Originally Posted by WhawhaWhat (Post 17532582)

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="es" dir="ltr">Ángel Hernández to retire: Much-maligned MLB umpire calling it quits <a href="https://t.co/2m9QJNlkcl">https://t.co/2m9QJNlkcl</a></p>&mdash; Bob Nightengale (@BNightengale) <a href="https://twitter.com/BNightengale/status/1795261829419348209?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 28, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Originally Posted by WhawhaWhat (Post 17532582)

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="es" dir="ltr">Ángel Hernández to retire: Much-maligned MLB umpire calling it quits <a href="https://t.co/2m9QJNlkcl">https://t.co/2m9QJNlkcl</a></p>&mdash; Bob Nightengale (@BNightengale) <a href="https://twitter.com/BNightengale/status/1795261829419348209?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 28, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Originally Posted by Ocotillo (Post 17532224)

Catcher is the hardest position to statisicially quantify the value of a player's contributions.

The stat nerds say the same thing about Yadier Molina even though there's mountains of praise around baseball for his defensive impact. Anybody that followed baseball knows the Cardinals pitching staff had an obvious drop off in performance when prime years Molina was injured.

Even if you read the works of Bill James or listen to Brian Kenny, they make it clear that WAR isn't be all, end all of evaluation. You have to consider all information at hand. Simplifying it to WAR is lazy and not doing the homework.

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho (Post 17532974)

Fangraphs also incorporated its own grading of framing and it absolutely hammered Perez's defensive value. I think their model overrates framing value, if for no other reason than it doesn't include metrics for other C defensive values.

I also think their methodology in grading framing runs saved is off somehow. They rate Perez below Sal Fasano in defensive value for their careers, which is as ludicrous as it gets and reminds one of what's been said about lies, damn lies, and statistics...

Originally Posted by poolboy (Post 17532979)

How in the world can you grade framing?....too many variables and it prob changes ump to ump
If Sal was catching in New York, Boston or LA, he would be more celebrated for sure

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho (Post 17532994)

It's rather subjective.

When they added framing to their C defensive calculations, it was enough to add19 WAR to Russell Martin's numbers while dropping 13 from Salvador Perez's number.

Just calculate that in strikes. How many strikes would one have to steal (at that point in Perez's career, it was only 8 seasons) to account for that many additional wins?

And how would you assign NEGATIVE value?

Originally Posted by TomBarndtsTwin (Post 17533008)

Bill James has openly spoke out against the overvaluation of framing and using DRS as a stat to measure catchers.

He has specifically says it unfairly takes away from the value of someone like Salvador Perez, who is one of the better defensive catchers for his time.

Good enough for me.

Hopefully the HOF voters listen when the time comes.

Originally Posted by poolboy (Post 17533231)

What would Brent Rooker cost us? You know the A's are ready to do something crazy

Originally Posted by poolboy (Post 17533231)

What would Brent Rooker cost us? You know the A's are ready to do something crazy

Originally Posted by WhawhaWhat (Post 17533265)

He cost them Cam Gallagher 2 years ago.