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-   -   Chiefs Veach is the best GM in the NFL (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=332394)

staylor26 10-12-2021 10:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tredadda (Post 15891517)
You are arguing with a guy who's avatar is a picture of Wolverine looking at Dorsey, a GM that has been fired by not one, but two franchises and currently can't get a GM job. There's an old saying about arguing with fools.

In regards to Veach, he isn't perfect but he has done a fairly good job so far. He has missed on picks as all GMs do. What I think is fascinating and overlooked in the Clark situation is how he was signed to a five year deal that is more like a three year deal. If Clark performed like Veach hoped he would, we get five great years out of him. If he doesn't then we cut bait after three with almost no financial impact. No one (outside armchair GMs with the benefit of hindsight) could have predicted Clark would fall this far this fast. He's at an age where he should be hitting his prime.

It's funny to me that Veach's haters talk about he sucks drafting with high picks and then wig out when he trades those picks away. I guess it's just easier to look dreamily at a former GM who was fired twice. At least the Ballard drums have been silenced given how bad Indy is this year. I genuinely wonder who his haters would prefer outside of the twice fired Dorsey.
People don’t seem to understand how hard it is to be a great GM.

There isn’t somebody that fits the unrealistic expectations somebody has if they think Veach sucks. It’s just that simple. If you think he sucks, you would be firing GM’s left and right.

The unfortunate thing is that there’s a lot of luck involved too. I’m almost certain we’d be talking about guys like Thornhill and Gay as huge hits if it weren’t for injuries. Even then, the book isn’t exactly written on those guys either.

Then you have guys like Sneed and Niang who obviously have had their struggles this year, but considering where they were drafted and the obvious potential, they could just as easily be hits down the road. Sneed in particular is being written off way too quickly. He hasn’t been nearly as bad as people make it seem.

I also think guys like Danna and Fenton don’t get enough credit. Those are the kind of guys you want in the late rounds. Those are absolutely “hits” to anybody that knows what they’re talking about.

Nnadi is also a guy that is 100% a “hit”. If you go back and look at that draft, he’s easily one of the best picks on day 2. It was a truly awful group, not just Breeland Speaks.

tredadda 10-12-2021 10:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecca (Post 15891525)
Blowing a first round RB pick is just insane though. Had they taken Higgins or Shenault that's wat more defensible.
Still the 32nd pick on a team that had very few holes and could afford to take a chance on him. It's not like he was a Saquon or Fournette. Receiver at the time was not a need. They still had Watkins and Hardman came off a solid rookie season.

tredadda 10-12-2021 10:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by staylor26 (Post 15891530)
People don’t seem to understand how hard it is to be a great GM.

There isn’t somebody that fits the unrealistic expectations somebody has if they think Veach sucks. It’s just that simple. If you think he sucks, you would be firing GM’s left and right.

The unfortunate thing is that there’s a lot of luck involved too. I’m almost certain we’d be talking about guys like Thornhill and Gay as huge hits if it weren’t for injuries. Even then, the book isn’t exactly written on those guys either.

Then you have guys like Sneed and Niang who obviously have had their struggles this year, but considering where they were drafted and the obvious potential, they could just as easily be hits down the road. Sneed in particular is being written off way too quickly. He hasn’t been nearly as bad as people make it seem.

I also think guys like Danna and Fenton don’t get enough credit. Those are the kind of guys you want in the late rounds. Those are absolutely “hits” to anybody that knows what they’re talking about.

Nnadi is also a guy that is 100% a “hit”. If you go back and look at that draft, he’s easily one of the best picks on day 2. It was a truly awful group, not just Breeland Speaks.
No one had issues with the Thornhill pick until now and some think he's a bust. He was playing very well pre injury and if he never gets back to there, it's hard to put that on any GM considering that you can't predict that. If Gay could shed his Watkins disease and get his mind right, he could still be a stud. No issues with the Sneed pick right now as it would be hard to look good in the secondary when the Dline generates no pressure at all.

So far it's looking like the Creed and Trey picks are outstanding. Worry not though if they struggle any you can expect more Veach sucks comments from a few. The comments will typically be "Veach is terrible because he drafted Creed or Trey when he should have drafted ______". No one will come out right now and call either a bust, they will wait till later (if it happens) and say "I told you so".

chiefzilla1501 10-12-2021 11:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRM08 (Post 15891495)
I'm not sure how much of a clean slate it's going to be. Mahomes, Tyreek, and Kelce are all going to have higher cap hits in the future. Much higher than right now in the case of Mahomes. It seems like a lot of the "bad" money on guys like Clark/Hitchens is just going to shift to the Big Three (Mahomes in particular).

It's pretty obvious that Veach is very aggressive and he gave a strong effort to fix the OL during this past offseason. I hope he can do something similar with the defense, WR corps, RB corps. So far there have been a lot of busts in those areas lately. He has his work cut out for him. I hope he can have major success fixing these issues.
Bulk of our bad super bowl bandaid contracts go away next year. Hitchens, Clark, duvarney tariff. Then you have jarran Reed. You're talking $45m contracts. And last year is proof that it should be good enough to work for us. I still believe a lot of our regression this year is misuse of talent.

If he turned around our defense and OL in one offseason, he can improve our defense too. The bigger question is if spags can turn this thing around. If he can't, then it doesn't matter what players yoh bring in.

PAChiefsGuy 10-13-2021 03:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by staylor26 (Post 15891530)
People don’t seem to understand how hard it is to be a great GM.

There isn’t somebody that fits the unrealistic expectations somebody has if they think Veach sucks. It’s just that simple. If you think he sucks, you would be firing GM’s left and right.

The unfortunate thing is that there’s a lot of luck involved too. I’m almost certain we’d be talking about guys like Thornhill and Gay as huge hits if it weren’t for injuries. Even then, the book isn’t exactly written on those guys either.

Then you have guys like Sneed and Niang who obviously have had their struggles this year, but considering where they were drafted and the obvious potential, they could just as easily be hits down the road. Sneed in particular is being written off way too quickly. He hasn’t been nearly as bad as people make it seem.

I also think guys like Danna and Fenton don’t get enough credit. Those are the kind of guys you want in the late rounds. Those are absolutely “hits” to anybody that knows what they’re talking about.

Nnadi is also a guy that is 100% a “hit”. If you go back and look at that draft, he’s easily one of the best picks on day 2. It was a truly awful group, not just Breeland Speaks.
Oh you do understand how hard it is to be a GM? How would you know?

Stfu.. Veach came into a situation most NFL GMs would dream of... as years have gone on w him as a GM the team is getting worse, not better. That's not sign of a good GM.

JPH83 10-13-2021 04:59 AM
I think this partly depends on what your expectations are for draft picks in different rounds and where in those rounds they land. Same with FA acquistions and trades. A lot of this you can read either way based on that. If you think any R1 or R2 pick should be an immediate top player, he's drafted poorly.

On trades, if you think Clark was vital to get an SB and a single SB is good enough with Mahomes, it's a good trade. If you think there was another DE who could've offered more then and now, he's been dreadful.

The case in defence of Veach was the original defensive rebuild, and then Creed and Smith this year. You could also say he's been unlucky with injuries and poor coaching decisions relating to Gay and Thornhill.

The case against is - which picks have been regular, top level contributors to this team? Which players traded for are making this team better right now or performing well? That might not all be on him. As others have said, there's obvious issues with coaching, scheme, injuries. But it's less flattering.

JPH83 10-13-2021 05:01 AM
Would also agree with people saying that some of the later round picks have been valuable contributors and probably offered more than you should expect from those picks.

srvy 10-13-2021 06:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by comochiefsfan (Post 15891411)
Look, I appreciate what Clark did during that run. He played well for three days. He helped us win. I still think we would've won without him, but he undoubtedly played a role.

My main thing is that I am deeply concerned about the direction of this franchise. We have the QB in place. I'm not sure where we stand on the coach long term and I don't think we have the answer at GM right now.

So major question marks at two crucial spots.

Reid is in declining health, he won't be here much longer and frankly I'm beginning to wonder how much gas he has left anyway. A succession plan needs to be formulating in Clark's mind.

As far as the GM, Brett Veach ain't it guys. I'm embellishing a bit but I honestly think the guy is a turd.

He whiffed on Frank Clark and gave him a **** ton of money, he whiffed on the entire 2018 draft. He whiffed on the entire 2019 draft. Sneed looked promising last year but seems to have regressed this season. Besides that, 2020 looks like a bust. 21 has some good pieces in Creed and Trey Smith, and Bolton isn't bad but the jury is still out in the long run.

He dumped a bunch of money into the defense and it's the worst in the league, he's failed to replace Kareem Hunt, he's failed to provide Mahomes with viable weapons outside of Hill and Kelce and he's had 3 years to do it.

At best the team has stagnated under his watch, but now the backward slide looks like it's beginning and we're an injury from Hill or Kelce away from it getting REAL ugly.

This team has very little talent outside of the superstars John Dorsey drafted. Those guys will only be able to carry us for so long. When they can't anymore, then what? Veach hasn't been able to infuse any significant talent into this team on his own. There's no one waiting in the wings. The cupboard is startlingly bare.

And that's my biggest issue with Veach. Anyone can find a Mike Pennel, or a Bashaud Breeland. Small moves to supplement a team. But Veach hasn't added IMPACT players to this team. Mathieu has been good, but besides that, we haven't added an elite player to this roster since Veach took over. And you need those guys to win big in this league.

You can hate John Dorsey all you want, but he added Kelce, Hill, Mahomes, Jones, Schwartz, Hunt and Peters in 5 years. 7 elite players. And 6 of those were drafted. Two were first round picks and none of them were higher than 10th overall. So I don't want to hear any excuses about where Veach has been picking.

The way Veach is handling the draft and this roster is not sustainable, it WILL catch up to us, and it's going to be what ends up wasting Mahomes' prime which is an absolute shame.

We've all been willing to put our heads in the sand while we've been winning big on the back of Dorsey's players. We've tricked ourselves in believing that Mahomes doesn't need anyone else and can do it all on his own.

But he needs help and Veach simply isn't giving him enough. I know no one wants to hear it, but don't say I didn't warn you.
Dorsey is now a consultant with the Eagles. The guy wears his welcome out fast. There is a reason he does some good work but cant hold a GM job.

DJ's left nut 10-13-2021 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by staylor26 (Post 15891530)
People don’t seem to understand how hard it is to be a great GM.

There isn’t somebody that fits the unrealistic expectations somebody has if they think Veach sucks. It’s just that simple. If you think he sucks, you would be firing GM’s left and right.

The unfortunate thing is that there’s a lot of luck involved too. I’m almost certain we’d be talking about guys like Thornhill and Gay as huge hits if it weren’t for injuries. Even then, the book isn’t exactly written on those guys either.

Then you have guys like Sneed and Niang who obviously have had their struggles this year, but considering where they were drafted and the obvious potential, they could just as easily be hits down the road. Sneed in particular is being written off way too quickly. He hasn’t been nearly as bad as people make it seem.

I also think guys like Danna and Fenton don’t get enough credit. Those are the kind of guys you want in the late rounds. Those are absolutely “hits” to anybody that knows what they’re talking about.

Nnadi is also a guy that is 100% a “hit”. If you go back and look at that draft, he’s easily one of the best picks on day 2. It was a truly awful group, not just Breeland Speaks.
Here's the issue - you're citing an awful lot of solid to unspectacular players here.

At the present clip in about 3 years this teams going to be Mahomes, an aging Hill/Kelce, and a massive pile of mediocre.

That's a 10 win football team.

Yes, Nnadi is absolutely a hit. So are Sneed and Niang. But unless Sneed rediscovers his form, none of those guys are cornerstone players. Bolton isn't a cornerstone player even if he develops how you'd like. Humphrey might be but the positional value holds him back.

At some point he's gotta start back-filling for players that are going to age out on him. And not merely solid players - he needs to find some great ones.

Otherwise this team's going to atrophy into a good but not great football team and it will have happened on his watch.

There's a path to winning on nothing but singles hitters (the Royals did it, afterall) but it requires that you never strike out or ground into a double play. Veach is finding his singles hitters but he's also striking out a fair bit. He's either got up his hit rate or his hits have to be bigger.

Right now he's looking pretty fungible.

JPH83 10-13-2021 08:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 15891788)
Here's the issue - you're citing an awful lot of solid to unspectacular players here.

At the present clip in about 3 years this teams going to be Mahomes, an aging Hill/Kelce, and a massive pile of mediocre.

That's a 10 win football team.

Yes, Nnadi is absolutely a hit. So are Sneed and Niang. But unless Sneed rediscovers his form, none of those guys are cornerstone players. Bolton isn't a cornerstone player even if he develops how you'd like. Humphrey might be but the positional value holds him back.

At some point he's gotta start back-filling for players that are going to age out on him. And not merely solid players - he needs to find some great ones.

Otherwise this team's going to atrophy into a good but not great football team and it will have happened on his watch.

There's a path to winning on nothing but singles hitters (the Royals did it, afterall) but it requires that you never strike out or ground into a double play. Veach is finding his singles hitters but he's also striking out a fair bit. He's either got up his hit rate or his hits have to be bigger.

Right now he's looking pretty fungible.
Agree with all of this, including the point re Creed's positional value. He's also reaping what he sowed with trades and cap space, and FA decisions. It's one thing finding good players through trades, it's another hitting on top players with rookie contracts. He's going to have to hit on a R1 pick soon.

It might be too early to write off Sneed, Thornhill, Gay, Niang, CEH etc. But it's also far too early to claim them as successes given how little they've been able to contribute this far. I'd say Nnadi probably has the best case for a sustained, positive impact on the team from earlier round picks.

staylor26 10-13-2021 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 15891788)
Here's the issue - you're citing an awful lot of solid to unspectacular players here.

At the present clip in about 3 years this teams going to be Mahomes, an aging Hill/Kelce, and a massive pile of mediocre.

That's a 10 win football team.

Yes, Nnadi is absolutely a hit. So are Sneed and Niang. But unless Sneed rediscovers his form, none of those guys are cornerstone players. Bolton isn't a cornerstone player even if he develops how you'd like. Humphrey might be but the positional value holds him back.

At some point he's gotta start back-filling for players that are going to age out on him. And not merely solid players - he needs to find some great ones.

Otherwise this team's going to atrophy into a good but not great football team and it will have happened on his watch.

There's a path to winning on nothing but singles hitters (the Royals did it, afterall) but it requires that you never strike out or ground into a double play. Veach is finding his singles hitters but he's also striking out a fair bit. He's either got up his hit rate or his hits have to be bigger.

Right now he's looking pretty fungible.
I still think guys like Gay, Niang, Sneed, and even Thornhill have that kind of upside (cornerstones), but they obviously aren’t there yet. Most of those guys have played just 5 games into year 2. Not many guys develop into cornerstone players THAT fast.

I also think it’s hard to find those guys when you’re drafting without a 1st round pick almost every year. Yes, I know Kelce and Hill were drafted outside of the 1st, but they’re obviously exceptions to the rule and we were extremely lucky to get them where we did.

I get it, until he does you can just sit there and say he can’t, but I have no doubt that you will be proven wrong that he can’t in time. This team is entering an entire new phase with Mahomes no longer on a rookie deal, and it seems inevitable that they start to build more through the draft as opposed to making big trades. Veach’s drafts have gotten better and better, and I have full confidence that he will put a few good ones together over the next few years.

staylor26 10-13-2021 09:38 AM
Also DJ, let’s talk about your boy Ballard…

How many cornerstone players does he have to show for with an extra year and much more to work with in terms of draft capital?

That ****ing dude is still living off of his Nelson and Leonard draft, yet I don’t see you being nearly as critical of him.

DJ's left nut 10-13-2021 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by staylor26 (Post 15891893)
Also DJ, let’s talk about your boy Ballard…

How many cornerstone players does he have to show for with an extra year and much more to work with in terms of draft capital?

That’s ****ing dude is still living off of his Nelson and Leonard draft, yet I don’t see you being nearly as critical of him.
And Smith. And that Nelson/Leonard/Smith draft was exceptional so yeah, he gets a lot of credit for that.

Okereke is looking like an awfully good player and Ya Sin is showing in fits and starts. Wouldn't you like having Julian Blackmon on this team right now? Michael Pittman Jr? And I don't think CEH vs. Jonathan Taylor is worth additional discussion at the moment.

Ballard entered an organization only to see his franchise QB immediately retire because his OL murdered him. Veach had one in his pocket on a rookie deal with 2 HoF pass-catchers and a pair of bookend pro-bowl tackles.

Their respective starting points couldn't have been more dissimilar. And yes, the Chiefs have had more success than the Colts but it's not because of things Veach has done in that time period. It's because of the foundation he started with.

I don't think Ballard's draft record is the argument I'd be trying to make - it's been better than Veach's. Now I do think there's a chance that Veach closes the gap this year as I wasn't wildly impressed with the Colts draft. They've got a lot riding on Paye in this draft. And when we talk about picks being traded away - we moved a first and 2nd for Frank Clark. They moved a 1st for DeForest Buckner, who was an absolute stud for them last year and looks just as good this year.

I have a hard time coming up with an argument that Ballard hasn't out-performed Veach to this point when their respective decisions are viewed in a vacuum.

staylor26 10-13-2021 09:50 AM
So, Ballard is better than Veach because of his first draft, which he had a top 10 pick to work with?

Because there’s no way you’re going to tell me that guys like Michael Pittman, Bobby Okereke, Julian Blackmon are that much better than guys like Sneed, Bolton, Humphrey, Gay, Smith, Niang etc.

Yes, he’s had some solid picks since that draft, but it’s not remarkably better than what Veach has done through the draft at the same time. That’s with a huge difference in draft capital too.

comochiefsfan 10-13-2021 09:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 15891906)
And Smith. And that Nelson/Leonard/Smith draft was exceptional so yeah, he gets a lot of credit for that.

Okereke is looking like an awfully good player and Ya Sin is showing in fits and starts. Wouldn't you like having Julian Blackmon on this team right now? Michael Pittman Jr? And I don't think CEH vs. Jonathan Taylor is worth additional discussion at the moment.

Ballard entered an organization only to see his franchise QB immediately retire because his OL murdered him. Veach had one in his pocket on a rookie deal with 2 HoF pass-catchers and a pair of bookend pro-bowl tackles.

Their respective starting points couldn't have been more dissimilar. And yes, the Chiefs have had more success than the Colts but it's not because of things Veach has done in that time period. It's because of the foundation he started with.

I don't think Ballard's draft record is the argument I'd be trying to make - it's been better than Veach's. Now I do think there's a chance that Veach closes the gap this year as I wasn't wildly impressed with the Colts draft. They've got a lot riding on Paye in this draft. And when we talk about picks being traded away - we moved a first and 2nd for Frank Clark. They moved a 1st for DeForest Buckner, who was an absolute stud for them last year and looks just as good this year.

I have a hard time coming up with an argument that Ballard hasn't out-performed Veach to this point when their respective decisions are viewed in a vacuum.
Ballard has built a hell of a foundation in Indy.

He's going to have to make a move for a QB soon, but he's 100% better than Veach.

The truth is that I believe Hunt and Reid didn't want either Dorsey or Ballard here. Those guys are too competent at their jobs and wouldn't have tolerated being 100% deferential to anything that Andy wants which Veach is.

Andy got his feelings hurt when Dorsey cut Maclin without asking his permission.

Hunt got pissed when Dorsey pushed back on signing Berry to a big contract.

Those two decided they wanted complete and unquestioned control and so they pushed out the two competent GMs on the roster and installed a Yes Man stooge in Veach who they could tell to do whatever they wanted.

They played up the fact that Veach was the scout on Mahomes in order to trick the fans into thinking he was some sort of savant young GM and have since been content to let him Piledrive this roster into the ground, as long as he doesn't question their authority.

Reid is a great coach, but he also has a huge ego and Hunt is infatuated with Andy.

Because of that, we kicked two of the best talent evaluators in the league out the door and installed a dud. Great organizations check their egos at the door and are able to work together in order to achieve something greater than themselves.

Reid and Hunt couldn't do that and that's what is ultimately going to doom this potential dynasty.

If I'm Hunt, I'm begging Dorsey to come back. It's not too late if we act after this season. But if we wait too long then Mahomes' prime is going to pass by with only one ring and we're going to be left wondering what if.

The Franchise 10-13-2021 10:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by comochiefsfan (Post 15891919)
Ballard has built a hell of a foundation in Indy.

He's going to have to make a move for a QB soon, but he's 100% better than Veach.

The truth is that I believe Hunt and Reid didn't want either Dorsey or Ballard here. Those guys are too competent at their jobs and wouldn't have tolerated being 100% deferential to anything that Andy wants which Veach is.

Andy got his feelings hurt when Dorsey cut Maclin without asking his permission.

Hunt got pissed when Dorsey pushed back on signing Berry to a big contract.

Those two decided they wanted complete and unquestioned control and so they pushed out the two competent GMs on the roster and installed a Yes Man stooge in Veach who they could tell to do whatever they wanted.

They played up the fact that Veach was the scout on Mahomes in order to trick the fans into thinking he was some sort of savant young GM and have since been content to let him Piledrive this roster into the ground, as long as he doesn't question their authority.

Reid is a great coach, but he also has a huge ego and Hunt is infatuated with Andy.

Because of that, we kicked two of the best talent evaluators in the league out the door and installed a dud. Great organizations check their egos at the door and are able to work together in order to achieve something greater than themselves.

Reid and Hunt couldn't do that and that's what is ultimately going to doom this potential dynasty.
Holy shit.

DJ's left nut 10-13-2021 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by staylor26 (Post 15891911)
So, Ballard is better than Veach because of his first draft, which he had a top 10 pick to work with?

Because there’s no way you’re going to tell me that guys like Michael Pittman, Bobby Okereke, Julian Blackmon are that much better than guys like Sneed, Bolton, Humphrey, Gay, Smith, Niang etc.

Yes, he’s had some solid picks since that draft, but it’s not remarkably better than what Veach has done through the draft at the same time. That’s with a huge difference in draft capital too.
Like I said - this year's draft can really close things up in that regard. I really didn't understand what the Colts were trying to do with this draft and have said on multiple occasions that I loved the Chiefs draft this season.

But you've got some recency bias happening here. That first draft continues to count, does it not? It seems folly to write it off, especially for the "Veach is why we have Mahomes" crowd.

But would I trade our '19 and '20 drafts for the Colts '19 and '20 drafts? Yeah, I would.

Sassy Squatch 10-13-2021 10:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by comochiefsfan (Post 15891919)
Ballard has built a hell of a foundation in Indy.

He's going to have to make a move for a QB soon, but he's 100% better than Veach.

The truth is that I believe Hunt and Reid didn't want either Dorsey or Ballard here. Those guys are too competent at their jobs and wouldn't have tolerated being 100% deferential to anything that Andy wants which Veach is.

Andy got his feelings hurt when Dorsey cut Maclin without asking his permission.

Hunt got pissed when Dorsey pushed back on signing Berry to a big contract.

Those two decided they wanted complete and unquestioned control and so they pushed out the two competent GMs on the roster and installed a Yes Man stooge in Veach who they could tell to do whatever they wanted.

They played up the fact that Veach was the scout on Mahomes in order to trick the fans into thinking he was some sort of savant young GM and have since been content to let him Piledrive this roster into the ground, as long as he doesn't question their authority.

Reid is a great coach, but he also has a huge ego and Hunt is infatuated with Andy.

Because of that, we kicked two of the best talent evaluators in the league out the door and installed a dud. Great organizations check their egos at the door and are able to work together in order to achieve something greater than themselves.

Reid and Hunt couldn't do that and that's what is ultimately going to doom this potential dynasty.

If I'm Hunt, I'm begging Dorsey to come back. It's not too late if we act after this season. But if we wait too long then Mahomes' prime is going to pass by with only one ring and we're going to be left wondering what if.
LMAO I do love your invented narrative that Dorsey didn't want to sign Berry at all. He tried to sign him to a long term deal in 2016, contingent on Berry paying for an insurance policy that named the Chiefs as the benefactors. That's what pissed Berry off to the point that Hunt had to step in during the negotiations in 2017.

staylor26 10-13-2021 10:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 15891924)
Like I said - this year's draft can really close things up in that regard. I really didn't understand what the Colts were trying to do with this draft.

But you've got some recency bias happening here. That first draft continues to count, does it not? It seems folly to write it off, especially for the "Veach is why we have Mahomes" crowd.

But would I trade our '19 and '20 drafts for the Colts '19 and '20 drafts? Yeah, I would.
The first draft he had a top 10 pick to work with. That’s a huge difference compared to the draft capital that Veach has had in any of his drafts. Sure, it counts, but it’s also an apples to orange comparison.

And I love how even with a huge hit like Creed, it gets knocked down a notch for positional value, but nothing gets mentioned about Ballard having to spend a top 10 pick to get an All-Pro G, which was easily his best picked player.

staylor26 10-13-2021 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Franchise (Post 15891920)
Holy shit.
He’s so ****ing dumb and obnoxious that I’m just going to ignore him in regards to this discussion.

comochiefsfan 10-13-2021 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by staylor26 (Post 15891936)
He’s so ****ing dumb and obnoxious that I’m just going to ignore him in regards to this discussion.
Deep down you know I'm right.

It's undoubtedly an uncomfortable reality to face, I get it.

I wanted to believe in Veach too. But the guy is a moron and the sooner we get him out the sooner we can get this roster turned around.

I have no doubt John Dorsey would rather be a GM than a consultant. He's the first guy I'd call.

tredadda 10-13-2021 10:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 15891924)
Like I said - this year's draft can really close things up in that regard. I really didn't understand what the Colts were trying to do with this draft and have said on multiple occasions that I loved the Chiefs draft this season.

But you've got some recency bias happening here. That first draft continues to count, does it not? It seems folly to write it off, especially for the "Veach is why we have Mahomes" crowd.

But would I trade our '19 and '20 drafts for the Colts '19 and '20 drafts? Yeah, I would.
Didn't he draft Nelson, a guard, #6 overall? I swear I have heard on here that you never do that. Or does this not count because Nelson is good? We are freaking out because we took CEH #32 overall because you don't take a RB there, but Ballard is a genius because he took a guard #6 (even if he is an All Pro). Seems like a strange standard to apply.

DJ's left nut 10-13-2021 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by staylor26 (Post 15891933)
The first draft he had a top 10 pick to work with. That’s a huge difference compared to the draft capital that Veach has had in any of his drafts. Sure, it counts, but it’s also an apples to orange comparison.

And I love how even with a huge hit like Creed, it gets knocked down a notch for positional value, but nothing gets mentioned about Ballard having to spend a top 10 pick to get an All-Pro G, which was easily his best picked player.
Darius Leonard was his best pick in that draft and was a MASSIVE feather in his cap. It was a Chris Jones caliber pick.

And who knocked Creed down a notch? I said it's hard for a C to be a cornerstone player. Look at the market for Cs vs. Gs - guards are clearly more highly valued in the league. I couldn't explain to you why, but the market makes it clear that teams see Gs as more important players.

And even at that, Nelson had a hell of a tough road to being a real franchise type player at G. He managed it because he made the All Pro team his first 3 years in the league. He hasn't just been good, he's been exceptional.

I don't know how many guys have EVER done that, but it can't be more than a dozen. Maybe Zack Martin or Patrick Willis in recent history? Nelson has been a HoF caliber player from the moment he took the field.

tredadda 10-13-2021 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by comochiefsfan (Post 15891947)
Deep down you know I'm right.

It's undoubtedly an uncomfortable reality to face, I get it.

I wanted to believe in Veach too. But the guy is a moron and the sooner we get him out the sooner we can get this roster turned around.

I have no doubt John Dorsey would rather be a GM than a consultant. He's the first guy I'd call.
The man has been fired twice and you still want him? My goodness you can't make this up.

The Franchise 10-13-2021 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 15891957)
Darius Leonard was his best pick in that draft and was a MASSIVE feather in his cap. It was a Chris Jones caliber pick.

And who knocked Creed down a notch? I said it's hard for a C to be a cornerstone player. Look at the market for Cs vs. Gs - guards are clearly more highly valued in the league. I couldn't explain to you why, but the market makes it clear that teams see Gs as more important players.

And even at that, Nelson had a hell of a tough road to being a real franchise type player at G. He managed it because he made the All Pro team his first 3 years in the league. He hasn't just been good, he's been exceptional.

I don't know how many guys have EVER done that, but it can't be more than a dozen. Maybe Zack Martin or Patrick Willis in recent history? Nelson has been a HoF caliber player from the moment he took the field.
Nelson, IMO, was like Berry for us. It was a no brainer pick. He gets credit for taking him but I don’t view it as some genius move. Indy needed offensive line help and he had one of the best OGs available to him.

DJ's left nut 10-13-2021 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tredadda (Post 15891955)
Didn't he draft Nelson, a guard, #6 overall? I swear I have heard on here that you never do that. Or does this not count because Nelson is good? We are freaking out because we took CEH #32 overall because you don't take a RB there, but Ballard is a genius because he took a guard #6 (even if he is an All Pro). Seems like a strange standard to apply.
I mean I won't speak to anyone else's position.

I can go all the way back to my position regarding David DeCastro way back when that was a thing. If a guy like Chris Jones or Aaron Donald is capable of being a difference maker, then drafting a player that can neutralize a guy like that is equally impactful.

Now I will say that if you're taking a less impactful position that high, you'd better by god be right. If you're taking Tyson Jackson at #3, he'd better be a JJ Watt sort of 3-tech. If you're taking a G in the top 10, he'd better be an All-Pro. If he's merely a good player at a secondary position, you've busted that pick.

Chris Ballard got it right - Nelson is a stud.

staylor26 10-13-2021 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 15891957)
Darius Leonard was his best pick in that draft and was a MASSIVE feather in his cap. It was a Chris Jones caliber pick.

And who knocked Creed down a notch? I said it's hard for a C to be a cornerstone player. Look at the market for Cs vs. Gs - guards are clearly more highly valued in the league. I couldn't explain to you why, but the market makes it clear that teams see Gs as more important players.

And even at that, Nelson had a hell of a tough road to being a real franchise type player at G. He managed it because he made the All Pro team his first 3 years in the league. He hasn't just been good, he's been exceptional.

I don't know how many guys have EVER done that, but it can't be more than a dozen. Maybe Zack Martin or Patrick Willis in recent history? Nelson has been a HoF caliber player from the moment he took the field.
Trey Smith, 6th round pick.

Yea, he isn’t quite Nelson off the bat, but if we’re going to blow Ballard for the Nelson pick, then Veach deserves that plus a finger in the butt.

Sassy Squatch 10-13-2021 10:21 AM
Can't excuse Ballard for what he's done at QB. Overpaying Brissett and Rivers was one thing, but trading a potential first rounder you could've used for a QB to lock yourself to Wentz at his guaranteed $ was an absolutely horrendous move that has the potential to set that team back for a long, long time.

comochiefsfan 10-13-2021 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tredadda (Post 15891959)
The man has been fired twice and you still want him? My goodness you can't make this up.
Would I take back the guy who built our Super Bowl winning team?

Yeah I'd give him another chance.

DJ's left nut 10-13-2021 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Franchise (Post 15891967)
Nelson, IMO, was like Berry for us. It was a no brainer pick. He gets credit for taking him but I don’t view it as some genius move. Indy needed offensive line help and he had one of the best OGs available to him.
And that '18 draft speaks to what a catastrophe the Luck thing was for Ballard.

Let's say he goes out there and Luck simply didn't exist. He'd retired after his first injury. Does he take the chance on Josh Allen? Thinking you have a QB only to have him vanish on you does far more damage than never having one at all.

The '18 draft class has become really damn good. Now that Darnold is away from the Jets, he's looking like a quality QB and he's the 4th best quarterback out of that class. There were elite Gs, LBs (a TON of excellent LBs, in fact), WRs, DEs, DTs....just an insanely good draft class.

And Veach air-balled the whole damn thing...

staylor26 10-13-2021 10:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 15891990)
And that '18 draft speaks to what a catastrophe the Luck thing was for Ballard.

Let's say he goes out there and Luck simply didn't exist. He'd retired after his first injury. Does he take the chance on Josh Allen?

The '18 draft class has become really damn good. Now that Darnold is away from the Jets, he's looking like a quality QB and he's the 4th best quarterback out of that class. There were elite Gs, LBs (a TON of excellent LBs, in fact), WRs, DEs, DTs....just an insanely good draft class.

And Veach air-balled the whole damn thing...
Umm you clearly haven’t looked at rounds 2-3 of that draft because it’s ****ing awful outside of the top 40 or so.

Nnadi was easily one of the best players selected on day 2 and that’s not really a good thing.

DJ's left nut 10-13-2021 10:36 AM
Warner, Brown, Bates, Hubbard, Gallup, Chark, Bates, O'Neil, Whitehead, Andrews...

C'mon - that was a good draft.

The Franchise 10-13-2021 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 15891990)
And that '18 draft speaks to what a catastrophe the Luck thing was for Ballard.

Let's say he goes out there and Luck simply didn't exist. He'd retired after his first injury. Does he take the chance on Josh Allen? Thinking you have a QB only to have him vanish on you does far more damage than never having one at all.

The '18 draft class has become really damn good. Now that Darnold is away from the Jets, he's looking like a quality QB and he's the 4th best quarterback out of that class. There were elite Gs, LBs (a TON of excellent LBs, in fact), WRs, DEs, DTs....just an insanely good draft class.

And Veach air-balled the whole damn thing...
Oh he did for sure. A majority of people don’t think he’s this God of a GM. He’s made mistakes and it’s why we’re at where we are right now.

staylor26 10-13-2021 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 15892004)
Warner, Brown, Bates, Hubbard, Gallup, Chark, Bates, O'Neil, Whitehead, Andrews...

C'mon - that was a good draft.
You have Bates listed twice.

Whitehead was a round 4 pick.

Chark has had 1 good season, and has been pretty meh outside of it. Also just had a season ending injury.

The Chiefs weren’t taking a OT or TE on day 2 of that draft.

Warner, Bates, and Hubbard are the guys that you look at and say Veach should’ve drafted one.

KC Hawks 10-13-2021 11:07 AM
The positive with Veach is that each of his drafts are better than the previous one. He's definitely whiffed, but at least he's trending in the right direction.

It seems like he can admit his mistakes and will cut bait. Breeland Speaks would probably still be here if Scott Pioli was the GM.

RunKC 10-13-2021 11:20 AM
Malik Hooker was Ballard’s first pick and he’s a bust. Rock Ya Sin has 2 INT’s and 12 PD’s in 2.25 seasons. He’s not good.

Nelson was a no brained. A monkey could have made that pick. And yes Darius Leonard is great but what else?

And Carson Wentz is not looking good. $21 million for a guy that seems broken and is always hurt. The worst part is they are going to give the Eagles a 1st when he eclipses 75% playing time, so a 1st and 3rd for that.

At least Frank Clark was good enough to be a main component to winning a title. Ballard is not that good and his philosophy is that of Carl Peterson.

I would much rather take a risk and go after a QB/vital piece with resources than a broken down retread QB.

You’d think retread QB’s would be poison to a Chiefs fan after all these years.

RunKC 10-13-2021 11:24 AM
So basically if you think Frank Clark is a worse move than Carson Wentz…then man holy shit you’ve got to look at this for what it is and what the ROI was comparatively.

I will also not fault Veach for Thornhill. We know he’s a good player. That’s on the coaching staff for playing Sorenson over him. Thornhill was a good pick

DJ's left nut 10-13-2021 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunKC (Post 15892088)
Malik Hooker was Ballard’s first pick and he’s a bust. Rock Ya Sin has 2 INT’s and 12 PD’s in 2.25 seasons. He’s not good.
For what it's worth, Hooker was one of the best coverage safeties in the NFL before he blew out his knee (I think it was his knee) and never fully recovered.

You wanna see a worst case scenario for Thornhill? There's your answer.

I don't hold Thornhill against Veach and I don't think it's fair to do the same with Hooker.

Regarding Wentz - he looks okay right now. He's not at his 2017 MVP caliber form (and may never get there again), but he's appeared very similar to the 2019 version of himself that's an average starting QB.

Honestly I see the Wentz move and Clark move as 6 in one hand, half dozen in the other. I'd say Wentz has more upside by virtue of his previous heights and the importance of his position. He also has more downside due to the back issues. Ultimately though, his deal was quite a bit less onerous than Clarks because it really only has 2 years on it (plus a couple 'team option' sort of years thereafter).

The Chiefs needed a DE, they paid dearly for one and paid him at the top of the market for his position. The Colts needed a QB, they paid a steep price to get one and paid him roughly average for a starting QB in the league. Wentz had his back issues, Clark his wrist/elbow issues. Both guys appeared to be entering their prime years at positions of extreme need for the acquiring team.

I'm not really sure how you can draw much of a distinction between the two moves.

tredadda 10-13-2021 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 15891972)
I mean I won't speak to anyone else's position.

I can go all the way back to my position regarding David DeCastro way back when that was a thing. If a guy like Chris Jones or Aaron Donald is capable of being a difference maker, then drafting a player that can neutralize a guy like that is equally impactful.

Now I will say that if you're taking a less impactful position that high, you'd better by god be right. If you're taking Tyson Jackson at #3, he'd better be a JJ Watt sort of 3-tech. If you're taking a G in the top 10, he'd better be an All-Pro. If he's merely a good player at a secondary position, you've busted that pick.

Chris Ballard got it right - Nelson is a stud.
I was in camp DeCastro and I was routinely ridiculed because you don't take a guard in the first round regardless. That's what I am getting at. Either you do or you don't draft guards/RBs/centers in the first. You can't pick and choose when and call the guy doing it genius. Not saying you in particular, but just in general. This is how we get into the Veach sucks because CEH isn't as good as most hoped for.

-King- 10-13-2021 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tredadda (Post 15892280)
I was in camp DeCastro and I was routinely ridiculed because you don't take a guard in the first round regardless. That's what I am getting at. Either you do or you don't draft guards/RBs/centers in the first. You can't pick and choose when and call the guy doing it genius. Not saying you in particular, but just in general. This is how we get into the Veach sucks because CEH isn't as good as most hoped for.
DJ explained this already. If you're going to pick a position like that, they need to be GREAT. If CEH played like Jamaal Charles or Adrian Peterson, no one would care that we spent a first on him. But since he plays like Thomas Jones, it was a terrible pick.

DJ's left nut 10-13-2021 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by -King- (Post 15892292)
DJ explained this already. If you're going to pick a position like that, they need to be GREAT. If CEH played like Jamaal Charles or Adrian Peterson, no one would care that we spent a first on him. But since he plays like Thomas Jones, it was a terrible pick.
Right.

The issue being marginal value over replacement.

Finding an average guard really isn't that difficult. Finding an average RB isn't. Finding an average QB or LT or WR is.

So if you spend a 1st rounder on a G or HB, to get marginal value over replacement, that guy needs to be damn good. Not so at QB, WR, T. Average versions of those guys are still damn valuable.

So if you're going to take a position that requires higher levels of play to become truly scarce, then that player needs to play at that higher level or you haven't gotten decent value over replacement on your pick.

I don't see what's objectionable about this as it seems fairly self-evident.

DJ's left nut 10-13-2021 01:23 PM
That's the same discussion as it relates to Humphrey as well. Reiter was found on waivers and while Reiter wasn't worth a damn as a run blocker, he was a strong pass blocker. On the whole he was a roughly average C.

Now what could make Creed such a good pick is he might just be an All Pro caliber guy.

comochiefsfan 10-13-2021 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 15892302)
Right.

The issue being marginal value over replacement.

Finding an average guard really isn't that difficult. Finding an average RB isn't. Finding an average QB or LT or WR is.

So if you spend a 1st rounder on a G or HB, to get marginal value over replacement, that guy needs to be damn good. Not so at QB, WR, T. Average versions of those guys are still damn valuable.

So if you're going to take a position that requires higher levels of play to become truly scarce, then that player needs to play at that higher level or you haven't gotten decent value over replacement on your pick.

I don't see what's objectionable about this as it seems fairly self-evident.
I'm really not going to question a draft pick if he turns out to be an All-Pro, no matter what postion he plays and no matter where he was picked.

You need great players to win big in this league. Just get them however, whenever and wherever you can.

DJ's left nut 10-13-2021 02:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by comochiefsfan (Post 15892329)
I'm really not going to question a draft pick if he turns out to be an All-Pro, no matter what postion he plays and no matter where he was picked.

You need great players to win big in this league. Just get them however, whenever and wherever you can.
Nor do I - that's precisely my point.

kccrow 10-13-2021 04:54 PM
"Andy Reid told Philadelphia, I want two offensive tackles, a quarterback, two pass rushers, two corners, and I'll figure the rest out."

Veach needs to get to work on defense.

As for the coaches, I can't say I'm happy with the positional coaching with the DL and LBs. Never any development there. Alot of missed assignments and generally being lost. There's been solid development at CB, that's about it. It is past time to cut some bait with guys like Daly and House (I never did particularly like his addition).

-King- 10-13-2021 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kccrow (Post 15892618)
"Andy Reid told Philadelphia, I want two offensive tackles, a quarterback, two pass rushers, two corners, and I'll figure the rest out."

Veach needs to get to work on defense.

As for the coaches, I can't say I'm happy with the positional coaching with the DL and LBs. Never any development there. Alot of missed assignments and generally being lost. There's been solid development at CB, that's about it. It is past time to cut some bait with guys like Daly and House (I never did particularly like his addition).
I remember they were touted as being so good that we'd have to worry about teams poaching them for their DC positions.




I don't think we have to worry about that.

RunKC 10-13-2021 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by -King- (Post 15892620)
I remember they were touted as being so good that we'd have to worry about teams poaching them for their DC positions.




I don't think we have to worry about that.
Well Matt House has Hitchens and Neimann. Bolton has only played 5 games so he’s TBD (tho I like him) and Gay has barely played. You expect him to make shit talent like Neimann look great?

Daley has actually done well with Danna. He’s been a nice player. But Okafor’s old ass and Clark fading as well as Reed? I think that’s on the players more than coaching

RunKC 10-18-2021 10:01 AM
So do we need to bring up Veach’s picks since we win? Do we blow him his week?

Fenton was great, Humphrey was great, Smith was great, Bolton was good and his undrafted hit Wharton had a pick.

That’s how this works right? Best GM ever? LMAO

Hammock Parties 10-18-2021 11:31 AM
Trey
Creed
Thornhill
Sneed
Fenton

Veach's stars are emerging.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/Chiefs?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Chiefs</a> CB Rashad Fenton is the league&#39;s 2nd-highest-graded cornerback behind Casey Hayward via <a href="https://twitter.com/PFF?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@PFF</a>. Don’t sleep on <a href="https://twitter.com/_sleepp?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@_sleepp</a> ��⬇️��������*♂️<a href="https://t.co/rJpCNxi2p3">pic.twitter.com/rJpCNxi2p3</a></p>&mdash; Phillip V. McGruder (@McGruderPmac) <a href="https://twitter.com/McGruderPmac/status/1450150247225757700?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 18, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Pitt Gorilla 10-18-2021 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 15892302)
Right.

The issue being marginal value over replacement.

Finding an average guard really isn't that difficult. Finding an average RB isn't. Finding an average QB or LT or WR is.

So if you spend a 1st rounder on a G or HB, to get marginal value over replacement, that guy needs to be damn good. Not so at QB, WR, T. Average versions of those guys are still damn valuable.

So if you're going to take a position that requires higher levels of play to become truly scarce, then that player needs to play at that higher level or you haven't gotten decent value over replacement on your pick.

I don't see what's objectionable about this as it seems fairly self-evident.
That's the crazy part, IMO. The Chiefs' current active skill guys, outside of Mahomes, are all THIRD-round picks or later, including several UDFAs.

Mecca 10-18-2021 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla (Post 15901331)
That's the crazy part, IMO. The Chiefs' current active skill guys, outside of Mahomes, are all THIRD-round picks or later, including several UDFAs.
It's a pretty good example of how not putting stock into positional value you can bite you in the ass.

staylor26 10-18-2021 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock Parties (Post 15901312)
Trey
Creed
Thornhill
Sneed
Fenton

Veach's stars are emerging.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/Chiefs?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Chiefs</a> CB Rashad Fenton is the league&#39;s 2nd-highest-graded cornerback behind Casey Hayward via <a href="https://twitter.com/PFF?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@PFF</a>. Don’t sleep on <a href="https://twitter.com/_sleepp?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@_sleepp</a> ��⬇️��������*♂️<a href="https://t.co/rJpCNxi2p3">pic.twitter.com/rJpCNxi2p3</a></p>&mdash; Phillip V. McGruder (@McGruderPmac) <a href="https://twitter.com/McGruderPmac/status/1450150247225757700?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 18, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
He needs to stay on the field when Ward returns.

Sneed and Ward are your starters in base, and Fenton comes in for nickel/dime and Sneed slides inside.

ThaVirus 10-18-2021 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock Parties (Post 15901312)
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/Chiefs?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Chiefs</a> CB Rashad Fenton is the league&#39;s 2nd-highest-graded cornerback behind Casey Hayward via <a href="https://twitter.com/PFF?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@PFF</a>. Don’t sleep on <a href="https://twitter.com/_sleepp?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@_sleepp</a> ��⬇️��������*♂️<a href="https://t.co/rJpCNxi2p3">pic.twitter.com/rJpCNxi2p3</a></p>&mdash; Phillip V. McGruder (@McGruderPmac) <a href="https://twitter.com/McGruderPmac/status/1450150247225757700?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 18, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
He's such a DB. He's literally incapable of not wagging his finger if a ball falls incomplete lol

Hammock Parties 10-18-2021 12:03 PM
This corner group is so good.

Sneed
Ward
Fenton
Hughes

All can start if need be.

Your 5th corner was a 1st round pick.

NICE!!!

O.city 10-18-2021 12:33 PM
The issue with CEH was always gonna be just his physical ability. He produced at LSU on a crazy loaded offense that tossed it around alot.

But physically, what sets him apart from any of the other RB's drafted in the top 3 rounds of that draft?

Titty Meat 10-18-2021 12:36 PM
0 sacks for the 2nd straight week. Cant do this in the playoffs hopefully Jones stays 100% healthy

O.city 10-18-2021 12:37 PM
Clark atleast was there yesterday and seemed to play with effort. So yeah, that's good.

RealSNR 10-18-2021 12:41 PM
I'm not saying Daly should be free from criticism, but does anybody know how to really judge a position coach's value? Is it just by what he does with talent he's given? Is it results on the field?

Because if that's the case, then you know who you could make an argument for being a pretty good DL coach? Britt Reid. The guy was told to make it work with random off-the-street free agents like Kendall Reyes and nobodies like Rakeem Nunez-Roches, and he did a pretty good job of it. The DL during those early Sutton years wasn't perfect, but it did get production from the players that would cycle in and out for the most part.

And no, I'm not about to claim that Britt Reid was a great DL coach. Only that the real story on whether a position coach is any good or not is more complicated than just the results you see, even if there's been a regression.

I'm more inclined to believe that Spags or somebody from higher up gave the ok on Operation Jones-at-DE. I doubt that was Daly's brainchild even though it turned into his project. Some of the bullshit we've seen with lack of coordination/communication on defense seems to partly be because of players thinking too hard or forgetting details of complicated set-ups and coverages. And while it's Daly's job to coach and have players ready to play when their number is called, it's not the greatest if you've got an albatross like Frank Clark and your most productive edge guy is Mike Danna.

staylor26 10-18-2021 12:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titty Meat (Post 15901428)
0 sacks for the 2nd straight week. Cant do this in the playoffs hopefully Jones stays 100% healthy
I don’t think the sack totals tell the entire story.

The pass rush was noticeably better.

Pitt Gorilla 10-18-2021 12:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecca (Post 15901337)
It's a pretty good example of how not putting stock into positional value you can bite you in the ass.
I'm not sure about that. Reek and Kelce were 5th and 3rd round picks respectively. Hardman, Pringle, and Robinson are the next three in terms of receptions, with Hardman in the Top 50 in the NFL.

Our offense has been pretty good without a first-round receiver.

New World Order 10-18-2021 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by staylor26 (Post 15901345)
He needs to stay on the field when Ward returns.

Sneed and Ward are your starters in base, and Fenton comes in for nickel/dime and Sneed slides inside.
If Fenton is playing this well then it should be Fenton/Sneed then move Sneed inside when they go to Nickel.

JPH83 10-18-2021 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by New World Order (Post 15901445)
If Fenton is playing this well then it should be Fenton/Sneed then move Sneed inside when they go to Nickel.
Honestly think there's a case for this, either way I feel like Ward might be the poorest performer of that group so far. Said awhile back I thought Fenton deserved more snaps, but to be honest I was thinking more in the slot. He actually looks excellent everywhere.

I actually feel like our DBs might be decent and so far have just been asked to cover for far too long due to the putrid pass rush. Thr only real time I've felt they looked out of their depth was against the Chargers. I think Hughes is good but we've got noone to go up against a big bodied receiver like Williams.

Chief Pagan 10-18-2021 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla (Post 15901331)
That's the crazy part, IMO. The Chiefs' current active skill guys, outside of Mahomes, are all THIRD-round picks or later, including several UDFAs.
So if each year, KC traded completely out of the first and second round, how many third round picks could they get?

:hmmm:

saphojunkie 10-19-2021 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecca (Post 15901337)
It's a pretty good example of how not putting stock into positional value you can bite you in the ass.
syntax error

Pasta Little Brioni 10-19-2021 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla (Post 15901443)
I'm not sure about that. Reek and Kelce were 5th and 3rd round picks respectively. Hardman, Pringle, and Robinson are the next three in terms of receptions, with Hardman in the Top 50 in the NFL.

Our offense has been pretty good without a first-round receiver.
It's hilarious. We have the best offense in the league even WITH a million turnovers.m and people bitch about the offensive talent. Truly incredible. I blame fantasy football and Madden and paint chips for the complete clueless dumbass takes like that.

lcarus 10-19-2021 09:23 PM
Didn't want to make a new thread for this, so I'll post it here. I got curious how well the Chiefs have fared at home over the years. Since 1990, the Chiefs are 166-85 at home. If you take out the awful 2007 through 2012 (Herm, Haley, Crennel) they're 149-52.

That's including the 1-2 home record of this season which is why it's an odd number of games. It's only regular season games as well.

KChiefs1 10-24-2021 01:23 PM
I believe Veach plays apart in this season too.


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JPH83 10-24-2021 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KChiefs1 (Post 15911197)
I believe Veach plays apart in this season too.


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I've honestly no idea why so many people seem to be willing to criticise every aspect of the team and coaching but will go to the wall to defend Veach.

carcosa 10-24-2021 01:25 PM
We uh, might want to have a good draft after this season, idk

comochiefsfan 10-24-2021 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KChiefs1 (Post 15911197)
I believe Veach plays apart in this season too.


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No shit.

No team in the league has added less talent to the roster since he took over as GM.

The dude is a ****ing fraud who has been given an absurdly long rope from the fan base because of the Mahomes fairy tale and the fact that we've been winning with Dorsey's core.

I've been saying this for weeks.

JPH83 10-24-2021 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by comochiefsfan (Post 15911237)
No shit.

No team in the league has added less talent to the roster since he took over as GM.

The dude is a ****ing fraud who has been given an absurdly long rope from the fan base because of the Mahomes fairy tale and the fact that we've been winning with Dorsey's core.

I've been saying this for weeks.
I mean at the very least I reckon we can say it is definitely debateable now that he is the best GM in the NFL.

Marco Polo 10-24-2021 01:30 PM
Winning cures all. Eventually trading high picks for increased salary commitments (without on field production) or wasting picks for RB or trading down isn't working.

OKchiefs 10-24-2021 01:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by comochiefsfan (Post 15911237)
No shit.

No team in the league has added less talent to the roster since he took over as GM.

The dude is a ****ing fraud who has been given an absurdly long rope from the fan base because of the Mahomes fairy tale and the fact that we've been winning with Dorsey's core.

I've been saying this for weeks.
Don’t worry, the shitstain OP will be along with some excuse.

comochiefsfan 10-24-2021 01:31 PM
Pat looks like a rookie in the pocket.

Happy feet and eyes dropping.

Its really sad. He's clearly thinking on every single dropback.

-King- 10-24-2021 01:41 PM
**** him. Hes ****ing trash and now the LT he traded for got Mahomes concussed. The Ravens played him like a fiddle.

He's a dumb shitty GM that only looks good because idiots lied to themselves into believing he had anything to do with picking Mahomes.

Titty Meat 10-24-2021 01:43 PM
this is a historically bad CP thread

TEX 10-24-2021 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by -King- (Post 15911456)
**** him. Hes ****ing trash and now the LT he traded for got Mahomes concussed. The Ravens played him like a fiddle.

He's a dumb shitty GM that only looks good because idiots lied to themselves into believing he had anything to do with picking Mahomes.
This is looking more and more likely...

TEX 10-24-2021 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by comochiefsfan (Post 15911285)
Pat looks like a rookie in the pocket.

Happy feet and eyes dropping.

Its really sad. He's clearly thinking on every single dropback.
Because he knows the protection is going to break down. Orlando Brown IS ****ING TERRIBLE.

comochiefsfan 10-24-2021 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by -King- (Post 15911456)
**** him. Hes ****ing trash and now the LT he traded for got Mahomes concussed. The Ravens played him like a fiddle.

He's a dumb shitty GM that only looks good because idiots lied to themselves into believing he had anything to do with picking Mahomes.
THANK YOU

kcclone 10-24-2021 01:47 PM
He might not be the worst GM in the NFL but certainly bottom half. You probably have to fire Reid to get rid of Veach though, because Veach is simply an extension of Andy.


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