lolwut?

Alex Smith is a top 15 QB.

Name me 25 QBs better than Alex Smith.

Mike Wallace changed teams and his production went down- he must have derailed mentally!

Just as Crabs was lazy, Bowe was lazy, etc.

You're doing some serious gymnastics here to try and validate your point of view. The fact that you can't see it is even weirder than the fact that you followed a middling QB to another team in the first place.

Why couldn't they score points by using lesser resourced WRs?

See, you really can't get around this. If the great QBs could excel with anyone at WR.. these teams would not pay the level of resources they do to acquire or retain them. They do it because as their receiving corps dips in talent... so do their high-paid QBs.

Rodgers made those guys in GB. Just like Luck is doing in Indy. You think they miss the throw to Wilson that would have beat Pitt and put us in the playoffs????

LOL. Now its 15?

Ok....off the top of my head:

Calvin Johnson
Odell Beckham JR
Demaryius Thomas
AJ Green
Dez Bryant
Randall Cobb
Jordy Nelson
Julio Jones
Antonio Brown
Brandon Marshall
Victor Cruz
Larry Fitzgerald
Desean Jackson
Jeremy Maclin
ALshon Jeffrey
Andre Johnson

Hows that?

Hey, you drink as much as I have through the years, you lose brain cells! lol

So let's look back.

"Hilton is not a top 10 WR"

"I say he is. Name 10 WRs better" (this allows you to name 9 WRs better)
"I say he is. Name 15 WRs better" (this allows you to name 14 WRs better)

I did you a favor... by giving you more space to scramble for 14 WRs to be better.. therefore clearly helping you push Hilton out of the top 10... which is a benefit to your argument.


So... you drank more than me, eh?

You must have misses the Superbowl this year.

How much you think Hilton gets paid by Indy? If what you say is true... Hilton will be released when his contract runs out... right?

Why pay Randall Cobb 10 mil per when you already have some solid WR talent there?

But can YOU name 40???? Huh? Huh? Well.....
.

This is a serious comment?

Umm... you surround great QBs with good receivers because you have to win games by passing the ball. Because if you can't pass the ball, most of those teams aren't good at running the ball or playing defense. Even if you surround Alex Smith with great receivers, you're not going to win the game by passing the ball.

Do you think with Green Bay's or Pittsburgh's defense you're going to get away with a QB with a <30% third down efficiency and strings of consecutive 3 and outs?

Because the QB gets what he wants. Those are flawed teams...severely flawed and they have no choice but to outscore the other team.

:facepalm:

Um. You may not know this but teams tend to pay guys that are good at their positions a lot of money.

That's a stretch, if I ever saw one. How is Cruz even conceived of here? lol
Alshon is better? You really think?

Randall Cobb is better? isn't he just a product of Rodgers?

You would take 34 yr old Andre J over Hilton? I seriously doubt that.

Let's just say for argument's sake that your list is valid... that makes Hilton the 17th best WR in the league.

Would this constitute Luck having a bottom tier WR corps?

but according to some... they are not good... merely receiving vessels from a great QB that makes them look good...

QBs certainly help the cause in including chemistry.

Maybe you can name 20 WRs that went from a top level QB to a mediocre one and produced as well.

Carson Palmer sack rate was WAY down. And are we gonna pretend his previous years didn't happen? The ones that directly support a QB being brought down by a tough situation around him.

Cam Newton was terrible at times last year. Finished OK but did not excel in 2014.

Ryan Tannehill was nearly the same as Smith in 2014.

Tom Brady could fit it at several different points in his career. That is nonsense and using a top 5 QBs again which for the 100th time doesn't make sense.

Andrew Luck is the QB prospect of a generation about as stupid to use a top 5 QB. And we had people claim RGIII or Wilson is as good as him because on the surface it looked like it but Luck was in a much harder spot than either of them.

Philip Rivers is right outside top 5 QB and his excelling last year while in a tough spot was a QB rating .4 better than Alex Smith. And as a little help for Rivers his guys dropped 3% not 6% like KC.

I have been on the same page as you have up until this.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. Ryan Tannehill's 2014 season, his third year in the league, is a season that Alex Smith could only dream about.

4,045 passing yards
27 touchdowns
66.4% completion percentage

Maybe in Alex's 10th season, he can accomplish something Tennehill did in his 3rd. Maybe.

He threw 590 passes.
6.9 yards per attempt 10.3 per completions SAME level as Smith.

I guess touchdowns are meaningless to you.

"Alex Smith makes your defense better"
 

You're entire ****ing argument doesn't make sense!

You ask for QBs that have excelled with subpar OL and WR play, I list several names, you say they don't count because this, that and the other.

This guy is elite and that guy was a generational prospect and the other guy threw for more yards, more TDs, and higher completion percentage in his third year than Alex ever had in 10 years while being surrounded by unquestionably inferior talent and yet they're "much the same".

This has flown under the radar long enough. Do you realize how you ****ed up here?

whoops.. yeah, that was pretty bad, I admit.. but moving along and back to the point.. :doh!:

Cutler had 28 TDs, he was better?

Case for Tannehill noticeably did more over Smith in 2014 is incredibly weak just give it up.

Alex Smith is the best QB at getting his WRs to play down to his level.

The players I gave are examples that fit your parameters. Roethlisberger was 23 years old when he had a QB rating of 98.6, and about a 2:1 TD:INT ratio, in 2005, and he helped his team to a Super Bowl win. ViperVisor's already shown himself to be a complete ****ing idiot. There's no need for you to join him in that.

I'm not going to play the disqualify game with you. It's embarrassing that you're even trying it.

Actually, this was my discussion (happy to share though).. and I later allowed elite QBs in, because frankly.. they were the only few (still debatable if any) that could fit into the crap OL and WR parameters.

The point is.. throughout history, it seems rare (if ever) for even good/great QBs to function at a high level when they have trash at both OL and WR. Yet people expect that Alex Smith should be one of those QBs?

Instead of being pissed that he can't work magic with trash... how bout be angry that the Chiefs are struggling to field even a mediocre group of OL and WRs.

Now, I expect these position groups to be better now.. at least at WR. OL... no idea.

Cutler is debatable but you cherry picked the one guy that was debatable and ignored the other 12 with 25 or more TDs that arent debatable by sane people.

Sorry you feel that way.

So now it's about the QB rating? At 23, Ben had a pro bowl WR in Hines Ward. He had a middle of the pack OL then, and some solid players named Marvel Smith, Faneca, Hartings, Simmons, and Starks.

Ben put up 2,300 yds passing.. 17 TDs.. 10 turnovers..

Are we really going to give him massive credit for anything other than playing well with a good roster at a young age?

Nope. The most important player on the field doesn't deserve any credit for winning 2 SB's.

You ask for QBs that have performed well under certain circumstances, I give you names and you say those QBs are good so they don't count.

You want me to name people that suck to help prop up your argument.

They mostly don't count cause they are not valid applications of the equation.

The argument is clear.

A non-great QB *Alex Smith fits this*
additionally a Bottom 5-10 Pass Weapons
additionally a Bottom 5-10 Pass Blocking

And my god some act like we have to defend a
69.4 season Eli had in 2013
73.1 season Flacco had in 2013

Smith had a very solid and very unspectacular season in 2014 with a 93.4 rating

Is anyone else as tired of Viper's drop percentage stay as I am?

Actually, I was more interested in seeing if people could name anyone that might make me reconsider.

... and I am looking for QBs that performed very well under those circumstances. Not QBs that had similar Alex-Smith like numbers.

The idea here is.. if Alex.. with a crap OL and WRs... can perform to the level he has in the last 2 years...

Surely, there must be QBs that... with a crap OL and WRs... has performed at a higher level.

.. but I am not getting much help in the way of naming those QBs, which years, and the personnel that they had.

I know I am tired of the Chiefs being in the top 5 worst team drop percentage in the last 2 seasons. That sucks.

This is the problem with people like you. You don't know when to just admit that a couple of guys fit the bill. That OL was not good and, as I'd noted in that earlier thread, Hines Ward was all Roethlisberger had at receiver. He led the team with 69 catches. The #2 WR was Randle El, with 35. You don't get to overrate that group when Smith's had Bowe at WR. And, yes, we're going to give the QB some credit for helping his team win the Super Bowl. That 2005 Steelers defense wasn't any kind of all-time group.

Roethlisberger fits the bill, as do Brady and Dilfer from the 2000-2015 SB span. That's just life.

... and even if I was to accept the few names you offer.. the point still stands. It's not about "oh, no one has or can ever do it." It's more about it being a very rare thing.

When Sorter occasionally corrects me on football matters, I generally shut the **** up.

After thanking him of course.

I wish Sandy Cheeks would get the AIDS he has given this thread.

you seem nice

That was glorious. Dude shit his pants and ignored Sorter LMAO

Sorter has the acumen and knowledge of the game to the point I'd believe it if he said there are actually 12 players allowed on the field per team.

2009-2011 Ben had the highest sack time avg in the NFL.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/und...sack-deviation

WR crew shifted pieces in and out but they had ability.

And Heath Miller way overlooked. There every year and #1 in the NFL since 2005 out of all WR/TE in catch %.

Go **** your mom while chugging a gallon of antifreeze, you team hopping, steaming pile of shit.

You're moving the goalposts to suit your needs.

This is how your phrased your argument in this thread:

The QBs I listed clearly did that.

What you're doing is playing games with words like "excel". Sorry, QBs overcame line and WR woes in the 2000-2015 SB stretch, three of them won SBs, and one of those QBs was horseshit (and THAT's where your argument would have been more effective, rather than pointing to Roethlisberger):

"Smith is a much better QB than Dilfer ever was, and he's a better QB than Brad Johnson was, too. Smith is good enough to win a Super Bowl, if he's got a good enough team around him."

That argument has validity.

And, for the record, the basic premise that lousy OL + Lousy receivers = bad times for QBs isn't really debatable. It's when you get beyond that where things get sketchy.

This.

"What, Pete Rose developed the on-side kick you say"?

"Okay".

That is an outlier. That is the point. It's very rare they cobbled together an offense, the QB grinded it out and it worked to win games. Win in the playoffs and Win a Super Bowl.

They won reg season games with Ben passing 93 177 173 149 135

Carson Palmer blows out his knee to open the playoff game
Game saving tackle on the fumble @ Indy
Roethlisberger's lame to say the least SB game is forgotten

It's a war of attrition to win it all in the NFL. It's harder without a great QB. It's harderest when you add to scoops of lame WRs and Pass Blocking on top of that.

It's pretty obvious that is the crap Reid and Alex Smith were dealing with in 2014. The off-season made it even more obvious in what was done to change that.

Changing Alex Smith isn't happening.
Let's see what happens when a non great QB is givin a decent shot because he isn't sabotaged by a lame group of targets and a piss poor OL.

Super Bowl? I doubt it. But that's life in the NFL for most teams most.

Ah. I'm really not playing games with words, but yes.. I apparently have not been consistent enough with the words I used.

Go with playing at a high level, or excelling. (playing significantly better than Alex, in other words)

It's still not likely to net much of a list.. as it isn't often that a QB has BOTH a shit OL and WR group in the first place.. much less still manage to perform at an above average level.

If this kind of analysis mentioned in the OP has any kind of value, then is it possible to provide NEGATIVE hidden points for your team?

Because that's exactly what Alex Smith gave us today.

Praise be to Marcus Peters, Eric Berry, and this defense.

His pick was even the same as a punt!