You're arguing the results of the picks, not whether or not defense was neglected.

You want to argue that we've had picks that have so far underwhelmed? that's totally a valid argument.

but to say it was 'neglected' with 'premium picks'-hell, we hadn't had a first rounder since Mahomes before CEH. And plenty of #2 picks went to defense. Additionally, we've got a VERY highly paid defensive line. So it hasn't been 'neglected'.

We're seeing poor results at this point. But that's not the same thing, it's a totally different argument.

You know what I love about Chiefsplanet?

We lose a couple of games, and our GM is an idiot, and coach Reid is terrible, and all of these players are busts, and anyone who says otherwise is a dumbass.

Then we'll win a few games and all of that is forgotten and everyone never doubted the team for a second.

I’m arguing both. Veach wasted picks drafting offensive guys like Hardman and CEH who haven’t panned out and might have been considered “luxury” picks. And virtually every defensive player he’s taken has underwhelmed. Gay and Bolton might be the exceptions but one can’t stay healthy and the other is a rook. When your defense is as bad as KCs, drafting guys who start right now means absolutely nothing. It is what it is.

Just to add some more to this convo if anyone was curious:

The 2019 Draft yielded 28 WR's taken.

Of those 28 WR's drafted, Hardman is:

8th in Receiving Yards
6th in Touchdowns
3rd in Rushing Yards

Just some info for ya'll to mull over.

You think the things you describe are unique to CP?

None of Veachs picks come close. If were talking rotational defensive players then Veach wins because that's just about all hes drafted on defense besides Sneed and Bolton

Jones, Kelce, Hill, Hunt are probably some of the best players in the NFL. Veach gets guys like Armani Watts in those rounds.

Yeah, I wish we drafted Metcalf or McLaurin. But it could've been way worse. The next three WRs taken after Hardman were Arcega-Whiteside, Parris Campbell, and Andy Isabella. All of them are busts. I remember a lot of people here wanted the latter two.

:rolleyes:

Yea let’s just ignore guys like Sneed and Smith.

Nice rebuttal.

Where’s all this talent that Dorsey drafted on defense in Cleveland?

That list consist of Denzel Ward, who was a top 10 pick, and basically nothing else, hence why they essentially had to rebuild their entire defense this offseason.

Nice try dipshit.

Is Veach your cuckhold or something? Guy is average at best and only got the job because hes the coaches buddy. Name 1 player Veach has drafted thats close to Kelce/Hill/Jones

The Metcalf stuff is dumb. Yes I wish we would have taken him in hindsight. But he was a physical freak who couldn’t stop or turn. He had 1200 yards in his whole college career. It’s 1 in a 100 that he panned out

And Hardman was a panic pick with all that was going on with Tyreek. If you remember it wasn’t looking good for Tyreek ever playing again. Veach tried to go for the player who has a similar skill set

Forget "Overreaction" Planet. I'm thinking more "Manic/Depressive" Planet.

100% highs or 100% lows (mostly from the same people depending on what happened that week).:LOL:

Also want to point out that Chris Jones did not play in that game so he didn’t exactly have someone taking up the attention from him

So did Dorsey. He was a 22 year personnel guy who never got serious consideration until Andy went to KC.

And then he sucked ass and got fired twice lmao

Btw Andy was responsible for Kelce and Kareem dummy

Kelce is the best player at his position.

Tyreek is arguably the best player at his position.

Jones is the 2nd best interior pass rusher in the league.

Veach has been here for 4 years, and has had 1 1st round pick, while picking at the end of every round.

Maybe give it some ****ing time and he will, but if the bar is to draft a Kelce/Hill/Jones in his first 4 years as a GM, those are some very unrealistic expectations.

Sneed, Gay, Bolton, Thornhill, Smith, Humphrey, Niang etc. all have ridiculous upside. Just because they aren’t elite now, doesn’t mean that they won’t be after they’ve developed.

Not necessarily staylor. Dorsey pulled it off in less than 4 years. They fired him cause he wore crew neck sweatshirts when everyone else had a suit on. You'll never change my mind on that.

Dorsey came to the Chiefs when they had the #1 overall pick in every ****ing round.

Veach’s first draft was without a 1st round pick because of the Mahomes trade, and he has never even had a top 25 pick. He’s had exactly 1 1st round pick, and it was 32.

Veach’s first draft class hasn’t even finished year 4. Most of the young talent he’s drafted is in year 3 or less.

It’s also absurd to say Veach can’t find elite talent when we know for a fact that he found the best player on our team, and the best player this organization has and ever will have.

Jesus Christ I'd forgotten all about that. The saga of Chris Jones and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Basketball Game.

Kelce, Hunt, Peters all problem children. Kelce got calmer with age( it took some time).

The fantasy that Veach deserves all the credit for Mahomes always makes me chuckle.

It's definitely never happened before in the real world where an organization fires someone and then gives his replacement all the credit while claiming the terminated individual actually wasn't responsible for most of what he accomplished.

I have no doubt that Veach scouted Mahomes but John Dorsey was the GM at the time and deserves the credit. I'm not interested in semantics.

The "Chiefs would never have drafted Mahomes without Brett Veach" narrative was shoved down our throats in an attempt to buy Bert some positive PR with the fanbase when we promoted an inexperienced guy to GM. I'm not naive enough to believe otherwise.

Nobody said he deserves “all the credit”. That’s a strawman if I’ve ever seen one.

Also, were those at Texas Tech also in on the propaganda campaign?

We know Veach got Reid and Dorsey to buy in on Mahomes. That was legendary Veach-ian work acknowledged by all parties.

Why do you assume that it was all Dorsey who knew *exactly* where he needed to be to draft Mahomes? Veach was the one in contact with Mahomes' rep Chris Cabbot for 94 consecutive days before the draft.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...d-with-chiefs/
Veach is responsible for Mahomes. We won a Super Bowl because of Mahomes. We have potentially the greatest athlete of our generation in Kansas City because of Veach.

You want to pretend he should be evaluated because of Hardman and Speaks? Laughable. If Veach didn't exist, this franchise would've likely gone decades without another title.

It's not that Veach can do no wrong - he's absolutely had some misses - but the guy gets enormous credit because he's primarily responsible for the most franchise-altering decision in the modern NFL.

Totally, bro. It's not like the story was corroborated by the agency that represents Mahomes or anything. We just made it up as a PR move to get rid of that dastardly Dorsey.

Hence why I highlighted earlier to someone else that wait till Creed or Trey has a bad game. It will happen and the responses will be predictable.

But isn't that a scouts job? Identify good players in the region and sell them to your higher ups? Do you think without Veach that Andy and Dorsey would have never discovered Mahomes? Andy didn't know what Mahomes could potentially be until Veach brought it to him?

Hill and Kelce dropped due to character issues. Let's not pretend they were diamonds in the rough that Dorsey, due to his superior eye for talent. Also before you highlight the Jones pick, you might want to look at the rest of that draft. Outside of Hill (as previously discussed) and Robinson (who is a JAG) that was a horrific draft. I actually think Dorsey had a pretty good eye for talent, but to put him on a pedestal while bashing Veach is silly. If you want to talk about an eye for talent Veach found Mahomes and he alone trumps Kelce, Hill and Jones.

It would be naive and idiotic to assume Reid and Dorsey would've never discovered Mahomes without Veach. Of course they would've been aware of him and had their eye on him. And had he dropped into the late 20s, I have no doubt they would've taken him. But to just assume because they were aware of Mahomes that they would've been that aggressive in trading up to get him? I think that's a huge stretch.

Veach pointed the needle directly at Mahomes and establish a rapport with the people closest to him. I don't think anyone can deny that was a crucial part of this franchise's going out and drafting a QB with the first first round pick since '83.

Probably the lesson here is to no be afraid of character issues. Trust your staff and leaders to keep them in line, while just drafting the best available talent.

I'm not entirely sure that's the lesson. We're dealing with massive survivorship bias here in that most players with character issues absolutely are red flags and flame out and you never hear from them again. It's finding those guys who have a story behind the story or who have a reasonable shot at redemption with a good locker room and a players' coach like Reid.

Veach didn't "find" shit. JFC.

You'd think he pulled Mahomes out of Antarctica or something the way people talk about him.

The relevant question: Do the Chiefs have Mahomes without Veach?
Likely answer: No.
Conclusion: Veach is primarily responsible for Mahomes.

Jesus christ lmao

You are wrong....... a lot. And true to form, you are here as well. You keep on keeping on though.

Instead of laughing, refute what was said.

Interesting observations:

-Danna looks like a flat out steal. He’s been solid in run defense and has 3 sacks in 4 games
-Sneed looks like a legit top 10 corner
-Humphrey and Smith are legit top 10 players at their positions by analytics and film.
Fletcher Cox is a top 3 interior rusher and got his ass kicked by Trey Smith yesterday

Who deserves blame for this dogshit defense? Veach, Andy, Spags? All of them? Outside of Sneed (who got burned last night) Brett’s picks on the defensive side haven’t panned out (although I think Bolton and Gay could develop into nice players).

Anyone ready to admit that Veach might be a problem yet?

He’s an NFL GM.

NFL GMs miss on picks. Sometimes in the 2nd or 3rd round.

The key is to just be better than the other GMs at not whiffing as much

So, pre season Veach did everything right, now he is the problem.

Yup. Chicken Littles all over the place.

He gets paid to get things right. If you're not improving your roster, you lose in the NFL, period. We have not consistently improved positions through the draft from 2018-2020.

To his credit, I think the 2021 draft looks pretty good.

My biggest gripe with Veach is the RB depth he put together after what he did with the OL. The talent in this team is fine. They just aren't playing with the same fire the past two season. Drunk off of success maybe

We had the same problem in 2018. We went from the worst pass defense to the 12th pass defense in 2019, iirc, and we won the SB.

HB is a FA after the season. They can get out of Clark and Hitchens contracts. He'll have money to make changes. I have faith he will get it done. He's done it before.

Just because Veach did a great job with Mahomes, that doesn't mean he is going to make a good GM. Being a GM is different than being a scout. There's more decisions to be made and you've got to be able to judge all different types of positions, not just a QB. Whatever sentiments Clark Hunt has for Veach for helping to draft Mahomes needs to be put to the side when he is judging how Veach is doing his job as a GM.

Lets not forget that you yourself said when you met Veach he was gushing about Frank Clark. Constantly bragging about how good he was going to be and how he is the second coming of Reggie White. Obviously Veach was very wrong about Clark its costing this team right now.

If we keep giving Veach credit for the 2017 draft, we're screwed. The NFL is built entirely around "what have you done for me lately".

Veach had a pretty good draft in 2021, IMO. But from 2018-2020 he failed.

His personnel decisions have been pretty suspect.

Yep. Elway did an excellent job in Denver from 2011-2015. But he got fired because of what he did from 2016-2020

We are in a transition phase. Veach made a lot of decisions to help us win a super bowl that are hurting us today. Guys like Clark, Hitchens, Mathieu, Watkins... Say what you want about them but they got the job done and let's not forget our D went from worst to pretty dominant in one offseason.

Now we're paying the piper. And two of those guys, Clark and Mathieu, are the fire for the defense and this year. They are too distracted to lead. Couple that with spags being completely off early in the season. As many have pointed out, our defense last year was good enough that arguably 1-2 pieces could have made them excellent. So I don't think the D is nearly the shit show we think it is. It's just Murphys law where any small thing that can go wrong has for this defense.

Look at the roster.

The O-Line rebuild has worked and I give him total credit for that.

But he did nothing to address safety opposite Mathieu. He's poured the MOST MONEY IN THE LEAGUE into a DL and it flat out sucks. Ben Niemann STILL sees the field.

He also failed to address WR2 and it has
allowed good teams to bracket Kelce and Hill with relative ease. He made the disastrous CEH pick in the first round. No one respects our running game and we have a "first round" RB and a fairly stout o-line.

Besides the Dorsey 3 there is a dearth of talent on this team, and now that teams are figuring out how to deal with those guys the rest of the roster is getting completely exposed.

I know most people love Veach because he "discovered" Mahomes and we won a Super Bowl while he was GM (Thanks to John Dorsey players).

But he is gutting this franchise right in front of our eyes. Time to wake up and see reality.

Bullshit. The talent is not fine.

Tom Brady had 4 distinct phases of his Patriots tenure and in all those 4 phases his supporting cast was essentially completely different.

Mahomes will have the same thing. He'll have 3-4 different 'primary crews' over the course of his Chiefs career.

Now tell me - just how confident are you in Veach assembling the next one? Because that resume of his is pretty much whatever credit you want to give him for Mahomes, a coupld of good 3rd day picks and a bunch of overpays.

Well, if we are going say those overpays will lead to the same immediate success and that Mahomes is going to have 3-4 different crews over his career, I'm good with 3-4 SBs.

The talent on the offense is fine. It should still be a 35+ game/unit. That's a truly dangerous offense but it's playing incredibly poorly.

You could tell in the first drive that it wasn't working well. A bad/unnecessary hold by Robinson, a dropped 1st down, a complete misfire to a wide open Kelce. It took them something like 13-15 plays to work themselves into FG range and I think Mahomes was something like 2 of 8 on the drive. it was ugly as sin.

And it only got worse from there. The offense is committing unforced errors even when it's executing (weeks 1-4) and last night it wasn't executing either.

Now the talent on the defense, OTOH, is clearly a major problem.

He won't have the luxury of those overpays anymore because now Mahomes (and Jones) are being paid to their talent levels.

So no, that's not really an option going forward. Especially if/when Kelce and Hill start to decline and their last couple of years end up with some legacy costs baked into them.

Even paying Orlando Brown a market contract next year is going to really impact the Chiefs ability to improve the rest of the roster. The days of throwing bags at luxury items like Watkins are gone. The days of overpaying for 'glue guys' like Mathieu aren't coming back.

He's going to have to do more with less going forward - especially when he has to start backfilling for the age-related declines of the Dorsey players he inherited.

I just don't know how confident anyone can be in his ability to navigate that minefield.

Wasn't Mahomes' contract structured in a way that if they needed cap space they can just convert a good chunk of his salary to a signing bonus?

It's strange to me that people are suddenly so down on Veach and the roster. The consensus a month ago seemed to be that the team was loaded. Now you hate every single player on the defense and some of the offensive talent too. It's not as if most of them are new.

I slightly disagree. The young guys are showing up the vets so far this year, imo. Once the rest of the D gets their head out of their ass(and we bench Sorenson) I think we could play much better. We obviously needed juice in the pass rush. But we spent our best picks addressing the OL and LB.. Couldn't address everything..

Now we beefed up the Oline and Our best RB(who is barely starting caliber) is hurt and we have nothing but practice squad material behind him. We gonna need the old PMII if this team is gonna go to the playoffs

In theory every contract has that potential. And yes, his can be re-worked.

But that's just kicking the can. You're going to convert salary to bonus and send it out into later years, but those 'later years' start the very next season and you're only going to compound problems. That's how genuine 'cap hell' happens.

Personally I think that's a duct tape sort of solution that will create more problems than it solves over a meaningful timeline.

His guys getting paid like stars have to play like stars, his 'middle class' players have to be, at worst, reliable contributors and his young guys have to be more impactful than folks like MEH, Speaks and even Thornhill/Hardman are demonstrating to this point.

Veach absolutely has to be better at this job than he's been the last several years. The job is only going to get harder.

Tyreek is another one that was still cheap in 2018. I think the Jones contract is potentially an albatross. He might be one of those guys who stops trying on defense when they get paid. Justin Houston & Frank Clark are good examples of it. Veach has done a poor enough job drafting on the defensive side of the ball that I think it’s very fair to wonder if this will ever improve.

I acknowledged that somewhere else 'round here. We obviously had a dire need on the OL and a finite amount of cap/draft resources to address that with.

It didn't leave much for the rest. I get it. But the problem is that some of those issues arose from previous mistakes. They compound over time if you can't course-correct quickly.

But again - all that gets to where I started in this thread years ago. There was a whole lot of hand jobs given to Brett Veach for a job that should've been graded as an INC to that point because he simply hadn't reached the meat of the responsibility yet. Now he's there and the early returns have been less than stellar.

This team needs the playoffs like a we all need to be hit in the face by Tyson Fury. We need better draft status and let's face it, we will get it. Looking at the schedule we are a 7 win team most likely and that's a good thing. I just hope Veach doesn't **** it up with project players. Get a damn pass rusher and a corner in 1 and 2 rounds.

I mean... by the end of the 2023 season damn near all of his guaranteed money is paid out. I don't think the Chiefs will ever have to worry about 'cap hell' because of his contract.

Tank to shank the D. Get some rest along the way.

Sure they will. It's not like they're going to cut him.

So they can keep bonusing out his salary and pushing it off, but it will compound. You take $25 million in roster bonuses and convert it to a signing bonus in 2022, that's $5 million in cap space it's adding to the subsequent 4 seasons. Then you do it again the following year and suddenly you're dragging along an extra ten million. Then in 2024 you're already carrying $10 million in restructure bonuses in addition to the $4.5 million or so you restructured in 2020, then you're looking at his $34 million roster bonus and his $2 million base and you're talking about a $55 million cap hit in 2024.

I mean...I guess you convert the roster bonus to a signing bonus for a fourth straight year, but now you're looking at a $61 million cap charge in 2025. And that's when this new young OL is going to need new deals and Hill/Kelce will be declining and Jones will need to be replaced. The entire roster will probably be different around him and he's going to be sporting a cap figure that will make meaningful additions nearly impossible.

At some point you just have to pay the goddamn piper or you will bury your cap. You can't just keep converting roster bonuses and salary into signing bonuses because it's going to keep adding up and compounding into an inescapable monster down the road.

I know they wont ever cut him, unless he has some life altering injury, but I'm going to assume the powers at be know more about manipulating the salary cap than me and you. How many times did the Patriots restructure Tom Brady to find money for guys like Randy Moss? We've been told numerous times that 'cap hell' is a myth. The Chiefs structured Mahomes' contract in such a way that if they need cap room they could free up space. I'm not concerned about not having money to sign someone.

Stop with this shit you play to win. Having a higher draft pick doesn't guarantee anything. Just ask the Jets.

I mean - you can assume it, but the math is easy. Basic calculator work will get you where you need to go. The available mechanisms are public knowledge.

The distinction is that Brady, to the chagrin of the players association, often took pay cuts or left money on the table. He's sign some extension that paid very little on the back end, knowing they'd eventually get around to tearing it up. Some said it was because he was was loaded, others said shady dealings with Kraft. But Brady wasn't just restructuring money - he was giving money back. And it was far easier for Brady to do that because his deals weren't a decade long. Given the limitations on how far out you can pro-rate, some of that stuff just won't be available for Mahomes and his 10 year deal.

Additionally, at a point asking your star player to take less money is bad business, especially when guys who haven't been as good as him are getting paid more. Occasionally you can go to that well but doing so annually? Or flat out asking that he forego salary or bonuses? Just presuming Patrick would, or even that he should, is a fools errand.

Cap hell isn't really a myth, but it's a lot harder to get into than some acknowledge. A cap can be easily manipulated for a year or three (as Veach has shown). But there is one way to get into cap hell and it's to keep doubling down and doubling down. It's what the Saints have done and their cap is a damn mess. Every 5-10 years some team tries something like this for another 1-2 year chase and it always means that they've gotta scorch the earth for a season or 2 to clean up the mess.

Looking at this realistically, Veach was a young GM in his first gig. He was handed one of the worst defenses ever (during the 2018 season it had periods of that futility). He didn’t have a 1st rd pick his first year due to the Mahomes trade so he was already behind the 8 ball. But yes his draft aside from Nnadi was a really bad draft.

And yes Veach is living off of Dorsey’s picks right now. Do people not think Dorsey didn’t do the same? Tamba, Houston, Berry, DJ. Even Allen Bailey was a quality interior rusher for a period of time.
Dorsey could not get the next wave of defensive players to replace those guys. Dee Ford was a broke dick and his LB, corner and safety additions were just plain terrible.

So yes I think Veach had some rookie struggles but I think the trend is encouraging. Sneed was a great pick. Niang seems to be a decent RT. Danna has done well for a 5th rd pick. Gay is still TBD.

I guess I feel compelled to give him more time bc of this years offseason. Creed and Trey are legit pro bowlers. They’re that good. Bolton had 2 TFL last night and flashed as much as any LB we’ve had since DJ. He’s not a “star” but he looks like he belongs and more time could help him.
Orlando Brown Jr has been okay. That’s not terrible for a LT that is cheap right now and working into the position. I think the contract structure will be what defines that move. And then Thuney of course ha been good.

The defense was really really bad and Veach/Spags patched it up in 2019. Of course they didn’t have good draft capitol but they used some of it on Frank Clark.

This is why the league is so hard. The Seahawks had it good then it got very difficult. Same with the Packers.

The Bills, Browns and Chargers are the best teams in the conference right now. What do they all have in common? They haven’t paid their QB’s yet and have had higher draft picks recently to get things done. The Chargers are the perfect example. They’re good bc they had higher draft picks to get most of their talent. Derwin James, Kenneth Murray, Mike Williams, Joey Bosa, Rashawn Slater. What happens when they don’t pick so high anymore?

Things will get harder for them soon like it is for us.

Convinced the OP and Veach were hooking up

Some of his moves are very very questionable to say the least.


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True


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Primary source of Mahomes
Completely rebuilt defense in one offseason to win SB
Worked an amazing deal for Mahomes
Kept everyone on the team after SB run
Completely rebuilt OL to be young and good again in one offseason

Those are the facts

1. False
2. Technically True? But now the defense sucks again so how good of a "rebuild" was it really?
3. True
4. True (Didn't win again though so WGAF?)
5. Partially true, tackles are still question marks

I'll give you (or anyone else) 2:1 odds on any size you want that we win more than 7 games. Let's see how confident you are in your bitching.

Every GM has hits and misses, dude. There's no doubt that some of Veach's misses are glaring right now. But it wasn't long ago his hits were equally illuminated.

Hint: the truth probably lies somewhere in between.

Veach has "hits"?

The Mathieu signing was good. Besides that?

This is why it’s completely futile to have this discussion with you…

We won the SB and went to another. His drafting has sucked but one shit season he should get one pass. Next season if we fail like this get his ass gone.

Thank you John Dorsey.

His 18, 19 drafts then Clyde in the first in 20 hurt.