The Chiefs had a set of plays designed for Skyy Moore this week, but didn't use them.

OMG it's almost as if this is exactly what I've been saying!

Except for Mahomes apparently :D

I don’t think that’s the case. But especially this season it will be harder for a rookie. Hardman is their best bet right now bc he’s got the most experience. Juju and MVS are vets and Watson has been in the NFL for years.

Skyy is not Tyreek. Any comparison to play time is not realistic. He’s the outlier. Not every rookie is gonna be blowing the doors off. Chris Conley’s first 2 games with us had 7% and 2% of the snaps. It just takes time for some dudes.

And honestly with these struggles I’d bet they are leaning on the vets right now to build rhythm.

If Hardman still stinks it up for a few more weeks he’ll be in the doghouse again. Just watch. He got benched for Pringle last year.

We need to revisit this at mid season

Nah, overreacting 3 games into his career makes way more sense.

lol. I mean is it really any difference outside of the position? I don't think you can say Reid will get whoever is talented on the field immediately regardless if they are a rookie and ignore the most talented player this franchise has ever had sitting on the bench for a year. They knew in practice he was better than AS.

Hardman has a bum wheel. Im not sure what people are expecting him to do. Dude took an end-around and then limped off. It's looking like it'll be a pain management thing for him at least for a little while. And he's not a physical guy as it is.

Seems like an excellent chance to give a young guy some reps but that didn't happen.

No - you've been saying Andy Reid doesn't play rookies and that's why this turn key ass-kicker isn't making plays.

When it turns out he was TRYING to look for situations to get him the football but because the kid has a limited set of plays he can run at the moment, they weren't able to find the right time. Or when they did 'the defense didn't cooperate'. So for the record, those would've been Mecole Hardman Memorial "Schemed into space" yards so they don't count.

But yeah - you're all over it.

And rumors were they wanted to get him on the field. They knew what they had. And suffice to say, a QB has a lot more to learn than a WR.

Never mind the politics at play with Alex Smith.

Overreaction planet is crazy. Our WR’s suck and nobody got open yesterday except that narrative is completely false. The 2nd and 3rd plays on offense had guys wide open and Patrick missed ‘em.

The OL killed is yesterday. Say what you want about the receivers. No they aren’t Tyreek, but they did get separation at times.

The problem was our OL and RB’s.

How many times did I say that the rookie excuse isn't for an entire season? Or did you not actually read my posts?

I'm using that as an excuse for the first 3 games, which I think is completely reasonable.

I have been saying throughout this thread that I fully expect his role to grow as the season goes on which is exactly what Andy is saying there.

It's EXACTLY the scenario where you'd expect to see Moore as a bigger part of the gameplan if it were something Reid were looking to prioritize.

But he isn't. Despite the fact that he's done exactly this sort of thing with rookies in the past.

And there's SOME reason for that. Sure sounds like he needs a 'package of plays' to generate production so maybe he's not ready yet. {gasp}

"it's almost as if this is exactly what I've been saying!"

I agree. This post is pretty damning towards Andy and EB

Sounded like bullshit coach speak to me.

"Couldn't find the right time" aka we didn't build up a lead to have time to **** around.

Because in a game where we scored 17 points there wasn't a "right time" to unleash these plays?

Any sort of moment to generate offense seemed like the right time.

They were so badly in need of offense they busted out the goddamn flea flicker.

It could just as easily be considered damning towards Moore.

Besides, I think they may just be running a little cover for the kid. He was NOT in a good mindset after that first punt gack and the 2nd punt pretty clearly demonstrated it.

It's possible they were just trying to keep things from snowballing on him. Because all else being equal, it does seem like a perfect opportunity and if they had a package for him, that suggests they might have realized that as well.

But then they shelved them. So is it some nebulous "well our 1st downs weren't great" answer or is it just as likely (if not moreso) that it was really "hey, we don't want to further mind-**** the kid and if he's not in a great state of mind right now, it only increases the odds of that sort of thing happening..."

And that's especially the case if they intended to keep him on the return unit. I mean if he drops/fumbles a ball and then a couple minutes later has to field ANOTHER punt...yikes. That's just a disaster waiting to happen, especially with as poorly as Indy was moving the football.

Flea Flicker: Right play at the right time.

Moore package: Naaaaah.

Highly suspect.

I am not disagreeing with you just pointing it out. If Skyy continues to not get many snaps\targets\receptions as the season progresses we have a problem.

Also a possibility and an even less flattering one.

"Well we couldn't pull out the blowout scripts so we didn't get the ball to him..."

In either event, kinda hard to take that at face value. As you noted, it doesn't really pass the sniff test.

Also mine, but a lot of people were furious at the idea of using a high pick on a WR. I honestly liked Moore and I'm hopeful, but 100% this needs to be a team loaded on offence and just doing enough on D. Unless there is an insane DE that falls into our laps I hope the 2023 draft is focused on WR and OT.

All the rest in Chris' OP I could get behind, I'd add some new ideas on the OL and general offence to that list. I'm all about Wanogho. It'll probably be a car crash but I wanna see the Prince become a King!

It's normally been on the other side of the ball but it's not like this coaching staff hasn't somewhat of a history of baffling personnel choices.

Wanogho only got 8 snaps yesterday, but he didn't look bad at all.

I'd like to see more of him.

The flea flicker play, man. The moment they busted that out i knew shit wasn't going well.

When do you see the Chiefs run some unoriginal gimmick shit like that under Mahomes?

That play SCREEEEEAMED, "we gotta figure out some real gimicky shit to get our guys open".

That was a really troubling play for them to run, imo.

Coupled with the fake punt.....**** me if the playcalling wasn't starting to feel a bit desperate.

And why would the coaches call some minor-league offense shit like that? Because dudes weren't getting open with traditional routes....

I was reminded of the Patriots going to flea-flickers and shit when they couldn't move the ball and how we all said "Look man - these guys KNOW they can't win straight up..."

Pawnmower, in his brilliance, advised me to fornicate myself.

It was extremely apparent in real time that play was a harbinger of some real 'oh shit, what now?' thought processes from the coaching staff but you just can't get some folks to pay attention these days...

Exactly. Patriots entered my head too.

That play was an eye opener.

True, and I felt the same way, but it worked...:shrug:

My real concern, as demonstrated most obviously with Clark and Hitchens, is that they're doubly sketchy about that stuff when the people in question are 'splash' signings.

I don't know that MVS qualifies, but I'm betting JuJu does given our flirtation with him the year prior.

Again - I really hope they get Moore out there sooner rather than later. And as we discussed in the other thread, I'd start him with Watson as well. I hope they don't hold on too long w/ MVS and JJSS because I'm just not seeing anything impressive out of them. JuJu's catch and run was nice because Pat did put the ball a little too far into his body and he did a nice job concentrating and gathering for YAC yards, but then on the pick that ended the game he just drifted through his cut and let that DB dive under him for the deflection. That just can't happen for a 'physical, possession WR' like him.

Not at that point in the game where you KNOW they're going to be diving on underneath routes and you've been brought in specifically to fight through that kind of contact and get that catch. That was a JJSS moment and he just didn't fight for the ball.

Then we went back to the grab bag and shot ourselves squarely in the foot.

The problem with trick plays isn't that they never work. It's that relatively speaking they don't work that often and when they fail it's a REAL cluster****.

If you could win games without ever running a single trick play, you'd do it. Running a flea-flicker against an also-ran sure tells me the coaches aren't sure if they're a team that can do that right now.

This is from a recent Nate Taylor piece on Mahomes and his new WR's. It is long but I thought this was interesting and might help explain some things and why there maybe some early struggles especially with Skyy. He will need to be on the same page as Pat.

Just heard the latest Chris Simms podcast and yeah, he is in fact ripping the playcalling. Stating that the Chiefs have been more or less arrogant and just calling plays they think are cool and just expecting them to work regardless of what the defense is doing. "No plan of attack" he says.

Couple that with McCoy's comments....EB's inability to land a job....i think things are becoming quite clear.

There's smoke developing here.

yep

It goes all the way back to last year. There was some stat posted about Mahomes’ percentage of passes with air yards being beyond 20 yards in 2021 at 9.7% which was 30th in the NFL. This year that number is apparently down to 9.2% so far. Something isn’t right, even when we still had Hill.

Yeah. EB.

When you can’t run the ball and your left tackle is a turnstile what plays will work? I was hoping they’d let EB go but I think the line, specifically LT was the main issue yesterday.


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I just can't get there.

I don't think Reid just hands him the keys. And if I had to guess, I'd say Nagy is more involved in the passing game than Bieniemy is anyway.

May just be a little organizational stasis. The fact that we had such a dominant IOL last year AND Tyreek Hill AND Wylie/OBJ were no worse than average as a T unit....it just doesn't check out.

I guess we just have to start stringing quality drives together with short passes and interior running to get those guys coming downhill before we can go over top of them again.

But I agree with you in that it's weird as hell. Andy has strong WCO roots and I wonder if he's not retreating back to them a bit in the face of all this shell bullshit.

When your tackles can't hold a block, you don't have time to throw downfield.

Yeah couldn't agree more on JJSS and MVS. They're going to hang on too long.

The Chiefs have released K Matt Ammendola from the practice squad. He struggled in Sunday's loss to the Colts

Per Field Yates

Interesting thought. The WCO is predicated more on stretching the field horizontal rather than vertically. Maybe that's why he's so obsessed with the OZ running and all that.

Huh?

My thinking is that Reid plays a heavy hand in the scripts and pregame prep, and EB is calling the plays.

Exactly.

It's all about using the sidelines to create space from about 8-20 yards and quick timing routes shorter than that.

But g'damn Andy - this ain't Joe Montana's bad-back and failing arm here fella. It ain't Jeff Garcia.

You have a thoroughbred my man. I feel like there's more we can do with him here.

He has had deep stuff every game there. Pat has missed it.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">a Rodney Thomas fingertip (and Trey Smith holding penalty) away from a facemelting Mahomes throw <a href="https://t.co/gzpqophl1m">pic.twitter.com/gzpqophl1m</a></p>&mdash; Nate Tice (@Nate_Tice) <a href="https://twitter.com/Nate_Tice/status/1574512976656183296?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 26, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Prime example here.

First off people will be pissed at the OL in this situation I'm sure. That's a well blocked play IMO.

Look at where the throw is.

Throw it out in front and bullshit holding penalty non withstanding, it's a walk in touch down.

Yup - I was saying the same thing. It's even more obvious from the other end zone view - you see Watson break open and it just looks like easy money.

Ignore the penalty and just look at the ball placement. He had an area he could land a plane in to throw that to and he put it back into Watson's body.

The penalty nullified the issue, but it was indicative of something we saw from him most of the day. His ball placement just wasn't very good. Lots of balls that were about a yard away from where he probably wanted them.

Which is really strange for him. Maybe the rest actually had him rusty? Because that's just not like him at all.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">oh ya this guy is leading the NFL in EPA per dropback <a href="https://t.co/AH5bglwWD8">pic.twitter.com/AH5bglwWD8</a></p>&mdash; Nate Tice (@Nate_Tice) <a href="https://twitter.com/Nate_Tice/status/1574514397795405824?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 26, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I mean, look at this. That's as perfect as you can do it. Just catch it Trav

Yeah, I thought the same thing.

It really seems to me it's some of that trust stuff from last year again. Get the hell over it and just rip it man.

Best thing I can say about it is that it took a HELL of a play to break it up. And we say it all the time but in those situations where you look like you have a field to put the ball into, the absolute LAST thing you can do is overthrow it. Whatever you do, don't put it somewhere where your WR doesn't have a chance.

Maybe that was his thought. That Thomas had no prayer of recovering so he was putting it right into Watson's body to make sure that the pass was completed, rather than possibly leading him too far and not giving him a chance to make a play.

Balls to the walls Mahomes doesn't have that thought for a second. It never even occurs to him he might miss so he puts it right where he thinks the perfect spot would be every time. Here he may have just overthought it.

It's back to that MVS throw early in the game.

He just won't put more air under those suckers. Let the dude run under it, give yourself some room for error there.

Look at the touch on that ball. Just a pillow soft little feather in there.

Yeah - you really need that to be a catch. I know it's not easy, but it's a back-shoulder throw. That plays about 15 years old now. Guys have been doing it for a decade and Kelce's stolen a lot of dudes lunch with that same play.

Just so many things went wrong Sunday, man. So very many.

Exactly.

And maybe that throw was in the back of his mind somehow? He knew, everyone knew, that if he just doesn't try to make a perfect throw there to MVS, that's an easy adjustment and a likely walk-in for a TD.

So maybe his response was that throw to Watson. He wasn't trying to make it perfect.

It's a razor thin edge to walk.

I think they're literally 2 TD's better than Indy. Matt Ryan is a shell and our defense abused him.

Just make the plays you normally make and we're fine.

Guys, lets step back from the ledge here.

Throw it high and towards the Goaline. There's so much room back there man.

Damn it.

This is also back to what Detox and I were talking about earlier, this is what I was talking about.

When he plays like that in the pocket there, he's the best QB in the league. Bar none.

Don't rely on the backyard stuff. Do that. You're a machine when you do.

If the Chiefs played their typical game, the score would have been 38-10.


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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">JuJu has been respectable in 2/3 weeks. 31st among WRs in yards per route run...<br><br>but MVS (67th) and Hardman (70th) are providing little early on. Skyy Moore can&#39;t find the field.<br><br>As a byproduct, targets to RBs (17.6% -&gt; 18.9%) and TEs (25.3% -&gt;31.1%) are up.</p>&mdash; Rich Hribar (@LordReebs) <a href="https://twitter.com/LordReebs/status/1574516925450829824?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 26, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

The problem with the off platform stuff is it just makes it so hard to be accurate on deep passes. That deep pass to Watson looked almost perfect but probably doesn’t get tipped if he leads the receiver and uses a little more air. He threw quite a few passes behind his guys too. Odd because kelce usually can still haul those in. Much as I hate overhyping tua the truth is that mahomes hasn’t taken full advantage of the deep ball throughout his career. sometimes gets overthrown because he doesn’t step into it. Often times out of necessity because he can’t step into it.

Mahomes looks like he really put the time into using his pocket. He’s doing a much better job sliding around. But the offense is really forcing him to be laser accurate with crazy windows and throwing platforms, assuming anyone is even open. It’s a new problem where before he had receivers who bought themselves space or he could scramble around outside to create open space for a window. His slipperiness in the pocket has added something new to his game. It’s just a damn shame we aren’t giving him the players or scheme to really take advantage.

Still it would be nice to give him more opportunities to step into a deep throw.

Look at his feet

There sure as **** is lots of moaning in this thread about a rookie WR 3 games in instead of the actual problems.

A rookie WR that never did return punts maybe shouldn't be returning punts. I dunno, maybe that's why I hoped they'd keep Coleman on the roster all off-season much to my chagrin. Lots of CP brain trust lobbied for exactly what the Chiefs did. Well, eat the shit sandwich you wanted to be served.

Reid needs to tell Toub to fix it, and the rest of his horrendous special teams so far this season. It's been shit in most facets.

Rookie WR probably doesn't know the playbook well enough to get more snaps yet. It likely is for no other reason. It's probably not his ability to beat the guy across from him because he's shown some talent doing that in the preseason and even a little in the season. If he doesn't know where he's going every snap though, that's a liability. Reid would play him if he were gauged to be playable. Give him some time, he's not a ****ing failure yet just as much as he hasn't been your savior.

What else has failed? This ****ing offensive line, especially the tackles. Can't fix it this year, have to wait until the offseason. What can Reid do? More chipping to help, shorten up the drops, shorten the route tree, and throw in some play-action if they can ever prove to run the ball. That's probably it. It doesn't play into Mahomes' talents but it plays into not getting the guy killed and probably helps Mahomes at the same time in establishing some rapport with his receivers.

The RBs have also failed. See the ****ing hole and hit it. Reid needs to bench these guys if they can't see a whole wide enough for a semi to change directions in. They aren't always there, but these backs can't routinely miss the ones that are and would give this team a 30-50 yard spark they need sometimes.

Mahomes has failed at times too. He needs to start taking what the defense gives at times instead of trying to force the bigger play. Take those swing passes in the flats that will open up the middle of the field later. Take the 5 yards instead of pushing for 15 and missing. This team is built for death by 1000 paper cuts. It needs to figure the rest out. Mahomes isn't helping it. It sucks, I want to watch Mahomes throwing bombs too, but this team just isn't built for it routinely.

I'm so over reading constant bitching about a goddamned rookie WR. Not too many other rookie WRs out there looking too special yet either, especially 2nd rounders.

Well, he runs around for his life on way too many plays, even if it's needless. It's so blatantly obvious he doesn't trust his OL and that plays a part in his overall fundamentals taking a pretty steep decline. Honestly don't know what the immediate solution here is outside of Brown just spontaneously playing back up to standard.

Yeah it's trust issues all over the offense. He doesn't trust the line to block for long and he doesn't trust WRs to get open. If Brown can just be solid, it would help out both issues. Mahomes will feel less rushed to try to make magic and WRs will have more time to get open. Cause regardless of how good or bad they are, no defense can hold up holding receivers for more than a few seconds at a time.

WRs also need to get better at scramble drills. There were too many times where Mahomes would extend a play and still not have anywhere to go with the ball. Even shitty ass DeMarcus Robinson was good at getting open when Mahomes would give him extra time to get open.

It just feels like everything is rushed right now.

While I agree. The Pats also won a lot because of top 10 defenses, and Brady being the league darling. The defense may be coming around, but Mahomes will never be the league darling as shown by the way the refs refuse to protect him like other elite quarterbacks.

I don't know why you think criticism of a play or game or player/coach at a certain time extends to infinity. People are talking about what they're seeing so far. Yes things could change, but we're talking about this game and the last 3 weeks.

No one here has said Skyy will suck all season, just questioning why as of right now, he's getting virtually no reps and as of now is a net negative to the team. I thought he would be slow rolled but still with the quality of receivers we have right now, get decent looks week to week. That hasn't happened. Our WRs aren't good and one is even injured and ineffective and Skyy still can't get reps. Either the coaches are slow rolling him to the point it's a detriment to the team or he's really not picking up the playbook at all.

This ongoing debate that DJ and I are having about Moore goes back to the draft process.

As for the lack of playing time 3 weeks in, I've addressed that multiple times. If it's an ongoing issue throughout the season, then fine, but I don't suspect it will be, which is why I think a lot of the talk about his lack of snaps is a typical CP overreaction.

It’s much more than that. Matt Verderame did a chat today and noted that the Jags killed the Colts with screens last week. Indy couldn’t stop it and they just kept doing it.

Guess how many screens we ran? One. And it was a good gain.

Why wouldn’t we keep doing that?

Also I agree with him that this offense wants too many big plays too much instead of just taking what the defense gives them. No bigger proof of that then the 2nd play on offense where Clyde is wide open in the flat, Kelce is pointing at him to throw it that way and Patrick ignores him to look downfield for tight windows.

They are playing like Tyreek is still here and they shouldn’t be

It makes no sense why we don't run more screens. Haven't made sense in years and especially now. Clyde actually looks good receiving this year. We also have McKinnon whose a good receiver and has been good on screens and apparently Pacheco has good hands. Use that shit. Get your lineman out in space. Slow down the pass rush. That will open the offense up a lot.

But like what was posted about what Chris Simms said earlier, we're playing with no plan.

That may be true in this case, but are you self aware enough to admit you see everything through homer glasses?

To a point. He wasn’t always the league darling. But you are correct about the defense. But he also had a solid line which allowed him to do more with less. Imagine what Pat could do if he had that kind of protection.

Funny how I'm not a Miami Hurricanes homer.

It's almost as if its easy to be optimistic when you have a great team, coaching staff, and front office.

Not my fault that the Chiefs often draft prospects that I like either.

*reads thread*

I think it's time for a beer.

I'm sitting here watching the Cowboys chuck it deep and thinking our WR's aren't any worse really than what they have (other than Lamb, of course). Their QB is Cooper ****ing Rush and they're still pushing the ball downfield.

I think I'm in agreement with O.City. Mahomes is going to have to start throwing the ball better. He's going to have to trust these guys more than he does. He just doesn't have a choice at this point.

This. Playcalling needs to get a lot better.

I also think that Reid and EB are doing the same shit they did to Patrick in the SB against the Bucs.

The plays they are calling are absolutely screwing Mahomes and the offensive line over.

There are quick hitting slants and crossing play calls that would take pressure off the offensive line, and allow Mahomes to get into a rhythm without feeling like he has to protect himself on every passing play.

Yet, Reid and EB continue to call plays that have Mahomes holding the ball waiting for something to come open down field.

Not only are the plays they are calling hindering the offense, but it puts a clock in Mahomes' head, and it causes him to move in the pocket, or flat out escape the pocket, when he does not need to, and that fact hurts our chances of running successful plays later in games.

I very much believe that EB needs to be stripped of the OC title, and that role given back to Matt Nagy. Even if EB doesn't truly call plays, it's obvious that EB and Mahomes are no longer simpatico.

They have had words on the sidelines in 3 or our last 4 games, the AFC Championship game against Cincy, the Chargers game, and now the Colts game. Something needs to change, and it isn't Patrick Mahomes II.

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100%

Yup, and that’s what bugs me about the mvs Hardman thing. They seem to march out speed guys instead of guys who can open up quickly. It means we didn’t learn anything from last year.

I missed 50% of this game so not sure exactly which play this was but...

Mahomes misses deep over the shoulder throws more than almost any elite QB in the league. He just doesn't have the touch sometimes. He's better when he can hit deep crosses etc where he can put some zip on the ball.

The Tyreek unknown forced the Mecole pick, a perceived Tyreek clone... It would be interesting to see what direction we would have went if it wasn't an issue... I don't think we would have went receiver.

Do we once AGAIN need to clarify my position in re: Moore?

The part where I said the guy is likely to have a very good career? Like, 6-8 years and 4-5K yards with 400ish catches? Or where I comped him to Sterling Shepard with a shot at being Golden Tate?

King is 100% right - your issue is that you see any real time discussion or {gasp} criticism of a player as some wholesale dismissal of anything he'll ever be. And there were people trying to call this kid the best WR prospect in the !@#$ing draft and when I have the audacity to point out he wasn't among the first dozen taken for a reason, you feel honor bound to paint me into some corner. And I'm the one that needs to dial it down a peg? Get the **** outta here with that.

I'm begging the Chiefs to start the guy because I think this WR room is ass. And is that a good place to find ourselves? Oh hell no - asking a guy with obvious flaws to be the 'savior' of a contender as a rookie. But shit, if I bother to point out that Brett Veach assembled this WR room and put us in this position, that'll put your goddamn panties in a twist as well.

You will not allow criticism, no matter how tepid or how measured, of ANYONE associated with the Chiefs until such time as it becomes such an overwhelming consensus that you can either ride the wave or be swept away by it. Even when the criticism is literally nothing more than a snapshot analysis - which is almost exclusively what Detox and I have offered of Moore to this point while simultaneously voicing our hope and belief that there's more there to offer.

Its ludicrous. But keep on patting yourself on the back for being 'open-minded' I guess. I just don't understand why you feel as though you have some unassailable high ground here when anyone deigns to say "hey, this looks like a slot WR" or "man, he must be more raw than we thought if he's not seeing the field yet..." when there has been exactly ZERO evidence actually presented to this point by anyone to disprove either position.

It was still a dumb thought process thinking you HAVE to have a Tyreek clone. But hey, it's also the same brain trust that thought you could take fat **** Breeland Speaks and make him a 3-4 OLB, or the ones who thought a tackle with known athletic limitations could play left tackle in a passing offense. There's a whole lot that hasn't made sense about the team building process, like building an elite interior OL while failing to field decent tackles, or drafting a RB in the first round. The results clearly speak for themselves.

Yup. And Schwartz and Fisher.

This is just much different personnel and it should be treated accordingly. They need to dumb it down, dirty it up, and battle through.

That's not to say turn into a bunch of ground and pound mongoloids - but they do need to change their running style and see what they can do to convert to a more conventional drop-back and PA style passing game.

And literally every single member of this staff would eviscerate me in terms of pure football knowledge, right down to the water boys. So it makes me wonder if hubris isn't at the heart of it.

Because NOBODY is immune from getting cut down by their pride.

If on #4 you mean fired, I'm with you.