How many drafts do though? I mean, you're probably lucky to have a handful of superstar players that emerge from any single draft and another handful of really good players. I would wager they aren't all very obvious, maybe 2 to 3?

If I had to pick 5 guys that truly look like superstars to me, they would be Hutchinson, Thibodeaux, Cross, Lloyd, and Gardner. For 5 more that look like they'll be really good but probably not superstars, I'd go with Ekwonu, Hamilton, Wilson, Penning, and Linderbaum.

Other than those guys, I see mostly solid players or boom/bust prospects. If you hit on the boom, you may have a superstar but if you don't... A handful of those guys might be Stingley, Williams, Walker, Davis, and Willis.

Pickens or Watson at either 29 or 30 would be annoying but I'd probably understand why they did it based off of potential.

**** Skyy Moore with a rusty screwdriver though. I'll be ****ing pissed if they take him.

I just can't understand why they'd take Watson, especially that high.

Shouldn't they have learned their lesson with the development curve of Hardman? Very similar strengths/weaknesses there.

2017 draft had tons of talent but not a lot of obvious blue chip players.

I loved Mahomes that year but a lot of guys that people were pushing early 1st that year such as Corey Davis, OJ Howard, John Ross and Solomon Thomas were blah.

But the you see guys like Tre White still around late 1 and then you had all kinds of value with Godwin, Cooper Kupp, Juju and Kittle after the 1st round.

If they take Watson it tells me they learned nothing after Hardman.

We will teach him to run routes now seems like a bad idea with a high pick.

My only guess would be measurables.

I like Nate Taylor, but **** this at 30.

Just be aware that Taylor has been enamored with Watson for like the last month. He also admits that it's a reach.

You guys DO understand that Watson and Hardman are two different people, right?

Like...just because one guy's a knucklehead and can't quite put it all together has no bearing whatsoever on another individual?

And, for the record-a part of Hardman's issues are sitting behind Tyreek. At that small stature, you really want them at 'Z' so they can get a free run at the line of scrimmage. Hardman was drafted because it looked like Tyreek might be out of the league. His numbers last year were perfectly decent for a #3, and there's no reason to think they won't tick up this year with Hill being gone.

He's not been a world-beater, but the revisionist history on the guy is a bit overboard.

The problem with Hardman is that 3 better WR's were on the board.

DK Metcalf
Terry McLaurin
Diontae Johnson

In retrospect.

Not too many guys out there were thinking any of these guys were going to be amazing players, especially Johnson.

Johnson was a 5'10 WR that ran a 4.53 40, 7.09 3-cone, and played at Toledo. Nobody was jumping up and down for that and people are worried about Skyy Moore and Jahan Dotson...

Metcalf was a measurables guy that wasn't all that great at Ole Miss. Might want to take yourself a gander at his collegiate production, which wasn't much better than Hardman's.

The same goes for McLaurin, who had limited college production and a fast 40 time, on par with Metcalf.

Not a single one of these guys really popped off the page. You can't just sit here now and say "see these guys were on the board!" Hardman turned out to be the worst out of a fairly shitty-looking group of receivers, that all turned out to be pretty good players in the NFL.

It's kind of like having yourself a handful of Christian Watson's to pick from and you just so happen to pick the one guy that's really solid in his role but not a really good outside WR.

The problem with your framing is that it’s all in hindsight. You could literally do this in every draft for every team with one pick or another.

Hardman is still one of the most productive WRs from that class.

Of course you wish they would’ve hit the HR, but talking about it like this in hindsight is just silly.

I had both DK and McLaurin as 1st round talents.

DK was oversold by some as going top ten. I thought he should go in the 20s. Limited route tree but 4 NFL elite ready routes.

Compared Terry to a bigger TY Hilton.

I didn't rank Diontae in a round but loved the player. He had that it factor and was my MAC breakout guy.

4 elite NFL routes? What bullshit is this?

Show posts that you had those opinions. Otherwise this is all speculative bullshit.

I posted a WR board that year on this board.

I'm not going to bother selling you, I don't care.

It's just funny that there is a boilerplate "hindsight" assumed every time Mecole is mentioned.

What don't you understand?

He had a limited route tree and people focused on that but there were several routes that were NFL caliber.

You had those guys as 1st round talents? Yeah, I'd like to see that board.

I find it hard to believe you had McLaurin as a 1st rounder when he had like 1200 career yards versus Campbell who had 1100 his Junior year alone.

It's online. I'll find it.

But DK was not impressive, he was on most mocks.

McLaurin was a nice one admittedly.

You remember the wins, shake off the losses.

I'll be the first to give you kudos if you did. No joke.

I was tipped off on him by someone that coached college football. So I'm not going to take the bow for Terry but yeah, it was a good one.

I was pretty outspoken as wanting him ahead of Hardman.

But again, it just doesn’t matter. We thought we were gonna lose Hill and it happened after most of FA had transpired and right before the draft when our only real shot to replace that speed was the draft.

And nobody provided the wheels that Hardman did.

I hate how it went down but it was largely circumstance. Shit happens.

I was curious and went looking for it but couldn't find it, so its up to you to provide us with it haha. Nothing in two threads on WRs that year.

Apparently, I had DK Metcalf mocked in round 1 and wanted the Chiefs to have nothing to do with him. LOL. The other guy I had mocked in 1 was AJ Brown. I was definitely high on Parris Campbell for KC. I liked Terry Godwin. staylor nailed Hardman as an interest of KC's. Good little nuggets of shit in there though, it was funny to look back at. Almost all of us were wrong about alot of shit that year.

Want to link the threads? I need to go back and see how dumb I was.

The point I was trying to make is that burks has a weakness with running routes. He’s compared to deebo and will likely be used as a gadget player. Let’s assume that if we drafted burks, he’d get a lot of those kind of gadget touches. Watson has also been used a lot as a gadget player. He played RB a lot. Lots of short passes, reverses and runs from the rb position. How much of a drop off would watson be from burks in a gadget role? I’d say apples and oranges. Burks wouldn’t necessarily be a better gadget player. He’s better at breaking tackles but watson is a bigger home run hitter. Watson has the juice to score if he gets some open grass. So, if watson and burks are both good gadget players and watson has the higher ceiling if he develops then it’s not a huge reach for watson in the first. Burks is a consensus 1st round selection. Watson should be close behind him but more like a ziggy ansah selection where his selection is based on traits. And mvs isn’t really a gadget guy? I think your misjudging watsons ability in the open field in a deebo role.

Originally Posted by kcbubb
Funny to me how many of y’all are high on burks but low on watson when they would play the same role? Can you explain that?

Didn't see much where you looked like an idiot.

This was my April 1st round mock with DK and AJ in 1...

https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=322350

A little on guys not to draft:

https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=322111

All of us being not even close on anything re; first 3 picks

https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=321614

Guys talking about trading up for Nasir Adderley, the boards love affair

https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=321522

Early bits on WRs:

https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=321041

Later thread on WRs:

https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=321861

A bit on Celin Ferrell...

https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=321826

So...like...

you mean a go route, a post route, a flag route, and deep out?


LOL.

Because that's about it for Metcalf coming out-and not much more now honestly. He is what he is, and that's huge and fast.



If you think any WR being considered to be drafted can't do that you're nuts.

I would rather take Logan Hall than Watson at 30. Change my mind.

I think it's high for either.

I like Hall though. He could be a really disruptive guy.

Oh my. Hardman has always been more straight line speed than anything else. Go back and look at his highlights. Watson has much better change of direction and acceleration out of breaks. He needs to clean up false steps and rounding off routes but he has the ability to fix that athletically. Hardman is more of a straight line speed guy.

Nasir adderley…. Oh my…. I remember guys being crazy about him. We should all be humble about picks. We all miss as much or more as we are right. Who has gotten the most hate for a pick or a position on a player?

I'd have to imagine that award is going to somebody for either Aaron Curry or Geno Smith. Take your pick.

Lol…. I liked curry too. Boy, was that a bad idea. But I think I might win the all time award for most hate for wanting to trade Justin Houston. That was brutal. I was new to chiefs planet and had no idea what I was in for.

I think taking some beatings has helped me learn a lot about the nfl…

That's a lot of ifs. Which is fine but not in the 1st for me.

My last big WR miss was Hakeem Butler. Incredible athleticism. I thought if he just...

Never happened.

Do you honestly think Christian Watson running those 4 routes will scare a defense the same as DK Metcalf?!

No, I think Watson has a lot more potential than just that.

I think his floor is Always Save Metcalf.

The thing about Metcalf is if he catches the ball running downfield you can't tackle the big sonofabitch. He's just huge.

I think Seattle uses him about as well as it can be done.

But don't act like he's some route running machine; he's a physical freak that can beat you with straight speed, and if he gets the ball he's hard to bring down for little DB's.

Well, since nobody can find your Nostradamus posts on previous WR drafts, I'm calling bullshit.

But I'm also not for Watson in the 1st. There are legit questions. In the second though? Sure. I'd take a shot at the potential.

He’ll be gone. He doesn’t make it past 40. He might go 28 with these wr contracts that are crazy. Again, think ziggy ansah & travon walker. Some of these picks are about the person and the potential. Watson is a good kid and a freak athlete. You’re betting he can be gadget guy year one while you coach him up.

My worst 2 have been:

Dontari Poe - HATED that pick. Absolutely ****ing hated it. Thought the guy was a 3rd round project.

Jon Baldwin - Pretty sure that was the same draft as Julio Jones and I was convinced we'd gotten the same player 20 spots later and without having to trade up.

I agree. But I think it is fair to point out that if we are willing to reach on a guy, there are a lot of guys we should consider. I picked Hall because both should be available at 30, but have a decent probability to be gone by 50.

I’m seeing a lot of Skyy Moore being mocked to us.

I would like one of these in the first

Treylon Burks
Chris Olave

And one of these in the second round

George Pickens
Khalil Shakir

****ing Brugler has us taking Watson in his final mock.

If it happens, it means they're comfortable with his character and his commitment to being great as well as being able to digest Andy's X's and O's tests.

I have no idea, and while I've been a defender of the kid, I'm not advocating they do take him in the first.

But IF they do...

Exactly this, Andy and Veach know way more about these guys then we ever will. So, if they feel like Watson is who they want I'll trust them.

Who else?

DraftKings has Christian Watson over/under at 39.5 at -115.

Dotson at -140 to go earlier than 30.5

Moore at -115 to go later than 35.5

Burks at -124 to go earlier than 23.5

Pickens at -160 to later than 36.5

That's why I want to see a small move up for Burks, get ahead of Green Bay.

Mafe.

Brugler also has Drake Jackson going to GB at 28. Karlaftis going at 23.

Yeah....this inspires confidence.

That just screams...."HE'S BIG AND FAST!"

They also took CEH. And were comfortable with Breeland Speaks commitment to being great. And Hardman's ability to digest the Xs and Os.

It's never a wise idea to simply check your own opinions at the door.

These guys DO get it wrong from time to time.

Analytics...who cares about routes!

I will say though route running is something a good coaching staff can develop- Tyreek Hill being the most recent and obvious example. From fantastic athlete to maybe the most dangerous threat in the NFL, Tyreek came along way from his draft day. Even this most recent season with the way defenses were playing him over the top, he had to refine his route running to win routes within the first 12 yards.

Watson has that type of potential if you can unlock it. The lack of physicality doesn't concern me as much, I just need a receiver to win their routes and create separation.

Hill was way better coming into the NFL then people want to give him credit for.

Yup.

Hill had an innate ability to run routes from the moment he took the field. It's revisionist history to act like he was some RB out there running go routes.

His footwork and agility in/out of his breaks was always top shelf. That guy was born to play the position.

That’s the gamble…. That watson has shown enough footwork and change of direction ability to get better at route running. I do think his gadget ability is not emphasized enough. He has those deebo like plays in him in space. Not sure why this ability isn’t valued here.

I'm not suggesting that they took an elite athlete who had zero idea how to play receiver and turned him into one of the best in the NFL. It's obvious Hill was a natural for the position, but that being said most of his production came from gadget plays (reverses, sweeps, screens) and go routes his rookie season. His ability to play receiver from year 1 to his last season as a Chief has substantially gotten better. Not that he couldn't run routes in his rookie season but I think it's undeniable that he leaned heavily on his athleticism in his rookie year while as the years went on he had everything in his arsenal to throw at defenses.

That's not what we are arguing though- can Christian Watson who himself is a phenomenal athlete develop into a true #1 WR? If Watson didn't have any holes in his game we wouldn't be talking about being able to draft him at #29. High risk, high potential undoubtedly but I believe that our coaching staff would be able to get the most out of this player especially in our offense that wouldn't require him to carry the bulk of the load early on.

I can think of 2 players that got way better at route running from college to the NFL.

Tyreek Hill and Steve Smith.

Theoretically possible but as dumb as drafting a DE high with limited pass rush moves and poor hands.

Are you ****ing serious?

2 players got better at route running when they joined the NFL?

you know of TWO?

This wins for dumbest post I've ever seen.

EVER.

they ALL do, or they're selling used cars very quickly.

Dumb.

I can think of two.


Read what I wrote and stop making up stuff and crying like a girl.

No, just take it back. You literally said the dumbest, most ignorant thing I've ever read on a football board.

I will award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.

hey let me help you here, champ-

Make yourself a list of all of the HOF wide receivers that weren't taken in, say, the top ten picks of the first round. Okay? so picks #11-all the way to Mr. Irrelevant. Round 'em all up, and make yourself a list, ok?

Now there is just a start to looking at WR's that got way better at route running after entering the NFL.

But that's literally just the tip of the iceberg.

you could do the same exercise and add all of the Pro Bowl WR's ever that weren't taken top ten. So, let's get to work on that too.

But even that list wouldn't be complete! You could probably safely add in every WR not taken in, say, the first 50 picks but somehow became a quality starter in the NFL. That's a safe bet to add to our list, too.

Nope. If you're too.dumb to understand it, its on you.

Of course players get better. But way fewer players transform into something totally different than what they were in college.

Do you believe Mecole Hardman is similar to Terry McLaurin as a WR?

Man, just stop.

You said something really dumb. Don't die on that Hill.

See what I did there? LOL

It was dumb.

Boring.

Don't go trying to move the goalposts.

you know that was a dumb thing to say.

Just move on.

You actually are a good poster on football.

Sorry, but your WR takes are bad.

All you've ever done is post bullshit on WR's.

You claim a bunch of Nostradamus shit you supposedly said with no proof. Nobody can find it. Shocking.

You say nobody's gotten way better at running routes, which is, of course, utter bullshit. All of these guys have to get better because they got away with some shit they won't be able to in the NFL. There's a word for WR's that don't get significantly better: it's called BUST. Then you want to move the goalposts.

you're full of shit on WR's.

You can turn off caps lock now grandpa.

My takes on the 2022 WR's:

Olave-does everything pretty well. I don't really see a gamebreaker. Probably going to be a good player, but is he worth multiple #1s to go get? No, I don't think so.

Garrett Wilson-I see a little more explosion than with Olave; a little more suddenness and looks to me to have an extra gear. worth multiple #1s? No, I don't think so.

London-looks like a less physical Mike Evans, and I don't think that'll play. I think he's a bust in the first.

Jameson Williams-he's explosive, he's a quick twitch guy, he's a really good Wr prospect-and he's also hurt. He's probably a wash in year one. Would I spend multiple #1's for him? Nope.

Burks-looks like a LB playing WR. He's not FAST per se, but he does have a second gear. I see AJ Brown, which is a useful player. I'd take him if he fell but I wouldn't go get him.

Watson-boom or bust. #2 RAS in 35 years, out of 2,613 WR's at the combine. He'll be as great as he wants to be. What the answer to that is, I have no idea. Knowing what I know, I wouldn't take him in the first, but I would in the 2nd. Reid and Veach know more than we do.

Pickens-he's an ass. But he seems to be a hard working ass, blocks hard, plays with a chip on his shoulder. I'd take him. I think as long as he doesn't embarass off the field we can handle and harness that attitude.

Metchie-I don't see as much separation between Metchie and Williams as draftniks seem to. I think Metchie has just as much upside, and would be a great player in this offense.

Moore-I just don't see anything special here. I think he's a slot WR that can move the chains, but not a difference maker. There are no definable elite traits.

how's that? That's my take on the top WR's.

What's so unreasonable about that?

Uhh, one word is in caps.

Now we're trying to sling some insults, all because I pointed out that you said something really stupid. Ok.

Tell you what.

Me vs You.

You're convinced you're some kind of WR guru and every player you like has untapped potential. Since I'm not as smart as you, contest.

You get Christian Watson. I will take a player drafted after the 1st round to beat him.

Deal?

and now you want to move the goalposts to a completely different game.

I'm not the one claiming to be a WR guru, you literally have done exactly that-claiming that you had Hardman, McLaurin and Metcalf all nailed. Yet nobody can find any such thing.

I'm but a semi-knowledgeable fan. I watch some video, I read multiple scouting reports from different sources, and I think about what my eyes tell me from watching football my entire life. I love the chess match, personally, that's my favorite thing about the NFL. I make educated guess based on all of those things.

I'm no guru. As I've said many, many times-I'm not advocating for Watson in round 1. I think the questions about his rawness are legit. I think questions about the athletic ability are not. I think category one is serious enough that I wouldn't take him in round one but I would take him in the 2nd. IF Veach and Reid take him in round one, it's because they're confident in the kid's desire to be great and handle the Reid offense. IF they do, then I'll defer to them on that.

But I wouldn't. Don't try to paint this like I'm dying on the Watson hill. I'm just keeping the conversation honest and based in logic.

You're the one that's only seen two WR's get way better at route running from college to the NFL.

I say that if that's true, you haven't seen much football.
LOL

So you going to play or not?

If you're chicken on Watson now take anyone else not projected top 40.

I'll play. Call your WR.

Nobody has to die. Just one of us.

Alright, Jon Snow.

I'll tell you what:

John Metchie will outperform 50% of the WR's taken before him in years 2 and 3. First year's likely a wash, but will be for Jameson too. Rawer guys have a year to get coached up. Years 2 and 3.

That's my deal. That's the hill I pick.

let's make this contest a sticky, put it up top there in this forum, and I'll see you in 2024.

And you still said you'd only seen two WR's get way better at route running from college to the NFL.

No goalpost moving can erase that. No name calling can push it down in our consciousness.

you said it, you won't admit that was dumb, and we all seen't it.

:)

Cool. Metchie is solid, I expect he will be around the NFL for a while..though I don't see much upside. I value him like Zach Pascale.

I take Khalil Shakir, Boise State.

Obviously situation can put any pick in usage danger but I like my guy well enough that I'll ride with the risk.

Girls, girls, girls - you're both pretty.

Oh wait, that's not true.

Mahomes, you're ugly and evidently as dumb as a bag of hammers.