it's laughable to think people actually think Russell won't be a Seahawk

That 8 YPA is almost a full yard greater than his next best season total. That's what we call a statistical outlier.

I understand you don't. I'm arguing the opposite because Wilson's come up big with the crucial play when necessary more often than not. I think, if they ask him to throw more he'll start putting up gaudy stats. Conversely, if Andrew Luck were asked to reduce his pass attempts by 200 per season, he likely wouldn't eclipse 4,000 yards or 30 TDs.

The two are actually shaping up to be the new school Tom Brady and Peyton Manning albeit currently better versions of the former's younger selves.

Luck also gets to play his home games in a dome. Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck, Drew Brees, Matt Ryan, Matt Stafford...it matters.

King is a guy who was always on the Brady side in the Manning debates ... yet stats didn't matter then. When Brady was putting up pedestrian stats but winning games.

Suddenly, now stats matter. Makes sense!

he also shares a division with Tennessee, Jax and Houston.

Man. Must be tough.

Oh boy...

The funny thing is, Russell Wilson's stats shit on Luck's if you take a closer look.

63.4% completion to 58.6%. Wilson wins.

5.8% TD rate to 4.7%. Wilson wins.

2.1% INT rate to 2.7%. Wilson wins.

7.9 YPA to 7.1 YPA. Wilson wins.

98.6 passer rating to 86.6. Wilson wins.

To date, Luck's thrown for 12,957 yards to Wilson's 9,950. He also has 600 MORE ATTEMPTS.

Here's all you need to know about the disparity of the team Russell Wilson is on the and one Andrew Luck is on.

In the championship games from each QB:

The best QB in the NFL on highest scoring offense in the NFL scores only 3 points off of ALL 4 Russell Wilson INT's. That's it.

The Colts defense allowed 21 points in the 3rd quarter alone

The Colts 22nd ranked rush offense ran for 65 yards.

Marshawn Lynch ran for 157 yards and a 6.3 YPC avg.

This is where we aren't able to equal up situations. If lucks defense were able to do what Wilson's did, maybe he can make plays ?

Bu5 luck also had the entire game to put up points like russel did in the superbowl.

Andrew Luck's wins:

Jax X 2
Ten X2
Bal
Hou X2
Cin
Giants
Cleveland
Washington

Losses: Denver, Philly, Pitt, New England, Dallas

Really impressive stuff.

Who said he gets a pass? Why is everything so black and white with you? He played like shit the 4th quarter. GB was coached like shit the 4th quarter.

And 4 INTs.


In the NFC championship game. If he doesn't throw 4 INTS, you don't need miraculous passes and incidents to happen in order to win. You don't need to rely on a player dropping an easy onside kick catch in order to win. HE was the reason they were down in the end.

Peyton Manning won several games for years in that shit division. Put an asterisk next to his all-time wins!

He failed several tests this semester but crammed and passed the Final.

SUCH A GREAT STUDENT! He should be valedictorian!

You said so yourself, sample size matters here. Wilson wins said stats but he's thrown it 600 times less. Throwing it, as you said, is more risky so I would assume Wilson's stats would change with 600 more attempts

One QB has no choice because their defense sucks and they had no running game.

The other has the best defense in the league and a top 5 rushing attack.

The top 5 rushing attack is BECAUSE of him though. It's not like he gets to just hand it off 30 times per game and its top 5.

Lynch had 1,200 yards and 12 TD's the year before Russell was drafted. And that was with teams stacking the box due to Tarvaris Jackson starting at QB.

Let's not act like Lynch isn't a top 5 RB in the NFL.

There isn't a team in the league would hesitate for even a millisecond to make Andrew Luck the highest paid QB in the history of the NFL.

The same cannot be said for Russell Wilson.

I'm a big believer in using metrics and getting ahead of the curve by paying free agents for future production. The Chiefs paying maclin while in the middle of his prime is a good example. Never pay free agents for past production.

The Seahawks are going to have to do that here. Russel hasnt' shown he can run a pass first offense from the pocket consistently yet. He hasn't be asked to moreso, but he hasn't shown it.

I don't think thats his game though. Like Weddle said in the article, he's so much better outside the pocket making plays. I don't think you can confine him.

I'd be hesitant to make him the highest paid QB, but I'd understand it.

Except at various points Houston, Jacksonville and Tennessee we're all good/great. It's been the worst division in football since luck has been drafted

He's great, but lets not act like Wilson having the capabilities he does doesn't impact the run game greatly.

Sure, but even if you take his rushing yards away, the Seahawks still have a better rushing offense than the Colts. They'd still have 300 yards more than the Colts.

He wasn't.

Lynch's YPC average before Wilson: 4.0

Lynch's YPC with Wilson: 4.6

Lmao EXCUSES

That's it. Hilarious.

That's based on an unhealthy obsession with physical measurements and potential.

To date, Russell Wilson has been the better QB.

As you said, it also potentially reaps more reward :)

I think you're getting a little carried away here.

If Seattle pays Wilson we'll know what kind of QB he is in a few years.

I agree, it does.

But that being the case, the fact that the Seahawks haven't asked Wilson to be more says something, no?

Facts:

In the championship games from each QB:

The best QB in the NFL on highest scoring offense in the NFL scores only 3 points off of ALL 4 Russell Wilson INT's. That's it.

The Colts defense allowed 21 points in the 3rd quarter alone

The Colts 22nd ranked rush offense ran for 65 yards.

Marshawn Lynch ran for 157 yards and a 6.3 YPC avg.

Russell Wilson doesn't have consequences when he makes mistakes.

How? In what way is being asked to do less and take on less responsibilities make you a better quarterback? You mean to tell me Luck wouldn't have won the superbowl in 2013 if he was with the Seahawks? Wilson won those three games with 103 yards, 215 yards, and 206 yards passing. He wasn't close to being anything special in those games. The defense was the most impressive thing in that superbowl run. Then Marshawn Lynch who had more touchdowns than Wilson that post season. And then finally Wilson.

Wilson's running ability is like giving Seattle an extra player on offense. Teams have to account for him, and that opens things up for everyone else. It's pretty amazing that a QB can have two conference championships and a Super Bowl in his first 3 seasons and people still treat him like he's good but not great.

The dude has won 42 total games in his first 3 seasons. The Chiefs have 3 playoff wins since 1969. Wilson has 6.

No, he's not. He's a ****ing moron when it comes to evaluating QBs. This is well established fact here at CP.

I can't take anyone seriously in this discussion if they can't realize that Luck had the weight of the franchise on his shoulders and Wilson was on the most talented team in the league not asking him to do anywhere near as much.

The Seahawks beat the Saints in a game where Wilson had 103 yards on 50% completion. The Seahawks held Drew Brees to 0 points for 3+ quarters. The game was never even really close despite what the 23-15 score says. The Saints didn't get that 2nd touchdown until there was 29 seconds left in the game.

That's the luxury Wilson has. He can win games comfortably when he really has no business doing so.

Luck can (will?) prove himself to be the superior QB in the long run, but -as Hoot points out- the AFC South has been a dumpster fire and his three playoff wins were achieved by beating two decidedly inferior QBs (Andy Dalton and Alex Smith) and one superior QB who was playing terribly due to injury (Manning).

But how the **** do say "no" to a guy who averages 2 playoff wins a season in the span of time where the NFC West was one of the toughest divisions in football, three playoff wins were against teams QB'd by two of the best signal callers in the NFL (Rodgers, Brees and Manning) has lost two games in the playoffs by a combined margin of six points where he *still* managed to throw two TDs in these losses and where one of the INTs thrown was largely a product of dumb playcalling by the 'hawks in addition to a great play by Malcolm Butler.

Yes, but largely because of the TEAM, not just Wilson.

lol No, dude. Shit. I can't be any more clear. There would be absolutely no reason to ask Wilson to throw the ball 40 times a game on a consistent basis. None.

But, whenever they need him to make big plays, he generally does. He brought the team back from a 14-0 deficit in the playoffs against Washington his rookie year, balled out and threw for over 300 yards in that same post season against Atlanta, he converted an insane 6 of 9 3rd downs on passing plays in the SB against Denver while ending the game with an 88 QBR, threw that absolute dime TD to Kearse on 4th down in the 2014 NFCCG, and we all know how clutch he was to end this latest NFCCG against the Packers.

Andrew Luck in the playoffs:

6 games 9 TDs 12 INTs QB rating by season: 59.8, 76.4, 71.8


Russell Wilson in the playoffs:

8 games 12 TDs 6 INTs QB rating by season: 102.4, 101.6, 90.3

In 2006, the Chicago Bears made the Super Bowl with Rex ****ing Grossman at QB.
The 2013 Seattle Seahawks were more talented than that team overall.

Russell Wilson is a good QB and he's very much so a guy I would love to have on my team, but he is NOT a franchise QB.

In 2016 we will all see the real Russell Wilson when he's paid and his team is considerably void of talent compared to this moment due to paying him elite money.

So it would be more impressive if he had lost with a mediocre team around him?

:facepalm:

The Seahawks defense has given up 12.3 points per game in the 36 regular season games he has won. It's not THAT hard to win games when all you need is a touchdown and 2 field goals. In the playoffs, they give up 15.5. We'd have more than a few playoff victories if that's what our defenses gave up.

Instead there are people complaining that Alex Smith only scored 4 touchdowns and lost.

I'm sure being on a loaded team made no difference for Wilson here.

Incredible stat if true.

His team is loaded on defense. It's far from loaded on offense.

True.

It's why I hate when people use the QB head to head W/L as if it's really useful.

In 2012, the Colts defense gave up 24 points in one game. The Seahawks defense gave up an average of 22 points in 2 games.

In 2014, the Colts gave up an average of 22.7 PPG in 3 games. The Seahawks gave up an average of 22.3 points over the same span.

The only noticeable difference in the two was 2013 when the Colts got absolutely piss pounded in by the Chiefs and Patriots. For all the doom and gloom, I stand by my original point. That Colt defense usually plays pretty well in big games.

Points. YOu know what I meant.

Just ****ing with you...

Seahawks point totals in playoff games under Wilson:

28, 24, 43, 23, 23, 24, 28, 31


Colts under Luck:

9, 22, 45, 7, 24, 26

The main difference between the two QBs has been running game and defense. Neither has had a great cast around him on offense, especially in the passing game (Luck's has been better than Wilson's in terms of WR/TE). I think Luck as QB of the Seahawks has won at least one SB, as Wilson has done.

We need more time for this to play out. Luck's ceiling is higher, and he's less likely to get hurt over the long run, and less likely to see his game go south as he doesn't rely on speed/mobility in the pocket to avoid pressure. Wilson waits longer for plays to develop, but partially because he CAN, and obviously has alot less pressure on him to perform well every week for his team to have a chance.

This conversation will be alot more interesting in 2020 or 2025 I think, than it is now.

Was just about to post this..

In three postseason trips Andrew Luck has thrown for 0 TDs and 1 INT, 6 TDs and 7 INTs, and 3 TDs and 4 INTs. Russell Wilson has gone for 3 TDs and 0 INTs, 3 TDs and 1 INT, and 6 TDs and 5 INTs.

What's the narrative around here when it comes to Peyton's lone Super Bowl win (specifically that postseason run)? He went for 3 TDs and 7 INTs. He got carried by his defense and running game while simultaneously drawing the worst SB contender this millennia?

So Alex Smith gets carried by his running game and defense to 9-10 wins and all is right with the world.

When Russell Wilson gets "carried" by his defense and running game and makes clutch plays to win playoff games and championships, the dude is slammed.

Funny place, CP is.

Clearly all thanks to Marshawn Lynch...

Luck has had 2 complete turd games in the playoffs out of 6 tries.

12/33 126 yards, 0 TDs, 2 INTs
28/54 288 yards, 0 TDs, 1 INT

They have given up 40 or more points 3 times in the last 2 postseasons.

And you're comparing that to the Seahawks defense?

ROFL

Would he have needed to make some of those clutch plays had he played better early?

Andrew Luck playoff game TDs/INTs:

0/1
4/3
2/4
1/0
2/2
0/2

The guy has played in 6 postseason games and has thrown multiple INTs 4 times.

Wilson has played in 8 postseason games and has thrown multiple INTs once.

Andrew Luck had 1 TD and 3 INTs against the Chiefs before the entire KC roster went down with concussions.

Impossible to know.

The difference is that he actually makes the plays when necessary, unlike the other QB I mentioned.

Number of pass attempts in playoff games would be something I'd like to see. Rushing yrds for , defense etc.

Just too difficult to compare

Andrew luck?

No one has brought up smith in like 10 pages until you did I don't think.

True, he wasn't good in that game early, but he kept throwing it and won.

Wilson gets a badge for doing that against the packers, but luck doesn't against th chiefs?

Someone said something like 2-9 when his defense gives up 24 or more.

Is that true?

ok. Well then I never want to hear from any idiot on this board that you can only win with a franchise QB.

Because CLEARLY the real formula is to have an Alex Smith at QB, a Marshawn Lynch at RB, and an elite defense.

You clearly don't need a TE, you don't need ANY receivers (at all), you don't need a tremendous offensive line. Nothing.

You just need Alex Smith. Marshawn Lynch. And a great defense. That's it. Nothing more.

Right?

Russel wilson is a franchise qb. Don't know that he's elite yet, but franchise qb absolutely.

If 2 games with 84 pass attempts, 0 TDs, and 3 INTs needs context, I don't know what to tell you.

I edited my post to clarify.

Point being, people around here bend over backwards to prop up Alex Smith, yet have no problems finding the smallest things to bash two of the best young QB's in the league over.

This fanbase deserves mediocrity.

I'm not arguing against Luck. My position is that Wilson absolutely belongs in the conversation with him in terms of elite NFL QBs...of which there are 3.

I literally just showed you how the two ultimately weren't so different in 2 of the 3 postseasons.

The one difference was 2013 when the Seahawks defense gave up an average of 13 PPG.

I want it to be clear I consider the elite NFL QB's to be Aaron Rodgers, Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson. (I am not counting Brady/Manning anymore even though they're still the best until proven otherwise).

That said, Aaron was ok, at best, in the NFCCG. Andrew was ****ing terrible. I think it's hilarious Aaron gets a pass for the 4th quarter in the NFCCG and people then want to turn around and shit on Russell Wilson's 4th quarter in the Super Bowl. Wilson was actually pretty good in the 4th quarter, he just got royally ****ed. One, on a clear as day DPI where Butler tripped a guy Wilson had streaking wide open for what would have probably been a 40+ yard gain (if not a TD with 1 move) on what probably would have been the final dagger. Then, they inexplicably called a ****ing pick play pass on 2nd and Goal from the 1 after Wilson had them 1 yard from winning 2 straight championships.

Yet ... out of all the great postseason games he has played ... the only two being referenced are his 108 yard game against New Orleans in a total shit weather game where Seattle NEVER ONCE had anything to worry about. They were up 16-0 at half. That was a "we're not going to lose so let's not force anything" game. Plain and simple. And his 4 INT game, where all of those picks were thrown to Jermaine Kearse, who was responsible for 2 of those, and had Russell go on long TD drives 3 times, in a row, to win a game in which most QB's would have folded due to the aforementioned 4 INT's. And not only that, he did it on the first drive of OT ... where he checked into a deep pass ... and threw it to Jermaine Kearse.

Oh and then the 2nd and 1 INT in the Super Bowl (cuz that was such a terrible play by Wilson, apparently).

It's ****ing ridiculous.

But hey, it's CP.

Andrew and Aaron do no wrong.

Wilson and Peyton get shit on.

Got it.

I couldn't disagree more

Two first round picks for Wilson is a steal. Any franchise that won't pull that trigger deserves misery.

this website has preached postseason play as the "be all, end all" of determining how good a QB is ...

Russell Wilson has been a better postseason QB than anyone for 3 years in a row, now ... minus, perhaps, Tom Brady last year. Hell, I'll even say Tom was better than Russell last year.

Russell has been the best postseason QB 2 out of 3 years and 2nd best that 3rd year.

The 2 games he has lost were games in which he displayed nothing but clutch play. His 2nd half against Atlanta was LEGENDARY. He had the game WON against New England. Plain and simple. He won that ****ing game. He posted a 92.2 QBR. It was his ... and then the play call. Worst play call in the history of the NFL.

And those are his two losses.

1) Best half I've ever seen from a QB ... scores game winning TD ... Seattle's VAUNTED defense let's Matt Ryan complete two ridiculous passes and Bryant nails a 50 yarder to win.

2) Worst play call in the history of the NFL.

6-2

BUT HEY

Let's talk about a blowout game against New Orleans where Drew Brees was shut out because Drew Brees is pretty overrated (why do Peyton and Tom always win their division while Drew misses the playoffs consistently?) and throwing 4 INT's in another one that he ends up playing the most clutch 5 minutes in the history of the NFL to advance his team to a Super Bowl.

but

let's ignore 12-33 in the AFCCG from Andrew Luck because apparently it's him and 52 guys off the street

How the **** can you not have Big Ben or Drew Brees on this list?

Does Russell Wilson deserve to get between $17-$20 million per year? Yes.

Does Russell Wilson deserve to be paid as the highest QB in the league or on par with Andrew Luck?

No.

Glad the morons have been shamed enough to make this a close vote.

Fantasy football has ruined expectations of what the modern football fan looks for. If a QB doesn't consistently lead his team to a 14-2 regular season record, win at least two postseason games, throw for 5,500 yards and 45+ TD's a year, then that QB isn't "worth the price" or "worth the risk". If a QB plays on a team with a defense that is continuously a top 5 defense and isn't asked to do much, then he is just along for the ride and isn't "worth the price". It's crazy to me. I'm not sure what more Wilson has to do before he is seen as a great QB in this league.

They are both in my tier 2.

I want to know why Peyton and Tom win their divisions every year, no matter what ... but Brees can't? Against Atlanta, Carolina and Tampa? I think he's a stat whore that throws too many mistakes.

He's clearly a top 10 QB but I don't have him in my top 5.

1 year only :

1. Brady
2. Rodgers
3. Wilson
4. P. Manning
5. Luck
6. Ben
7. Romo
8. Drew
9. Eli
10. Rivers