Not getting in to the disagreement here, but I do think people massively underestimated the need for a WR picked early in the draft. Yes, Moore was picked after half a dozen other WRs, because we waited until the 2nd round to pull the trigger.

A lot of people here decided DL was the problem (not wrong, it's one of them) and we should be using multiple picks there. Sure, but don't expect immediate or guaranteed returns with your 2nd round WR. Not saying you are of course.

FWIW, Wanegho had a really high grade on PFF. Much higher than Wylie’s.

This seems like a far cry from your Moore takes going back to the draft.

You said guys like Moore get drafted in the 3rd every year, and he was essentially a reach in the 2nd. You called him a WR3 at best, and you seemed to think it was more likely than not that he wouldn't even be that.

Seems like your opinion on him has changed significantly. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that's because of the flashes he shaped in TC and preseason?

I don't necessarily think that's a bad/harsh take at all, but it's clearly different from your takes before the draft.

Ha, as I said, let's make the Prince a King! Liked him in the draft for the Eagles and I like him now! Obviously he's had, like, 8 snaps so not sure we can make THAT much of a comparison. But honestly, f**k it, he's still raw but he moves better and if his play strength is improved then throw him in.

Things we're late in doing: Showing EB the door and pretending our gimmick play calling doesn't need a running game to go with it. Also, get Skyy on the field and put Mecole back on PR duties. Andy just isn't in syn with this team right now. I know it's early but I'm starting to wonder if Andy is losing his touch in dealing with personelle.

Things we're late in doing: Showing EB the door and pretending our gimmick play calling doesn't need a running game to go with it. Also, get Skyy on the field and put Mecole back on PR duties. Andy just isn't in syn with this team right now. I know it's early but I'm starting to wonder if Andy is losing his touch in dealing with personelle.

Wow

I wasn't posting that the sky is falling, but that's kinda where everyone is at.

Just felt like these were 5 things it was time to change.

I don’t think people are there. We have way more realistic expectations vs last year.

We all know mahomes can and will improve. And I think most know Reid has the genius to work his way out of this. I’ve seen minimal complaints from our defense.

Most of what we see are big but very fixable things. But we are hurting ourselves if we don’t make the big changes we need. We likely need a WR and hopefully skyy moore can contribute sooner vs later. We need an option besides ceh to actually produce. And if bieniemy has any say in playcalling we need to take that away. If we don’t have the right WRs or RBs in the room it shouldn’t be hard to find one in the scrap pile. If our coaching can’t figure out these zones then bring in a special assistant who can help.

All very fixable problems but worst case scenario we are an excellent team with some challenges. I think the strong reaction from everyone is because these issues CAN be solved if we commit to them.

I'm not sure about that. We have reached the point where we have a lack of playmakers on offense. Mahomes can't do it all, especially with no protection..Our Tackles are terrible. I said 10-7 before the season, and I'm sticking to it. Going to be an up and down year. Deal is, we need to get Mahomes some playmakers, but OBJ is not going to work out and it's going to cost us to get a LT. But a new one is definitely needed.

On a positive note, the defense is much better.

It's because he has a skill set that should be useful here and one the chiefs can put to good use.

I still think he's a 3rd round caliber prospect but as I said earlier - we underestimate the ability to find quality WRs in the middle rounds. It happens every year.

My opinion is largely unchanged - he is a slot receiver who the Chiefs can get production out of because they're a smart organization who needs what he can provide. But he's not a premier prospect and he's not going to be a #1 wideout. If he's your best receiver at any point, your receivers suck.

I think we have plenty of support talent, but we just need a decent #1. I don’t think we need a tyreek hill, but we need at least a mid level WR1. I don’t think we need Derrick Henry but we need a guy who can be a legitimate mid level RB1 somewhere else. The bar is low enough that it shouldn’t be that hard to find.

Of course it would be nice to find studs at both positions. But if, for example, skyy and Pacheco can play to that level we can be ok. rB should not be hard to find on the waiver wire if not. And I’m intrigued by options like Corey Davis in a trade - not an elite guy, but definitely good enough to make the rest of our WRs better.

Here - from the pre-draft Moore thread (spoilered so everyone else doesn't have to wade through our bullshit)





This gets back to where I started - man, that's SUPER tepid 'criticism' of this kid. Saying I'd consider him a value play in the 3rd and a viable but not ideal pick in the late 2nd puts me like 15 spots off of where Veach had him valued. Afterall, Veach risked losing him outright for a 5th round pick. That's not someone he had a 1st round grade on and likely not someone he had a high 2nd on or he simply doesn't move for such a small return.

But as is your custom, you go WAY over the top when someone dares discuss one of 'your guys' in a less than glowing fashion. You wanna talk changing opinions - in that very thread YOU said you'd prefer Tolbert over him if they were both available at 62.

And now you're out here acting like you had this guy pegged for the HoF and I called him some piece of shit. Dude - you gotta stop doing that shit. Stop overplaying my position on guys. I didn't hammer this guy (apart from being aggressively anti-1st round pick on him). Nor did you scream about his greatness from the rafters.

Guys Hardman is banged up with a bum heel or something.

You might be right... I just remember not that long ago watching Hill, Watkins (when healthy), Kelce and Hunt, with Mahomes at QB. THAT was COOL! After Hunt was released, it did work with Damien, but the other skilled positions were stacked. Also had solid Tackles, which was huge. Now, we are a shell of that with the playmakers and Tackles.
My biggest concern is we go the Green Bay route, and that model does not work. I can't remember the last playmaker Veach drafted. IMO, it's a bit concerning. Like you said, maybe Skyy can be one. :shrug:

I said I'd take Tolbert becuase I really like Tolbert too. In that group that was available, I liked Pickens and Tolbert over him. That's it. I would've take Skyy over Watson, Pierce, etc. too. I even said that I suspect the Chiefs would like Moore over Tolbert, and I was absolutely fine with that. Those guys were very close for me after Pickens.

For crying out loud, I was literally defending the possibility of taking Moore in the 1st. Why would I do that with a guy that I don't really like? He wasn't a Chief at the time. This wasn't me just being a homer.

Come on DJ, I can see you're taking this way beyond what it's supposed to be. I'm not even sure how we ended up back here based on that reply to King that you quoted. I'm not telling you you're an idiot for your Moore takes. I just think you're wrong about his upside, and that's what I've been saying going back to that thread.

I compared the guy to Tyler Lockett, and I think you gave him a 5% chance of being that good. I think that's a good example of how far apart we are, because I think a Lockett is a 1B caliber player, and while I'd prefer to get our Metcalf, I don't think him being our #1 would necessarily mean that our WRs suck, although I can understand your point that. Preferably he's a 1B or WR2 for me down the line.

As for why I assumed your opinion has changed a bit, I don't see how you can compare the guy to Golden Tate, and also say there are guys like him in the 3rd round every year, and he's a WR3 at best. That seems like a contradiction.

And I never said my opinion on Skyy hasn't changed at all. I'm more confident than ever in my assessment that he has more upside than you give him credit for. What I saw in TC and the preseason only confirmed that for me. For instance, going back, I would definitely take him over Tolbert based on what I've seen from those 2.

At the end of the day, we all miss on guys. I'm not scared to be wrong, and I think you're taking friendly banter the wrong way. How's this any different from you and Pest with Williams?

I always respect your opinions, I just think you're wrong about Moore and I clearly have felt that way from the beginning. We don't have to agree on every player the Chiefs draft though. That's fine.

Now can we be friends again?

He took like 2 snaps.

You can’t remember the last playmaker he’s drafted because he’s never drafted a playmaker.

Or signed one . Or traded for one . But it has only been five years right . Cue the responses from the Brett Veach Ball Washing Association

Packers are a good "this is the worst case scenario" of an approach that entirely prioritises defence with a HOF QB. A cautionary tale. Everyone who clamoured for a million DEs in the draft and screamed blue murder at the possibility of drafting a WR high should bear this in mind. We need playmakers.

The post-Hill rationalization was being deeper at WR was better than having one generational superstar WR.

We shall see how that turns out as the season progresses.

It all depends on the math.

Let's quantify it a little bit. Let's say we see players as being 'worth' 1-10.

We had a WR room of Hill, Robinson, Pringle, Hardman, Fountain. The idea was that Hill (10), Pringle (5), Hardman (5), Robinson (3), Fountain (3) (Grand total 26) could be outnumbered by a higher average.

So you figure JJSS (7), MVS (6), A developing Hardman (6), Moore (5), Watson (4) gets you a better total overall at 28. And it does so cheaper and with the addition of significant draft capital from the Hill trade.

The problem is that to this point JJSS and MVS haven't been 7/6 respectively, Hardman hasn't seemed to develop much and Moore has an N/A next to his name. Watson's the only guy who's met or exceeded the thresholds needed for the 'depth' experiment to work.

I think it's a decent plan but so far the execution hasn't gone to script.

This.

I'm gonna watch some All 22 tonight (if it's available) and take a look at the WR. No they haven't been great but I don't think they've been awful either.

I really think the biggest problem is play calling. They're not putting these guys in spots to succeed, according to their skills sets. They're trying to put a square peg in a round hole right now and not only is it hurting the WR's, it's really hurting the line.

The whole offense is out of sync and it starts with calling better plays for the personnel you have on the field.

That was 4 years ago, dude. That's an eternity in football time. And do you know how many games Hunt and Mahomes played together in total? 12. And only 11 in 2018.

And that's when the offense was new and sparkly and no one had any clue what to do with Mahomes.

The last memory you should have of the Chiefs with Hunt was his final game where we gave up 54 to the Rams and lost.

I get it. It WAS fun. But 1/ I'll take wins over fun and losing and 2/ we had a lot of fun in week 1 of this season as well and I'm not ready to completely write that off as an anomaly.

(All that said, Tampa is not the team I want to face trying to get our offense right.)

So the All 22 is up and I just watched the first drive.

Patrick threw across the middle to an open MVS (after a scramble drill, no other WR was open after the initial routes) and overthrew the window. He had CEH WIDE OPEN in the right flat and didn't even look his way, despite the pressure.

He followed that up by overthrowing MVS on what would have been a TD, MVS had two steps on his guy and Mahomes just missed him.

I'll keep watching but man, that first series was just bad play by Mahomes.

I forgot about 2nd down.

Patrick AGAIN had CEH open in the flat, wide open, and he didn't see him. Kelce was open. Mahomes was too busy putting his head down and scrambling right up the gut.

I haven't even made it past the first drive of the game and it's pretty obvious the line is a HUGE issue, much more so than the WR's.

On the 3rd down play, Kelce was open too, right underneath MVS.

Because screen passes are designed to take advantage of aggressive defenses.

Aggressive defenses aren't the problem. The Chiefs shine when they play aggressive defenses. Screens aren't effective against a 4 man rush in which the secondary is looking towards the LOS. Which is what's been giving them a hard time.

It's become apparent that playcalling is the problem, but screens aren't the answer either.

I just haven't been all that impressed with the IOL these last two weeks. For as good as they're suppose to be, i swear i watch other QB's get more time in the pocket than Mahomes.

Is the All-22 only on viewable on a web browser? I have yet to see it on the app.

I'm watching on my iPad via the NFL app.

WTF. The phone/TV App?

Where the **** is it? Lol

Both OTs feels like the defensive backfield in 2018. Performing so poorly that you can just feel they'll play a major part in the season ultimately ending come January.

Looked to me like the pressure from the first 2 games (and the start of this one) had impacted Mahomes mentally.

His play was very reminiscent of his bad quarters/halves/stretches.

Oh i don't know if i'd go that far.

As the game went on it started to feel a more and more like...

...Mahomes might have been the issue

Trey Smith has always been a bit overrated, at least IMO. He's had some really poor games here. But for a 6th rounder he's been an excellent return on that value.

It just doesn't make sense though. This is the same exact OL as last year.

I fully expect this OL to be playing much better down the stretch, they usually do in Andy's tenure for whatever reason.

It's the WRs that I'm much more worried about long term, but I'd like to think Moore and Watson are more involved if they continue to disappoint.

Watching the games tells ya that. Patrick has no time most of the time. Glad you are confirming what we have been seeing.

2nd drive, first play. The run to CEH out of our own end zone.

Trey Smith fails to hold his block and his guy blows up CEH, almost creating a safety.

I gotta stop watching. Our offensive line is offensive.

On the 2nd drive, 3rd down, he had MVS open over the top of Kelce and instead he went for the underneath route. Kelce got tackled short of the 1st down.

He played like shit for his standard, yes. Looked like the Mahomes from when Erving was forced to start and Hill was out. Still a very good QB but not the top tier.

I might.

The difference between that game and the 2 bad halves Mahomes has had in his entire career to this point, was that this game still had a couple of elite plays in it.

But the bad ones? Very similar to what we've seen from him when he's been out of sorts in the past.

Watch again. The reads weren't good and the ball placement was just bad. Now that's not to say anyone did him any favors. As you noted, the OL wasn't good (though I still think Creed and Thuney played well). And the WRs weren't giving him much to throw to.

But he missed plenty of balls he shouldn't have because he was just off.

Mahomes' arm strength is a curse at times on deep balls because he doesn't float/arc the pass as much as other QB's to give WR's more time to adjust.

Eh, the WR group as a whole can perform just fine provided Mahomes actually has the time to find them without the OL shitting on him. Cardinals game comes to mind.

Plenty of blame to go around. 3rd drive, 2nd down, running play.

CEH had a HUGE hole right up the middle, he bounced to his right and all he had to do was cut upfield. He bounced too far and right into his own blocking.

Look at this ****ing hole.

I agree.

I don’t think we ever had a “deep” WR room

A deep room would be something like the 2020 Cowboys. Cooper, Lamb, and Gallup. None of those guys were as good as Kelce or Hill individually, but you could make an argument for those Cowboys weapons over the 2021 Chiefs based on “depth”

The 2022 Chiefs receiving corps isn’t deep because deep implies high quality talent which our WR corps doesn’t possess. Would you take the 2020 Cowboys over the 2021 Chiefs? Debatable

Would anyone take the 2022 Chiefs receiving weapons over the 2021 ones? No, and I said this before the season started. We have a slightly higher floor in return for a lower ceiling

It’s on Reid, Mahomes, and Kelce to figure things out.

We may not want that, but that’s what it is

Well he was very highly rated in those two snaps. 😀

Guys, it wasn't just the passing game. Patrick has got to read the defense better. We had another running play blown up because he handed the ball to the wrong guy.

I am fine with the approach. But at some point someone has to step up as a WR1. We don’t need to have an elite RB1 or WR1. But we do need somebody to be the primary target outside of kelce. We’ve got a lot of good support guys. We get even a middling #1 and now our WR room is actually halfway decent.

As of right now it’s not that these guys arent any good. It’s that they’re too one dimensional. We can’t just keep throwing 4.3 sprint guys out there.

We can’t run the ball. We don’t run the ball. We don’t even like running the ball.

And defenses know it.

Just like the Bengals, teams are dropping 6-7 defenders are begging us to run the ball. I mean holy shit the Bengals dropped EIGHT players several times in the 2nd half last year and we didn’t run the ball.

I've made it through the 1st half. I'd say there's nobody open on about 25% of the plays. He had guys open on a lot of plays and just didn't have the feel for it. The line is a huge problem.

Well when it's a game like Sunday where your starting RB has 7 carries for 0 yards, kind of hard to argue that we should've ran the ball more, especially with Mahomes at QB.

We had a bunch of negative run plays in the first half. It's not a mystery why they didn't run the ball more, it wasn't working. It was atrocious actually.

We've got to stop with so much RPO. Every running play takes a full second to even get started and a few times now, I've watched Mahomes make the WRONG read. It's hurting the line, it's hurting the RB's.

So as I've watched a bit more trying to focus on Brown (because I don't want him to have been as bad as he felt in real time) - JESUS he was out of sync.

It wasn't necessarily that he was getting beat because he's too fat or slow or whatever. His technique and timing were just a complete mess. He was lunging really badly and often getting beat because his punch was too early so he was extended. And if he gets extended but isn't into the DE's body, he's in trouble. Without that counterbalance to push off against, whoever he's blocking is going to just sail around him.

I guess the good news is that it really does look like it was a technique issue and we know he can play better than that. I don't think this was something that is terminal. He just didn't have it at all.

The whole team just looks like they weren't ready. Everyone was just...off. Brown, for everything he's not, is a polished and physical OT. He's a guy who's experienced a fair amount of success in the league knowing how to play the position. And Sunday he looked like a rookie.

Mahomes had ball placement issues. Kelce dropped the game clinching TD. Jones had a brainfart (which sucks because MAN he was good in that game. That's gonna get lost in all the hand-wringing; he was a beast out there). I mean I'm not gonna get into the parade of foul-ups, but those are probably the 4 most important guys on the team and they all had huge hands in creating that loss.

"We're taking the Colts seriously..."

Uh...did you really? 'Cuz it sorta looks like you didn't.

I will say this. Not only am I ready to take Moore off of punt returns, I'm ready to take Pacheco off of kick returns too. He's not getting it done at all.

Yeah - for some folks the answer will ALWAYS be "why didn't Andy run the ball more!??!"

Marty Vapours I guess.

And maybe it's a declarative statement more than a suggestion for some. But the bottom line is that this team really can't turn to the run game to fix any problems. They ain't good at it.

{coughcough} DitchtheRPOandOZscheme {coughcough}

Yep. The RPO has got to go. Hey, hey! Ho ho!

Pacheco looks like they wanted to have a reason to keep him on the active roster. He needs to take a seat on the inactive list if they aren’t going to actually give him carries.

God that pass to Watson should have been a TD.

Not only was the throw short, it was late. If he would have thrown the ball a bit sooner and out in front, we score. He was WIDE OPEN early in the route and had the angle.

Just like Moore, Pachecho needs more offensive snaps ASAP.

These guys weren't returners in college. Let them actually do what they do best.

In the offense, not on special teams.

I pretty much agree with all of this. :clap:

You barely beat me to my edit :D

It’s very fixable.

Get Clyde off the field and bring up RoJo. Have him and Pacheco get more snaps.

They also need to line up in 12 and 13 personnel more often like they did in AZ and run the ball. They just didn’t do that. Again they played like the 2019 offense, not the current new version.

Andy and Patrick’s pride and ego were their downfalls in Indy

Orlando Brown and the rest of the line needs all the help they can get at pass protection. Putting in the worst pass blocking RB in the league doesn't seem to be the answer. Just move on to Pacheco and accept the growing pains.

I wonder if they didn't see Gus Bradley, expect a lot more single high and envision this as a get right game for the passing game figuring it could be a spring board for the new WR corps.

So again - Hubris. They just appear to have looked past Indy.

Hmmmm.....

Might be some truth to this.

Mismatched parts, fellas...

They had an entirely new corps of WRs and had played 2 games together. One was amazing and the other was middling.

Isn't it a little much to jump to this narrative that they felt it would be easy to have a get-right game when their sample size of wrong games was 1 of 2?

I don't think they quite know what they have yet with their offense.

The worst pass blocking RB in the league?

Come on man.

This is why the “WR’s can’t get open” line is so confusing to me. Look at this. They’re dropping 7. The Chargers did that too.

All 3 LB’s dropping to the middle of the field, cover 2 in the back. It’s 7 defenders vs 4 receivers.

What do we expect to happen? And if they have a really good corner like Gilmore they’re gonna single him up on Juju, double Kelce and take the remaining 4 defenders vs 2 receiver matchup every time.

They need to establish the running game and force defenses to pull those LB’s up.

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He's pretty bad, man.

Worse, it's an indifference thing.

Among starting caliber backs, I'm hard pressed to think of a worse one.

Maybe.

Just spit-balling.

RONALD JONES

"In a so-far forgettable career, Jones had his most forgettable season — hitting career lows in all categories below. Additionally, he didn't improve his standing as a potential every-down option. Out of 97 running backs, he ranked 96th in pass block grade (12.4)."

https://www.pff.com/news/fantasy-foo...ee-agents-2022

Exactly. Hardman needs to return kicks and punts.

The all-22 on this game is so brutal. I don’t even think it’s fair to our WR’s. There was very little time to develop plays.

Mahomes was moving to avoid pressure before routes could develop. ThTs how bad the OL was

I see open receivers

Moore looks completely lost on PR. I really hope Andy doesn't trot him out there again.

If I have Patrick Mahomes at QB and Andy Reid coaching against me as an opposing DC, I want them to run the ball. Let them run it, over and over. I don't care.