31 year old kobe is better then 25 year old Kobe. 31 year old Kobe is a way better player. Not as physically talented, but everything else is better.

The subtitle changed he has made to his game over the past year or so to make up for his aging has been pretty damn impressive.

I haven't read most of this thread, but how could MJ be considered a compiler type?

Not really. He is a much more savvy player these days but he was better a few years ago.

hell of a game on tonight, vs my mavs

So you don't want to read the thread you prefer I go back and do the work and summerize it here? No thanks.

He's more savvy, even more clutch, a better leader and his ability to overcome some pretty crazy physical adversity and rise up like he never has before and you want to categorize all that as compiling and think he was a better player earlier in his career. OK

To each there own. That's why they call them opinions. I am not really interested in breaking down the definition of compilation with you. Ever since Kobe came in the league there has been a group of people who came out and said nobody will ever be greater than Jordan as if they had an investment in that fact. Kobe won't win a Championship. Kobe will never win a championship without Shaq. Kobe will never come close to have the 6 championships Jordan had. Now if exceeds everything it's just compiling and no indication of his greatness as a player. Whatever.

My comment about whatever previous arguments were raised in this thread about MJ being a compiler is mostly just blowing it off as a poor argument for whoever raised it.

I'm not arguing that Kobe isn't an elite player nor one of the best at his position that the game has seen. His ability to play at that high of a level and how he has changed his game over the past few years to make up for the slight loss of athleticism has been damn impressive.

Still at his peak is doesn't quite measure up to Jordan which isn't a knock on how good of a player he really is.

One of the reason's Kobe fails in comparison is because Jordan dominated basketball for pretty much a decade. He was by far the best player in the league and his team won 6 out of 8 titles and probably would have one 8 in a freaking row if he didn't decide to go play baseball during 2 of his prime years. Jordan was viewed as the champ that took on all comers and never lost (He wasn't the same guy playing against the Magic) once he won the title. The dude quit for 2 years and came back and won 3 more titles. Kobe and the Lakes don't have the same period of dominance that Jordan had in the NBA. You really can't even count the titles that Shaq lead the team to, because Kobe wasn't the guy that led the team and Kobe already lost 1 NBA finals. Once Jordan was "Jordan" he was no doubt the best, and nobody ever took that title from him. Kobe had the chance but couldn't get past the Celtics.

the competition jordan faced could be said to be inferior. his team never faced a dominant center in the finals nor was there another player that had another alpha dog on the same team at the same time. plus the guy who "quit" for two years maybe was expelled from the league by stern for gambling issues. maybe
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It would have been interesting if he hadn't taken that time off and faced the two years of the Rockets with Hakeem at his peek.

I do think that measuring titles or who had the better supporting cast is a bit weak when evaluating a player. It is part of the equation but not the trump card that everyone makes it to be.

No it's only part. Or we would be including Robert Horry in the discussion :)

Greatest mediocre player to be a total badass when it mattered.

He faced a HOF dominant center year after year in the eastern conference finals, a pretty damn good 2 guard in the finals in Drexler, a HOF power forward and HOF point guard on the same team for a few years and a HOF small forward another year. He seen it all bro.

Just not Hakeem and Bob ;)

so u admit that no other team at the time had two players that would be considered alphas playing together? like kobe faced against the celtics?
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True, but they were not as good as any of the 6 teams Chicago beat IMO.

Jordan beat the Jazz and Kobe lost to the Celtics. I'm not seeing your point. The Jazz were also a much better team because they played better team basketball. The Celtics were basically the Heat from a few years ago.

lol garnett pierce and allen wouldve destroyed those 90s jazz teams. each their own
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Not saying they would have beaten the Bulls with MJ but I don't agree with that at all. Hakeem/Drexler was as good of a combo they would have faced.

I think you are underrating how good Stockton and Malone really were. Still that Boston team was damn good before age caught up with them.

You make the mistake of assuming "Alpha Dogs" means having a better team. What happened when those Alpha Dogs Shaq and Kobe met a good TEAM (Pistons) with no alpha dogs in the finals?

What happend when a team that had of 3 of the top 50 players of all time in there early 30s went up against the Jazz? Not the same thing that happend when 3 elite players in their early 30's played the Lakers was it?

And
Hakeem, Barkley, Drexler > Pierce, Garnett, Allen

Maybe as good of combo, but I don't think as good of a team.

Horry, Cassel and Smith were all damn solid players during the second time around. Same thing the first time but Thorpe/Maxwell instead of Drexler.

Whatever makes you feel better.

Yeah, I think he said he watched the NBA before 2000, but I'm not sure that is the case.

Mavs are 5-1 since the all star break including last nights awesome victory over the Lakers. We totally raped the wizards in that Josh Howard trade. We may not beat the Lakers in a playoff series, but we're good enough to get past the thuggets.
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so youre saying you havent watch the NBA since 2000. oh, ok that makes sense now.

I said this when?

Dude, your arguements have all been smashed and you resort to this.

please dude, dont pull the "ive been watching the nba longer" card bullshit out on me. my dad took me to see showtime playoff games at the fabulous forum when i was a kid. my friends and i would pay $12 a ticket and sit right behind the clippers bench at the sports arena back in the 90s and i saw jordan and ewing and stockton, malone etc etc etc... LIVE. i still go to staples at least 4 or 5 times a year.

you live in st. joes? whens the last time you even saw a live nba game? back when jordan was still playing?

give me a break dude, dont act like youre mr. nbaexpert because youre old. LMAO

Still waiting for your rebuttle on the arguements "Alpha Dog", but nice try on the deflection.

Have you ever been to an NBA game? :eek:

I have not. My sister got to see a Bulls game vs the Celtics when Jordan played in the early 90's. Perhaps you would be better off debating her although I still like her chances.

Anyways, tell me again how the Celtics of 2 years ago "destroy" the Jazz of the 90's. That's right, they had Garnett, Allen, and Pierce all between 30-35, even though the Jazz beat the Rockets with 3 of the greatest 50 players in NBA history between the ages of 30-35.

john stockton vs. matt maloney.

enough said

LMAO. If that's the best you got, I think it is.

look, if you want to know specifically why the Jazz beat the Rockets in the 97 WCFinals then Stockton completely owning Matt Maloney is about a good reason as any. Malone statistically edged Barkley and Clyde was a shell of himself. What more do want?

They won because they had the better TEAM despite the Rockets having 3 guys averaging over 18 points a game. You can't just cherry pick matchups like that, or I could just say

Kendrick Perkins vs Pau Gasol.

Ray Allen was also a shell of himself and Garnett was far from healthy when the beat the younger Lakers team.

I think Perkins is actually vastly underrated defensively. We're just arguing hypotheticals anyways. I've already admitted that MJ is the best ever, but the criteria that I use is just different from what you use.

Yeah, no way to tell for sure. I actually believe the 80's Celtics and Laker teams are superior to any team the 90's or 00's have seen anyways.

Teams now days are much better then teams of the 90's. So much competition out there right now. There are ALOT of teams with 2 good to very very very good players on teams now.

There are about 10 teams in the NBA now days that have multiple good players. There was NEVER this much talent in the NBA before. I cant think of anytime. Go through the rosters of the play off contending teams. Its quite frankly insane how much talent the NBA has right now.

http://s48.radikal.ru/i122/0909/66/0a4a721f9b4b.gif

Lakers been playing kinda not in it right now. Interesting interview with Bynum tonight after the game. He said the team has lost focus and is just waiting for the play offs. He said they gotta get their head outta their butts basically. lol He had a beastly game tonight. I was more impressed with his defensive presence though.

One more thing. Kobe did it again. lol

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SPURS SUX

bump for gasols awesomness and utahs beatdown today.

utahs defense is a joke

LA in 5

The Bynum knee thing could be a big deal.

Bynum is going to end up getting Danny Manning'ed

You gotta watch out for those guys that develop too quickly.

Well, he's played with that all year. He should be able to play through it. Some pain and what not. They said he just re aggravated it when it got hyper extended. So we will see.

Stil had 8 and 10, not bad. what our issues is, the stupid bench at times. So cant wait until Farmar is gone this offseason.

I really thought either Farmar or Sasha would step up at some point. Bench has sucked all season.

I do wish Bynum could give us a couple seasons without the injuries. The guy has monstor potential if he could just stay healthy.

Sorry dude, not the Laker's year! Someone else is going to take it this year, maybe the Sharks?? :)

If the media had it their way they would just crown Lebron right now. I was sooooo wishing the Celtics had pulled off game 1.

I would like to see the Celtics take it over the Cav's, we will see. And of course the media is going to lick Lebron's starfish clean, maybe it has something to do with his two MVP awards. ;)

Perfect time for him to get the award.

The achillies thing was just a bad deal, but his other 2 injuries were freak accidents by his own team. that was sucks. People wanna say injury prone, but when you have 240 lb men falling on your knees and your 7'1 thats not going to end up well.

I'm just happy Kobe didn't get it. Personally, I am tired of seeing the Lakers, I'd rather let Lebron and the Cav's have some more sunshine.

**** Lebron and the Cavs, Kobe needs his 5th ring. :LOL:

IMO Lebron is out of there next season anyway. Why would anyone want to stay in that shit hole? Bet he ends up in Miami.

Screw Kobe and his fifth ring!! :p
If this is Lebron's last year, then may he go out with a bang! It doesn't really matter to me who wins between the Celtics and the Cav's, I just like going for the underdog normally and the Cav's are favored by what 6 or 7 points?

Cavs -6. I would love to see a Celtics/Lakers Final. This is the Celts last hoorah so I would l would love to see this happen. I have no love for Lebron. I'm already sick and tired of the media ass licking frenzy.

NO matter how the media tries to spin it, Kobe is still leading in jersey sale for years in a row now. Fans have spoken. Media is trying, but Kobe is Kobe.

Funny, just received a Kobe jersey for my kid today.

Have any of you seen what the TV ratings are for the playoffs this year? I'm wondering how pro hoops is doing viewer-wise.

LAKERS! LAKERS!

MAMBA! MAMBA! LUOL DENG SUCKS!

MAMBA!!!!!

Potential Lakers V. Celtics ONCE AGAIN.

Its all Mike Browns ****INGG FAULT!

I'm not looking forward to either the Magic or Celtics, but lets focus on the Suns for now.

I have the plan set out already for Game 1.

We insert Luke into the starting lineup. Within the first 30 seconds he "accidently" elbows Nash in the eye. Repeatedly. Luke suspended for the series. Lake Show cruises to the finals

Steve Nash is cool. He plays a type of game that can go as long as Jason Kidd or longer. He'll be a successful old geezer. But Lakers roll in five.

Lebron's had some shitty games. But know why the team is unable to even COMPETE when Lebron has shitty games? Mike Brown.

Know why Lebron didn't get a ring last year? Mike Brown.

Seriously, do you WATCH Cavs games? Do you see what Lebron James has to ****ing do just to keep his team afloat? There's NO gameplanning. On offense or defense. NONE. NO COACHING.

Hamas had it right. Mike Brown is the Herm Edwards of the NBA. Only fatter and less talkative.

You forgot Anderson Varajao.

BUMP PARA LOS LAKERS ESSE!!!!!!!

Hoop, there it is!!!!

Okay gang

Pau mucho gusto

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2010-05/53795173.jpg

Be a real shame if this was like 2008 when you guys all had the Lakers' championship ticket punched only to watch them get flattened by the C's...


:D :p

Gang Green is looking good. The game will be interesting tonight. Nothing worse than losing to the Celtics in the finals. Nothing sweeter than beating the Celtics in the finals especially at the end of these guys careers. I certainly hope that's what happens.

Yeah, same thing here. Heck, if hte C's win I can start up the "if KG hadn't hurt his knee, would Kobe have ever won a title without Shaq" line of argument. :D

Let's face it, we're both excited at the the thought of beating our archnemesis, and scared at the thought of losing to them. I wasn't a real believer in the Celtics this year until game 1 against Orlando, but they went 1:1 against Howard, kept him under control, kept a hand in the faces of the perimeter shooters, and completely dominated the game. It was a helluva impressive performance until they started playing not to lose in the 4th.

I want the C's to win it in the East. We need another Celtics/Lakers Finals.

Everyone outside of New England and Southern Cal probably disagrees with you. :D

But I'm good with it. Be fun to watch.

I am in Central Cali, and i could give a **** what they want. lol

Hey I'm from Boston -- Patriots, Red Sox, Celtics -- believe me, I'm plenty used to the rest of the country hating my teams. :D

Phil 46-0 when his team wins the first game in postseason.

Seriously, who gives a rats ass about the lost suns? This is the Celtics last hoorah with a bunch of aging superstars. Magic are going to be around for a long time so bring on the classic.

Got two words for you, "Lost Suns"

kobes such a ballhogging selfish bitch