I agree that they're not to blame. But it's been mentioned that people in the Chiefs organization were aware of Belcher and Perkins' issues and have intervened.

With that being the case, there is the possibility of a civil suit. I'm not saying it's justified or wouldn't be thrown out of court immediately but that it is possible.

Relationship problems do not equal a train wreck. By all accounts, he was a model citizen at work. 2 people are dead, lets cut the BB hyperbole.

I can't argue with that. In today's world, I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't already been contacted by multiple ambulance chasers looking for deep RED & GOLD pockets.

A model citizen who drank EVERY NIGHT?

It's clear that he was living a double life. From SI stories and others, his closest friends had no idea he owned nine guns, let alone was into shooting.

It appears that he had a serious facade happening. That's not uncommon for public figures.

There are millions of men and women out there that have substance abuse issues along with relationship problems. I don't think the percentage of them committing murder-suicides is high enough to draw any sort of correlation between the two.

I understand that gochiefs likes to convince himself of something and then just pound it into the ground with his confirmation bias. I don't know why Dane is throwing around these extremely strong claims like he has any idea, though.

Dane, weren't you implying the other day that Javon didn't have any head trauma because he only killed his girlfriend and himself and didn't go on a shooting rampage?

It appears he had a history of violence...

Have you READ every ****ing article published about this guy? Are you aware of his history of violence, arrests and campus reports?

It appears to me that you're not and you're talking out of your ass. Why don't you use Google, read up, and come back to the thread.

Good thing we kept one of them on the roster and paid him millions to be mediocre...it was really worth it.

Not according to Pants and many other ill-informed members.

It was just a one time thing. A misunderstanding.

You know, typical murder.

And I liked Jovan Belcher. I was a fan.

I'm ****ing ashamed of that fact now.

The dude was hood rat scum.

He ****ing sucked and was a huge liability.

I posted as such in 2010 and people argued with me, especially DJ's Left Nut. Even my pal Milkman defended him.

**** him.

I also was a fan.

I'm not sure how you'd describe him but right now it'd be murderer and.....

"At work." And you're going off the email of one Belcher friend who called her the "catalyst"? I have NOT read one quote from a player or coach who had anything less than positive to say about his commitment and performance at work.

You can heckle the Chiefs all you want, but there's nothing yet that indicts them in any way. As far as I can tell, they've done a masterful job of handling a terrible tragedy that happens 3X a day in the U.S. I'm willing to change my opinion once someone provides viable proof otherwise. Until then, o master of the GIFs, I bid you a fond good evening.

I've read about 3 police reports during his time in college:

1. Punched a window because he was mad.
2. A girl and he were yelling at each other and police came because of a noise complaint.
3. He requested to be let into a building.

When was he arrested? He was obviously not a felon because he legally owned firearms.

What am I missing?

LOL

Belcher's time at UMaine had episodes of domestic issues


http://www.pressherald.com/news/Jova...-at-Maine.html

There have been other links provided as well during the past few days.

More:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...her/index.html

Do you read the articles or just the headlines?

In case you don't feel like actually reading the articles, you can just look at my earlier post where I listed his "history of violence."

So once again, when was he arrested?

I see where he punched a window in college and someone reported that he was disturbing the peace during an argument at a dorm. But I don't see where he ever assaulted anyone or was arrested for anything. No accusations of assault.

I did find that he was was a member of "Male Athletes Against Violence" while in college. No Lawrence Phillips moments that I saw. Other than what I mentioned, what else has he been in trouble for? Was he ever actually arrested? If so, I missed it.

"They had their arguments and fights," Barker says, "but nothing crazy." It was, as far as anyone knows, an isolated incident. Most of the time, Belcher was the ideal student-athlete."

JFC, that is NOT what you said.

Try to keep up.

:facepalm:

According to some, he severed his thumb in that window vane attack. I linked where he had issues in Maine.

What more do you need to understand the guy couldn't handle women or a relationship? A murder?

Uh...

You've always been a ****ing reerun and had you threatened me in 2012 like you did in 2004, you'd have been banned.

So please, tell us all why his actions in Maine have no bearing on his in Missouri.

So what exactly did I say that was not true? I said right off the bat that he argued with his girlfriend and punched a window in one instance.

I'm not sure how being locked out of a building justifies as a significant or relevant event to anything, much less this murder-suicide.

Again, when was Jovan Belcher arrested and what were the charges?

Why are you getting personal with me? I don't remember ever threatening you, either.

You're joking, right?

I'm not going to make this personal but I don't know anyone that's smashed through a plate glass window because they were mad at a girl, nor do I know anyone that was interviewed even ONCE by campus police for transgressions against women, let alone, more than once.

I'll just say this and **** all you mother****ers: If you're punching holes in drywall or bricks or pulling other stupid shit over a member of the opposite sex, you need psychological help

That is ****ED UP.

Seven BILLION people on the planet. MORE women than men. If you feel the need to hurt or injure a woman, seek help.

He punched a window... as a college student. He didn't punch a girl. He didn't get arrested. A quote from the SI article: "They had their arguments and fights," Barker says, "but nothing crazy." It was, as far as anyone knows, an isolated incident. Most of the time, Belcher was the ideal student-athlete."

Nothing documented from his past, so far, indicates a potential for murder. My point, based on current info, is that nobody could have predicted this. And the two vaguely documented instances from college didn't involve violence on others or any arrests/legal actions. Pretty benign stuff for a college student. And it wouldn't be a shocker if alcohol was involved in the window incident.

LMAO

John Goodman thread. You threatened to kick my ass. I gave my address for the most part and invited you over.

:shake:

No, it does not. But hindsight is 50/50.

In all seriousness, there were signs. I'm not blaming anyone or castigating anyone, but, there was a little something there.

Based on those signs, we have several serial killers here at CP. :eek:

A noise complaint.
A smashed window.

You can't conclude that Jovan Belcher was a sick man with a history of violence from that. He never hurt a woman before he shot Kasandra or if he did, it was never reported. He was also never arrested to my knowledge (I'm still waiting for you to show me the facts on that.)

I don't have anything personal against you, Dane, I just had to call you out on this because it was getting pretty ridiculous.

His closest friends had no idea he was capable of doing something like that and if we're going to start theorizing, I don't think Javon had any idea either. That's probably why he shot himself in the end.

I think there are just too many variables here. He was obviously a very passionate individual. He was suffering from pain and head trauma. We will see what the autopsy reports show, he might have been drunk and on a bunch of Oxycodone or Hydrocodone. Who knows?

Hahaha. I don't remember that, but if I threatened to kick your ass, I assure you I was just kidding. I don't think I could kick your ass if I wanted to and I never have.

So, the SI article was inconclusive?

:shake:

This wasn't a random act of violence. The guy had one face for his professional career and one face for his personal life.

His lifelong friends say they knew nothing about his gun fascination, let alone the fact he owned nine guns.

The guy was jacked up.

Dane, take a step back and take an objective look at the situation.

Imagine there is no murder-suicide and there's a guy out there who smashed a window a long time ago while drunk in college.

Imagine that guy was also involved in a shouting match with his girlfriend in a separate incident and the neighbors called the police because of the noise.

Imagine this guy was very responsible in college, played football and took a serious major as opposed to an easy-A, athlete major.

He was never in any sort of trouble and by all accounts was a high-character guy.

Would you honestly deem this guy as some sort of a threat to those around him?

Also, there was a quote in one of the articles you, yourself, linked attributed to Javon in which he discussed his collection of guns with a friend or an acquaintance. I don't think his collection was any sort of a dark secret.

I've got some 14 oz gloves and headgear that you two could borrow. Hard to get too hammered with this equipment. I'll take winner if anyone's in my weight category (245 lbs). Marquess of Queensberry rules. Loser buys the beers. (I kid. Unless someone just wants to buy beers all around.)

Sounds like the herd needs to be thinned...

Only the ones he loved the most.

:(

You're right about this. Some people have a hard time reeling in their emotions and looking at these things objectively.

fyp

Not too soon for that one to be funny.

Completely agree.

I didn't see this anywhere so I will put it here

Transcript:

Dispatcher: You did the right thing. [Simultaneous talking] We need the address.

Caller: The address is [redacted]. Yes. Please get the ambulance here. Please. [redacted] Oh God, Kasi.

Dispatcher: We have a shooting at [redacted]. it sounds like. Ma'am, her name is [redacted]? Is it an apartment?

Caller: It's a house! [Inaudible] Please hurry!

Dispatcher: Ma'am? Let me see if I can help you. Are you with the baby now? [Simultaneous talking] We're on the way. We've been on the way the whole time. How old is the patient?
Caller: 22.

Dispatcher: Male or female?

Caller: Female.

Dispatcher: Is she breathing?

Caller: She's still breathing but barely. Please hurry. I don't know how many times he shot her. They were arguing.

Dispatcher: So she's been shot?

Caller: Yes. (To victim) The ambulance is on the way! You hear me? You hear this? Fight!

Dispatcher: Is she awake? Does she hear what you're saying?

Caller: Yes. She's moving when I talk to her.

Dispatcher: Is she bleeding?

Caller: Yes, she is. (baby crying in background)

Dispatcher: Where is she bleeding from?

Caller: I can't tell - in the back, it looks like.

Dispatcher: OK. We don't want - Go ahead. Where is your son at?

Caller: (Inaudible) Just get the ambulance here, please.

Dispatcher: We're on the way. Where is your son at?

Caller: He left.

Dispatcher: He left?

Caller: Yes.

Dispatcher: OK, they were arguing and he shot her?

Caller: Yes, yes, they were arguing.

Dispatcher: OK. What's your son's name?

Caller: [Redacted] Please just get the ambulance here.

Dispatcher: Ma'am...

Caller: I have to get the baby.

Dispatcher: What kind of car did your son leave in? Or is he on foot? ... Sounds like she disconnected. She doesn't want to answer questions. Ma'am, are you there? ... Ma'am?

Shortly afterward, a call came from Arrowhead Stadium, where Belcher had apparently already committed suicide.

Partial Transcript:

Caller: Hello. We need a Code One ambulance although they think he's probably dead.
Number 1 Arrowhead Drive - that's the practice field at the Chiefs Stadium. It's a self-inflicted shooting. It's a done deal. They've got a player that shot himself.

Dispatcher: A player?

Caller: Yeah.

Dispatcher: What parking lot?

Caller: They still need you.

Dispatcher: We're on our way.

Audio: http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=Arx5b_6...r911call1a.mp3

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-sh...9894--nfl.html

"she doesnt want to answer questions/herp"

Yeah, she probably didnt, i'm sure its very hard to focus at a time like that, a loved one is dying in front of you, the baby is screaming in the background...

Some of you on here need to get a life and show some compassion to the families this touched. Mental illness is real.

I've got a life and family. I have to worry about my own problems and reality. I am numb to this because its a common occurrence in America. Its a non story anymore.

That was my point.

No, you didn't argue as such. In fact you expressly stated that you weren't saying he sucked:

You were wanting to use a 1st rounder or a significant FA payout to upgrade on him immediately. I said he's a passable starter and a guy that needed replacing less than about 5 other positions on the defense alone. I said we should continue to try to develop him and focus in improving the NT position first.

I was right, by the way. Belcher was a complementary player in this defense and whoever replaces him will be the same. Using a premium asset to upgrade on him would've been stupid then, just as it would be stupid now.

But yeah, keep claiming omniscience.

I don't recall ever stating that the Chiefs should spend a first round pick on an ILB.

I did want them to select Daryl Washington or Sean Lee in the second and there's proof of that not only in the Official Draft Thread but elsewhere.

I hope not. It would be nice is the Chiefs replace him with an athletic 3 down ILBer. If not, TE's will continue to rape the Chiefs at will.


Premium, as in Top Ten? I absolutely agree. But a spending a second round pick on a talented ILB would be ideal.

Riiiight.

So, these claims are false and don't mean a thing?

Belcher came into contact with campus police three times prior to the lockout, all between the weekend hours of 1 and 2 a.m.

During December of Belcher’s freshman year, a resident assistant in Androscoggin Hall called for assistance to a third-floor bathroom because Belcher “was ill and slow to respond to his questions,” according a report filed by officer James I. Batchelder, who described “no signs of drug or alcohol use.”

Four months later, Sgt. Scott Curtis responded to the same dormitory and found Belcher being treated by the university volunteer ambulance corps (UVAC) for a “possible severed thumb and lacerations to the wrist,” Curtis wrote.

“I was told that Belcher was upset over a girl and punched a window out,” the report continued. “There was a lot of blood outside of the west entrance and in the lobby.”

http://www.pressherald.com/news/Jova...-at-Maine.html

Males? No.

You missed the point. His oldest friends in New York had no idea that he was so into guns.

The bottom line is that the guy wasn't "right". He acted completely "normal" around his football teams, coaches and in school but outside of that element, it appears that he had anger issues, drug and alcohol issues and a violent streak.

And no, I don't think you just dismiss the fact that he punched through a window and may or may not have severed his thumb. All I can say about that is that I sincerely hope that if my daughters are ever involved with a young man that displays such anger, they turn and run the other way as fast as they can.

YOu are reading WAY too much into this Dane. That's far from a violent streak. He was a young athlete, give me a break. Most guys with any testosterone at all punch something in there youth. It appears he drank too much, lots of people do. Drugs are really unsubstantiated at this point. We have way too much scrutiny in this country truth be known.

So he got sick once (unrelated to drugs or alcohol), broke a window, and had a noise complaint but was never even arrested, let alone charged or convicted?

Sound the alarms. We can't have players on our team like this.

Is that what I said?

No, it's not what I said. So, why are you quoting me?

No. You just heavily implied it. I especially liked the "may or may not have severed his thumb" comment as if we don't know if he lost his thumb.

Judging by his friends comments and reading other things I wonder if Belcher had Schizophrenia?

No, I did not. I'm pretty good about stating my exact thoughts here in this forum and no where did you read such words.

:shake:

That's because there have been conflicting or incomplete reports. An EMT stated on Twitter that he completely severed his thumb and was re-attached. Other articles haven't gone that far and have referred to it as being cut.

I know those 911 operators are trained to do their thing but if I ever call them I can assure you the only thing I will be telling them is what I want to when I want to.

I think it's very apparent that he had a personality disorder.

But it would be surprising, IMO, for him to be suffering from schizophrenia considering the amount of time he'd spent around medical personnel, along with scores of football players and coaches over the past eight years.

I think you need to re-read my comments from this thread. While I didn't literally say he "sucked", my comments are rather clear on the subject, as were yours.

And at no point did I advocate for an ILB first round draft choice.

Never, ever, ever, ever.

He's dead. Let the guy rest in his suckitude. He was invisible in pass coverage, but at this point who cares.

Oh by the end, after spending a day trying to get everyone to argue in favor of straw men they never made, you came around to a sane position and I left the thread as my point had been made:

But sure, now you're going to try to claim that you were arguing all along that he sucked.

Make up your mind, Dane.

I'll stand by everything I said in that thread as true then and accurate even now. We had far more pressing needs on that team that needed to be filled and Belcher showed plenty of potential to fill the TED backer in this scheme, especially with how we used the TED.

And that's probably the most useful wrap-up of them all.

Belcher never did improve a lick in pass-coverage. He became a stout and dependable run-support interior backer. In fact, he remained a viable starter, especially if he could've gotten a little more help from Berry. Being a top 10 run-support ILB as the TED in this system is nothing to sneeze about and suggests a guy that was doing his job a hell of a lot more often than he wasn't.

On balance he was a flawed, but passable linebacker. He didn't suck on balance, he just sucked in coverage.

And now he's dead, so who cares?

I'm the one who said he sucked. Me, Milk, and Boss would always debate about him.

Last year I kept saying over and over that Belcher was the weak link in our linebacking corps because of his lack of pass coverage skills. He also got a lot of stupid late hit penalties. I got flamed real bad on here for having that opinion. Now they'll have to draft a linebacker, because Siler won't cut it as a starter in that spot.

Belcher was easily our weakest LBer by the time Houston took over the job last year. That doesn't mean he was garbage.

We had 2 very good 2-way backers in DJ and Houston. We had another premier pass-rusher that wasn't asked to do much in the way of coverage in Hali and we had another guy in Belcher that was a very strong run defender. His 'strength' wasn't as critical as Hali's strength, so it went underrated.

I don't see how anyone could've argued that Belcher wasn't our weakest linebacker. But again, it's all a matter of resource scarcity and the ability to upgrade. Last season, when we had fewer weaknesses going into the draft and a clearer path to address them, was probably the time to do it.

I was banging the Mychal Kendricks drum myself. That all being said, Belcher was still an adequate backer until something could be done to address the coverage problem. The hope was that Berry could take some pressure of him but clearly Berry has regressed immensely in that area.

Hell, look at the draft conversations before Belcher killed himself. People were still focusing on upgrading at QB, WR, CB, OLB and Safety before even considering talking about Belcher.

Until this shit hit the fan, Belcher was seen as an adequate stop-gap until opportunity met need. Every team in the NFL has at least a handful of starters exactly like that.

That's why we'll draft Manti Te'o.

Dude, I did a search and about 50 negative comments about Belcher were made by me.

I wanted Sean Lee and preferably Daryl Washington in the 2010 draft. There are plenty of negative comments I made throughout season 2010 if you care to search.

I realize that he was your "pet" and all but the guy just wasn't very good. He was a two-down backer that was a major liability in pass coverage. He was a glorified special teamer that was pushed into the starting position because Pioli failed, just like he has with so many other positions, to address the situation.

We will always disagree, so let's just agree to disagree.

Whoa there, Cowboy. I just checked and I immediately followed up with this:

I liked Daryl Washington quite a bit as well, actually. Him and Donald Butler were two of the guys that I was screeching about when we took McCluster...and then Arenas (I was extremely pissed when we passed on Butler for Arenas; I really liked him).

But you're grossly mis-characterizing the conversation here. You most assuredly haven't claimed that Belcher sucked all along. You did say that we needed to upgrade on him. I said he wasn't all-world, but we had more pressing concerns (and that with a kid that young, we'd be wise to see what we have first).

I don't have access to the PFF numbers, but I'll bet you they gave Belcher right at a starter's grade last year. And I know that Pro football reference's approximate value statistic also graded him as a starting caliber player.

I'll give you this - I'd have certainly taken an upgrade on him over the useless !@#$ing gimmick players we took in McCluster and Arenas. Had you told me that we wouldn't bother to address the myriad of holes we had on the defense at the time, I'd have gone ahead and signed off on upgrading on Belcher instead of taking an injury-prone scat-back, that's for damn sure.

Yes you did, which was the nuanced version of what you were saying earlier in the thread.

I tried to point out there you were offering truisms at that point - it always makes sense to try to upgrade on players. But where you and I disagreed was on just how pressing the need was.

How ironic is it that the title of that pic is "Stanfords-Skov-charged-with-DUI"?

ROFL

I absolutely agree

Steelers linebacker James Harrison has never been afraid to take an unpopular stand.

But the avid gun collector said Wednesday that the fault for last weekend’s murder-suicide in Kansas City was with Chiefs linebacker Jovan Belcher and not the gun he used to kill his girlfriend and then himself.

“It’s a big issue as far as what happened and everything, it’s a sad story,” Harrison told USA Today’s Jim Corbett. “But the fact of it being part of the guns. . . . They want to say it’s guns and all this other stuff. It’s ridiculous. He did it. And he alone is responsible for it. It has nothing to do with the guns.

“Somebody goes out and kills somebody with a knife, you going to blame the knife? Somebody goes out and kills somebody by pushing somebody in front of a train, you going to start cutting off the guy’s arms? You going to start blaming people’s arms now? It’s the person who did it who is responsible.”

Harrison said he’s long been “fascinated” by guns, and that he owns around 20. He was pictured in Men’s Journal magazine with a pair of handguns across his chest, and insists that individuals need to be able to protect themselves.

“It’s not an athlete thing, it’s a human thing,” Harrison said. “If you go and say, ‘All right, now we’re going to take guns away from everybody, and the only person who is going to have guns are the police.’ . . . if that was a good thing and that’s actually how it would go, then that would work.

“But the two people who are going to have the guns then are the police and the criminals. So now I know I can break into every house in the country that doesn’t have a gun in it because they’re no longer allowed to carry handguns. That’s not going to solve things. It’s only going to cause more problems.”

Harrison’s stance, and taking it today, might not be considered particularly sensitive. And many won’t agree.

But the only Amendment that comes before the Second is the First, giving him the right to his opinion as much as others who have used the tragedy in Kansas City as a chance to win political ground from the other direction.

Harrison Rocks!!!

Harrison is a mongoloid dip-shit.

But a stopped clock is right twice a day. I agree with him on this one.