I dunno about labeling our young pitching as CY young quality just yet, but I understand what your getting at.



I'm not as big on Hamels, but I'd love to have Greinke. If you could sign him to a deal and pair him with Wainwright that would be pretty solid.


You aren't likely going to have to give up all of your young pitching either.

Any idea when we might see Miller with the big club?

He sucks badly right now.

His velocity is way down, his command is garbage. He's probably the 4th or 5th best option for our rotation in the minor leagues at the moment.

He's a better bet to get traded than he is to see the show right now. He needs to un-**** himself in a hurry because if he's throwing 92 mph with no fastball command and the same unpolished off-speed stuff he had coming into the season, he's no future ace; he's just another 5th starter.

I remember the same shit being said about wainwright. remember??? The Cardinals were stupis to be calling up a minor leaguer underperforming instead of trading for a more telented reliever. Remember.....

I disagree with your assesment. Almost every great pitcher goes through this in the minors. They are still maturing, making high school mistakes. They have been coodled all their lives and now they have to listen to authority and change. It's not easy. Maybe he never listens and changes. Thats what happened to Reyes.

But, if he gets his act together according to the majority of scouts his upside goes all the way to Cy Young level. Why would you trade that possibility for a rental?

to get Grienke or Hamels its going to take Cox, Miller and Adams.

You really want to give up that future for a rental? We need a ballclub in 2014. Why mortgage the future now? We just won the World Series last ****ing year. We are going to have another Cardinals era start in 2014.

Not almost every great pitcher loses 4 mph off their fastball. The pitchers that lose 4 mph from their fastball AND lose command of it are usually hiding an injury....if they're lucky. The alternative is that they just start to degrade faster than some.

Oh, and put that CY crap in your pocket. You keep going to that well and it's absurd. The landscape is absolutely littered with players that dominated AA and then could never learn to harness their secondary pitches and ended up little more than a back of the rotation starter.

The 'majority of scouts' loved his velocity at 18 years old. He was throwing an easy 98 and could cruise at 94. Now he's lucky to hit 94 and is working in the 91 range. He has dominated the lower levels with his fastball so his secondary offerings are still seen as 'raw' to the point that he's been ordered not to shake off his catcher.

If he's a 22 year old kid with 94 mph heat and unrefined off-speed stuff, that makes him the same level prospect as Trevor Rosenthal and Joe Kelly. And history shows us that most kids that lose velocity in their early 20s don't just regain it.

He's struggled for half a season now and it's not just been the results. The stuff isn't there. He's not getting beat because this level is able to turn on his heat. He's getting beat because his heat just isn't that great anymore. And when your entire hype is built on being a power pitcher, not having that power to go to makes you destined for the back of a rotation or long-relief.

There's a 50/50 shot that he's a 12 months away from being a fading asset. We have 4 guys in the high minors that are considered premium pitching prospects (Miller, Rosenthal, Martinez and Jenkins); 2 of them will fail. The math doesn't lie. Those 4 pitchers are not all going to be what we thought they would be.

Oh, and as to Wainwright, I'm not buying your recollection. Wainwright destroyed the world in Spring Training and made the team out of camp. I think you're making shit up here to fit your narrative. Wainwright was seen by most as a young kid that simply stole a spot on the team and proceeded to dominate from the moment he hit the ground. He most assuredly wasn't a callup that struggled in AAA that people were ringing their hands over.

I lived in that era. I know was was being written and said. It was a big topic. Why are they putting a starter into a relief role, a 93 MPH fastball will get killed in relief.

I understand your point that not everyone makes it to the big show. And I agree. Thats why you hang onto your blue chips. They have the best chance to make it. You play the odds.

The bottom line is that the Cardinals dont need to act out of deperation. This isnt the last year of a window that wont open again for who knows how many years in the future.

Stay the course. See what kind of reliever help you can get for Cox and keep your bullets for future battles.

We'll be checking out the AA Cardinals down in Texas tonight. Kevin Siegrist pitching.

Heading over to Memphis tomorrow, and will have a front row seat to see Shelby Miller pitch. Curious to see this kid up close.

YOU WON'T EVER GET THAT 85 TROPHY, BASTARDS!!!

[/drive by]

No worries, we have 11 others.

Any chance you guys would take Francouer for Beltran, straight up? Beltran's heart is still here, you know.

We'll even throw in the SUPER FAST Jarrod Dyson! Act quickly!

Having 11 World Series Championship trophies is a comfort that any fan would love to have. Hoping you guys get another chance at another trophy is a cool thing. Really no BS.

Uh, no.

Although, ironically, I have a Jeff Francoeur autographed baseball. Got it for my Braves fan wife back when Francoeur was with Atlanta and didn't suck. The first couple of years that kid had, hard to believe he turned out the way he did. :shake:

Baseball will be better with a good team in KC, good fans, great stadium but sucky ownership.

I doubt that would do it now. Cox and Miller both are flailing. Adams might be attractive to the Brewers, but I doubt the Phillies would be interested unless they think they can find someone to take Howard and his massive albatross of a deal.

I don't see a problem with dealing any of them if you think you can have at least a 75% chance of keeping them. Cox is going nowhere here, Adams may have a tough time finding a place regularly here as well (if Craig can finally stay healthy). Once Beltran leaves that opens up a spot for Taveras keeping Craig on the infield.

I wouldn't mind seeing if Luhnow would let Wandy go for Cox, Greene and a lesser tier pitching prospect. He loved Greene when he was here.