.

I think people are misunderstanding what Im saying or Im doing a poor job of what Im trying to say.

I think that Bowes peak season with a legit guy would be 18-20 tds in a year...not that he would in any way average that figure.

Bowe caught 15 TDs because of Charles.

Statistically speaking, nothing else from Bowe changed other than the TDs. His catches were down from career highs and his yards were virtually the same.

Bowe caught 15 TDs because the Chiefs were successfully running the ball and Bowe was the only receiver on the team for RZ catches.

A quality QB is going to look at more than just Bowe now that we have Breaston and Baldwin.

Don't know a lot about Keller specifically. He would need to be a good blocker to add depth at a position we could really use it.

Nice post, but lets take Reggie Wayne as an example...

2010 - 16gp 111rec 1355yds 6td

2011 - 16gp 75rec 960yds 4td

The thing is, if he gets the ball accurately and on time, while his receptions may not go up substantially, his YAC should increase.

And the thing is, with the crap throwing Fitzgerald the ball in 2010, he caught 90 balls for 1137 yards.

In 2011, with better QB play (yes Kolb was better, and Skelton was improved substantially from his rookie season), he caught 10 fewre balls, but for 1411 yards.

A QB that can deliver the ball does make a difference.

And even as bad as the Cards were at QB in 2010, they still attempted nearly 100 more passes than the Chiefs.

Matt Stafford threw 25 touchdowns to receivers that arent named Calvin.

Calvin had 16

The weapons are here for a quarterback to have a huge year and Bowe would probably get the cream.

The talent gap from Johnson to Burleson is a lot bigger than Bowe to Baldwin/Breaston.

One could argue that Baldwin would become the primary RZ target.

It really is depressing knowing we have all this cap space that we could afford to trade our draft for RG3, but there is no chance we will

Matt Cassel threw 12 touchdowns to receivers not named Bowe in 2010, and the talent gap between Bowe and whatever scrub was #2 at any given time in that season was Christy Morgan sized chasm.

OK, but the Manning to Painter drop off is far from typical. Not only did he go from one of the best all time to a QB that's weak even by back up standards but Manning also had particularly strong effect on the entire way that offense was run.

Frankly, I'm stunned Wayne's 2011 numbers were as good as they were.

He's talking about WRs only, at least I hope so. Because 16+9 does not = 41.

If it's even possible, Derek Anderson is worse than Tyler Palko. Derek Anderson's passes were literally gunned 10 yards over receivers' heads. Not even Randy Moss could have caught the shit Anderson was throwing.

But that's just a side point. Look, we're arguing about the same thing. You already said we have to take Fitzgerald and Megatron out of the argument. Fitzerald's 1,300+ yards behind QBs worse than Cassel is a testament to how good he is and that hs is in a league above Bowe's. So while Bowe will get better, there's definitely a ceiling, because he just isin't as physically gifted as Fitzgerald.

16+25=41.

He said that Stafford threw 25 TDs to receivers not namd Calvin Johnson.

Read it wrong, my bad.

I thought he was trying to make a point that Johnson still got the majority of TDs among the WRs with a quality QB.

WTF are you talking about?

Fitzgerald only had 1137 yards with QBs that are arguably worse than Cassel.

Kolb and Skelton last year are better than Cassel.

Again, we can't trade for RG3 because we don't have the ammo.

The only picks that matter are our first round picks. And Cleveland's are better. And their future first rounders are probably perceived to be better too.

We are coming up with some pretty unreasonable scenarios for how we can get him.

You guys don't think Bowe would have had more touchdowns in 2010 if Matt Cassel wasn't his quarterback?

Seriously?

that was him as the only target to throw to besides Moeaki.

If defenses have to respect our other receivers, Moeaki, and we had a better quarterback throwing him the ball, he would had a lot more scores.

I dont know how someone could think otherwise, but who knows?

We won't know until we see what the final trade price was.

Does Bowe have to be at the Megatron level for us to win a SB?

No.

He wants Holmes money, pay him Holmes money. Lets move on to getting more pieces to build this team.

C'mon, I know you're better than this. I hate Cassel, but he's a serviceable starter / high quality backup. If Kolb and Skelton are any better than Cassel, it's by a hair. Not the kind that accounts for the 200 yard difference. And the 2010 QBs were "arguably" worse than Cassel? Derek Anderson and Max Hall aren't even good enough to be 3rd stringers, let alone starters. They are Tyler Palko bad. I think you need to rewind back to the Chiefs/Cardinals game two years ago where Derek Anderson was throwing the ball 10 yards over the receivers' heads on every single pass.

What are you arguing about? Didn't you already acknowledge that we shouldn't be comparing Bowe to Fitzgerald?

He probably would have. But not for the right reasons. He would have had more TDs than the average receiver because the Chiefs didn't have a goal line RB or a whole lot of red zone options outside of Bowe to throw to. I'm sure if Megatron or Fitzgerald were targeted in that same way, they'd have monster seasons too.

It doesn't mean I think he can do it again in 2012 if the Chiefs get a better QB and a goal line back, and I find it hard to believe they won't do both. I'm pretty sure Bowe is going to get a lot less red zone / goal line looks.

A TD is a TD. Quit making excuses dude. They are all earned.

I'm arguing the fact that you say that Bowe is not a receiver that can take over games in the playoffs.

When the QB has more than one option in the passing game, a receiver can take over a game.

When a QB has only one real option in the passing game, that reciver can be neutralized.

When a limited QB has only one optinon in the passing game, that receiver can be taken from the game completely.

And no, Cassel is not appreciably better than Derek Anderson and a rookie Max Hall.

Cassel is inaccurate, can not throw intermediate and deep balls, and can not read a defense, and he wilts under fake pressure.

Other than he's a hell of a QB.

And yes, Kolb and Skelton were better than Cassel, and it isn't even debatable.

I know we all hate Cassel, but this is wrong.

I don't think Kolb is better than Cassel, but I agree with him on Skelton.

I never said Bowe is or isn't a playoff or big game WR. I'm saying to this date, we have no evidence that he is. Which means that we are making a BIG assumption that a better QB fixes it. It's very possible that even with a good QB, we find he gets shut down by elite defenses. We won't find out either way until we make a QB switch.

And you are ridiculously exaggerating how bad Cassel is. Like I said, he is a top-tier backup, serviceable starter at best. You're undermining your credibility if you truly, actually believe Anderson or Hall or anywhere NEAR Cassel's level. C'mon, man. Anderson is barely hanging on to an NFL roster, let alone competing for backup QB. Cassel is without a doubt a quality backup at the very least.

Cassel isn't as bad as you want to suggest he is, and Kolb/Skelton didn't do anything impressive that leads you to believe they're much better. If there's any difference right now between him and Kolb, it's not by very much, though I think Kolb's arrow will go up with experience. Skelton... same deal.

I really didn't see Skelton play very much. I went and looked at his stats and they're not impressive. He's started a total of 11 games over his first two seasons. I think I'd need to see him for a full year, because Elvis Grbac looked really impressive when he had 5 starts for the 49ers.

Last season, Kolb and Skelton each started 8 games, and each had more 200 yard passing games in their respective 8 starts than Matt Cassel had in his 15 starts in 2010.

Skelton had two really bad games, one with 99 yards, the other with 115 yards.

He really played really well down the stretch in leading the Cardinals to 3 wins in their last 4 games, including a win against the 9ers.

Kid has upside.

Kevin Kolb had a single game in which he passed for fewer than 200 yards, a 153 yard game against the Ravens.

The Cardinals gave up too much for him, and he likely will not be starting in a couple of years, but he's still better than Cassel, and so is Skelton.

Derek Anderson is bad, no question.

But his problem lies in the fact that he's terribly inaccurate, even moreso than Cassel.

But he doesn't wilt under pressure, and he can read a defense.

So, yes, he's better than Cassel.

But had less yards to show for it despite having 11 more receptions.

And Fitzgerald had fewer yards and more receptions than Bowe.

I guess that means that Bowe is better, right?

Derek Anderson might be the worst QB ever when it comes to staring down WR's.

No.

That would be David Carr.

Sounds like you're basing your opinion on passing yards per game. I don't know if that tells you much. Cassel has the second most passing yards in a single game in Chiefs history.

Skelton and Kolb might be better than Cassel, (although, I doubt it with Kolb) but it's early to say it isn't debatable.

I'm basing it more on what I've seen, and providing numbers that speak to a measure of consistency that Cassel has lacked from the first game he stepped on the field for the Patriots, and more to his lack of consistency as a Chief, where he has been asked to do more than Josh McDaniels asked of him in New England.

Both Kolb and Skelton played more consistently, and better than Cassel

Not a big enough sample size to judge. I'd want to see a full season of starts.

You said yourself Skelton had a few down games.

This isn't about how they'll perform next year, or the season after.

This is about the fact that they provided more consistent QB play in 2011 than Matt Cassel has provided at any time since he began his career as a starter, including 2010.

But Skelton hasn't started a full season yet, not even half. I've seen Kolb play as bad as Cassle on his worst day before. Like I said, for five games in 1996, Grbac looked unstoppable.

How can you say someone is more consistent when they haven't played nearly as many games?

I said they were more consistent in their 8 starts.

I didn't say that they will always be more consistent.

But in the games they played, they were more consistent than Matt Cassel has been in any stretch in his career.

In that 8 game stretch Skelton was 6-2, with two games against the 49ers, Cleveland and Seattle. He threw 13 TDs and 16 INTs. He had two games over 300 yds, and four games over 200. He had one game with a QB rating over 100.

A 8 game stretch in 2010 Cassel was 5-3 against some bad teams. He threw 19 TDs and 1 INT. He had one game with over 400 yds, and three games over 200. He had five games with over a 100 QB rating.

Did he win that game where he threw for over 400 yards?*

If you are going to spew shit....please spew all of it.


*Garbage time.

No he didn't. Cassel gave up those 49 point all by himself.

In 2008 he had a 8 game stretch where he went 6-2. Threw 14 TDs and 4 INTs. Had 2 games with over 400 yds passing, 1 with over 300, and 3 over 200 yds. He had 5 games with over a 100 QB rating.

I'm not a cassel fan, but the hate has made people say silly things.

I guess we just need Moss and Welker on the team so they can rack up 60% of Cassels yards after the catch.

I guess all we need to do is make sure Cassel plays all of his games against weak opponents, or from the spread with the most talented receivers in the league.

We can make him a franchise QB yet!

I was just posting those stats because you said Skelton had a better 8 game stretch than Cassel has ever had. Yeah the Chiefs played crappy teams, the Cards had some cupcakes during Skelton's 8 games as well, but I guess when you beat crappy teams you must not be crappy.

I don't know what we're arguing about.

Neither Skelton nor Cassel are very good QBs right now. I don't think it matters which one is shit and which one is deluxe shit.

Skelton also had a good game against the 9ers, not a crappy team, and as I said, I used those games to support my eyeball test.

I didn't watch every game, but I did watch that 9er game as well the Bengal game and the final game against the Seahawks, not to mention a couple of game when he was a rookie the year before.

He looked like an NFL QB in 2011, making huge strides from his rookie season.

Matt Cassel doesn't.

I guess any QB is helped by the quality of the players around him, huh?

The whole point of showing these stats was to prove Cassel has had some good stretches. Sure it helped him to play an easy schedule, or to have hall of fame talent around him. Although I'm sure there have been QB's with both those advantages that still didn't produce.

Cassel is what he is, a mediocre QB that if everything is going right can put up good numbers just like any NFL QB, even a back up, should be able to do.

The difference is that Skelton was in his second season and took huge strides, and showed tremendous upside.

Matt Cassel is essentially a 30 year old jouneyman who has passed his prime upside years.

He has no upside.

Cassel is an NFL QB, and would make a really good back up.

Why not? Not saying we could or couldn't pull it off. But 20M's is alot of money. I don't know what that number is but the Chiefs have certainly been profitable enough over the last 10 years to get that one key player that can get us a championship. We have almost all the other parts, LETS GET A ****ING QB!!!!!!

It pisses me off that there was no one smart enough in the organization to be able to piece together a defense to go with our top scoring offense, with Priest, Tony G, and our oline back in the Vermiel era. We can't let that happen again. and we can't wait another 2 or three years to develop a QB we have to start the devolopment now before Jamaal Charles, Bowe, and DJ don't have it anymore.

We disagree.

Any QB who wilts at the first sign of pressure is not an NFL calibre QB.

Most of the time, it's faux pressure.

So you think if he wasn't the Chiefs starting QB, he wouldn't even have a job in the NFL? I don't think so.

Derek Anderson, who's been mentioned a few times in this thread, has a job in the NFL.

That doesn't mean he should.

Didn't you say Blaine Gabbert was a first round QB?

I never really commented on Gabbert because I didn't see him.

Matt Cassel deserves to be an NFL QB as much as Mark Sanchez does.

Right, but let's not forget why we're talking about these two guys in the first place. It's because we were discussing if Fitzgerald or Bowe had a bigger disadvantage because of the QB throwing to them. I don't really care about Skelton beyond what he did in 2011.

I know Cassel doesn't have upside. I'd cut him tomorrow if I could. But I also think you're exaggerating how bad he is. Messier's right that he is a very, very good backup.

Gabbart plays like a gunshy birddog